NJ Passes public workers health/pension reform

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Well, i can sincerely say that i want to be a teacher. However, the fact remains if i still continue on my path i will probably have to live well below my means for the rest of my life. I was fine with giving up the fact i will never have abundant funds, but it looks like if i continue on my path of becoming a teacher i will never be able to support a family without breaking my back and having 3 jobs. I went to school and obtained an excellent education so i could have the opportunity to live a well balanced life...but that will not happen if i become a NJ teacher.

 

People can **** and moan all they want about physical education teachers, but that fact is and most seem to neglect is that all teachers are summed into one. Meaning, i as a science teacher, who broke my a** getting through school, and then through the certification program, will be getting paid probably less then a phys ed teacher. why? because he will be the one picking up paid activities while i'm prepping for tomorrows class or grading.

 

People ask why public workers should have sense of security in there jobs? Well it could be argues both ways and goes back to my point above. I would like to be paid for what i feel i have earned, not what i feel i am entitled to. If NJ would like good teachers then they need to offer good incentives, you ever wonder why NJ is in a rut with science teachers? because they can easily find jobs in the private sector which pay abundantly more.

 

If people understood how the firing and hiring process works in the public sector you would probably have a different perspective on tenure. Let me put it this way, i am the president of the board of education and my niece just obtained her teaching certification and needs a job, scenario a) no tenure, fire a teacher and give her his job. scenario b) with tenure, hire her as a sub and have her go through the same process every other teacher goes through, earn your stripes. While tenure protects bad teachers in the system, it also keeps bad people from taking advantage of there positions with in the system. Also, would u want schools that have teachers who cannot speak their minds in fear of being fired? Say my principal was anti-2a, i now have to fear or hide my passion for firearms or else i could be fired. Yes this is all in the private sector i know, but that doesn't mean its right. And it goes back to the point that the private sector complains about, we dont have xyz so why should you.

 

The whole system needs an over hauling, but again NJ is clumping everyone together and neglecting to put blame on those responsible.

 

The reason i bring this up is because i am seriously thinking about either teaching in another state, or dropping it as a whole. I can clearly see that NJ has no interest in education, they just care about the bottom line and dont care who covers it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I think the biggest problem I have with the education community is their refusal to accept reality... if you do not understand that you are part of a broken system then I don't really know what to say.. sure.. there are THOUSANDS of you who wake up every day and do a great job.. try really hard.. and are truly devoted to your profession.. then there are the rest of you.. who are lazy.. in it for the security that comes with doing a job well for a little bit.. and then being allowed to become completely useless for the rest of your life.. all the while relying on the union to get them all they are "entitled" to.. have summers and holidays off.. benefits.. and so on..

 

 

want to be taken more seriously? want people to not group you into the lump with all the bad.. then do something about it.. change the system from within.. actions like that will get people to take you seriously... if the "good teachers" would turn on the union and all of the "bad teachers" and do some house cleaning.. I bet you would see the level of respect go through the roof.. but as long as the "good teachers" roll over and play compliant with the BS system.. no respect is given..

[XDJohnTact 49]

Jack, I taught for 35 years and had a second job for 35 years as well. You do what you have to do. Do I regret my time teaching, absolutely not! Sure, I had administrators that were a-holes and a few students as well. It you are luck enough to get into a good system (ours was listed as a "Top 100 HS in America" and a "Blue Ribbon School", we had a 98% post HS Education rate, etc.), it will be worth it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

The whole system needs an over hauling,

 

 

I agree.. completely..

[lunker 274]

Jack,

 

You seem earnest in your desire to be a teacher. New Jersey needs good science teachers, as does the rest of our country, since we seem to lead the world in self-esteem but trail it in hard sciences and math education. I was a science teacher (majored in Physics), had friends and relatives (mother & sister) who are current or retired teachers. I certainly did not enter the teaching profession with a negative attitude. None of this prepared me for the combination of entitled attitudes, apathy, and laziness I experienced when teaching. There were plenty of good teachers, but they either didn't want to rock the boat or simply became numb to the incompetence around them. The other big thing that bothered me was the lack of any scientific rigor when it came to teaching methods and curriculum. Everything was touchy-feely. The newest thing was always the best thing. Our department never relied on something as mundane as statistics that would have borne out the efficacy of whatever we were trying. I hope your experience is better.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Jack,

 

You seem earnest in your desire to be a teacher. New Jersey needs good science teachers, as does the rest of our country, since we seem to lead the world in self-esteem but trail it in hard sciences and math education. I was a science teacher (majored in Physics), had friends and relatives (mother & sister) who are current or retired teachers. I certainly did not enter the teaching profession with a negative attitude. None of this prepared me for the combination of entitled attitudes, apathy, and laziness I experienced when teaching. There were plenty of good teachers, but they either didn't want to rock the boat or simply became numb to the incompetence around them. The other big thing that bothered me was the lack of any scientific rigor when it came to teaching methods and curriculum. Everything was touchy-feely. The newest thing was always the best thing. Our department never relied on something as mundane as statistics that would have borne out the efficacy of whatever we were trying. I hope your experience is better.

I am a few months off from obtaining my advanced certification, and whats getting under my skin is the price difference in what was paid to become a teacher, and what i will probably be making as a teacher. NJ wants to put us through the ringer in respect to what you need to become certified. I think its great because it weeds out a lot of the dead wood and it's a considerable amount of work considering a 4yr degree on top of that. In respect to other public workers there is a huge gap in what is needed to obtain employment.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

My girlfriend is a teacher as well - a good one. She graduated from Rutgers with her Master's in Math education. Her starting salary is in the low 40's.. that's ok and all - not a lot, but not too bad. Unfortunately, because of the recent financial woes, they cut all of the teachers from the bottom, instead of cutting from the bloated administration and the bad teachers with tenure..... that means she was cut. Now - who would you rather have teach your kids? A younger teacher who has the latest schooling and is eager to teach..... or a chair-filler that has been working there for 50 years? And yes - the school she was let go from has a math teacher that's been teaching for 50 years. I've seen her too - she looks so old she might drop any time.

[lunker 274]

My girlfriend is a teacher as well - a good one. She graduated from Rutgers with her Master's in Math education. Her starting salary is in the low 40's.. that's ok and all - not a lot, but not too bad. Unfortunately, because of the recent financial woes, they cut all of the teachers from the bottom, instead of cutting from the bloated administration and the bad teachers with tenure..... that means she was cut. Now - who would you rather have teach your kids? A younger teacher who has the latest schooling and is eager to teach..... or a chair-filler that has been working there for 50 years? And yes - the school she was let go from has a math teacher that's been teaching for 50 years. I've seen her too - she looks so old she might drop any time.

 

"Last In, First Out" is one of those policies that make picking on the teacher's union an easy target. There is administrative bloat that could (and should) be gotten rid of, that never is. Worst of all, the administration will start cancelling the most popular sports and programs (or start charging for them) in order to foment rage from parents. It is made to seem as if there was no other choice, when there are plenty of other areas that could be trimmed first.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

My girlfriend is a teacher as well - a good one. She graduated from Rutgers with her Master's in Math education. Her starting salary is in the low 40's.. that's ok and all - not a lot, but not too bad. Unfortunately, because of the recent financial woes, they cut all of the teachers from the bottom, instead of cutting from the bloated administration and the bad teachers with tenure..... that means she was cut. Now - who would you rather have teach your kids? A younger teacher who has the latest schooling and is eager to teach..... or a chair-filler that has been working there for 50 years? And yes - the school she was let go from has a math teacher that's been teaching for 50 years. I've seen her too - she looks so old she might drop any time.

It is a damn shame, especially when u have the old timers who barely know how to use a computer or phone, and resist to incorporate any technology in the classroom. Not sure where she is located but there are plenty of math and science positions in NJ. Some of the schools i have been working in are looking for the young blood and pushing out the old. It's just a shame that in order to push out the old u need to sacrifice from the young. It wasn't until all of this pension scare that people started to retire.

 

I was just recently in a school where they had grandfathered teachers, who are not certified in science, yet there teaching science.... and complaining about it!!! They wouldn't have a job if they started working today.

 

This may sound off to some, but the only thing keeping me pushing towards this profession is my financial situation and the fact i have been enjoying teaching within the certification program. I have been lucky in that i live at home and have most expenses paid for me, and that i live near great education systems. I strongly feel that if i wasn't in a state school and had loans and pressing financial obligations i would not be able to justify continuing.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

If you guys know of any place relatively close to Linden that's hiring, please let me know. She's interviewing but nothing's concrete yet. It's a damned shame - she was let go last year, then worked as a maternity leave teacher with no benefits... and she needs them too. Sigh. One school said they would hire her full time, and gave her a verbal offer.... then went back on their word. Unfortunately she knows now to get it on paper... too late.... sigh.

[vladtepes 1,060]

In all fairness to those that have been there for "50 years" not all "old teachers" are bad just like all "new teachers" are not good.. each individual teacher should be considered based on performance NOT time served.. this is a career.. not a jail sentence..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

If you guys know of any place relatively close to Linden that's hiring, please let me know. She's interviewing but nothing's concrete yet. It's a damned shame - she was let go last year, then worked as a maternity leave teacher with no benefits... and she needs them too. Sigh. One school said they would hire her full time, and gave her a verbal offer.... then went back on their word. Unfortunately she knows now to get it on paper... too late.... sigh.

Most schools open up positions towards august when they realize they have the funds. Has she been on NJ Hire? Also many districts put up employment opportunities on the schools web sites.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

In all fairness to those that have been there for "50 years" not all "old teachers" are bad just like all "new teachers" are not good.. each individual teacher should be considered based on performance NOT time served.. this is a career.. not a jail sentence..

 

Of course, but I met the person I was talking about, and my GF was a teacher there - she knew how well that teacher performed.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

In all fairness to those that have been there for "50 years" not all "old teachers" are bad just like all "new teachers" are not good.. each individual teacher should be considered based on performance NOT time served.. this is a career.. not a jail sentence..

It's something that everyone wants(us good folks, and especially the math and science teachers), but no one seems to be able to create. In order to consider teachers based on performance means considerable amounts of time need to be spend with the person being evaluated, and it needs to be consistent and evaluated frequently. Teacher performance is something u need to evaluate through the teacher, not the students or any other factor. A teacher in Paterson may be a hella lot better then one in ramsey, but may have nothing to show for it, while ramsey has some of the highest scoring students in the country.

These are things that people seem most interested in which the state ignores. CC bloats all the time about this, but it seems to be more orientated towards the bad teachers then the good ones.

 

The other thing is the pronounced blame on teachers, we have just as many bad LEO and public workers out there that need to be trimmed off.

[XDJohnTact 49]

Nick, PM inbound!

[Springfield1911 22]

This bill is just good ole fashion union busting. Thats it. Chris Christie will not even consider any compromise put forth by any of the unions. I totally agree with Mark WVU. It seemed like everyone only gave a crap when the economy went down the toilet but the politicians on both sides were signing these contracts left and right years ago when the economy was great. How about consolidating the school districts? Why does every town need 1 high paid superintendent ? They always go after the guys making less money. I totally agree that the spending got out of control with these sweet heart union contracts but why is Christie showing so much hate toward the teachers??? He makes it seem like a large percentage of teachers are underperforming and this is just not the case. I don't care where you work. There will always be some idiot underperforming that skates by without getting fired for a long time. The teacher bashing is just out of hand.

[vladtepes 1,060]

It's something that everyone wants(us good folks, and especially the math and science teachers), but no one seems to be able to create. In order to consider teachers based on performance means considerable amounts of time need to be spend with the person being evaluated, and it needs to be consistent and evaluated frequently. Teacher performance is something u need to evaluate through the teacher, not the students or any other factor. A teacher in Paterson may be a hella lot better then one in ramsey, but may have nothing to show for it, while ramsey has some of the highest scoring students in the country.

These are things that people seem most interested in which the state ignores.

 

 

I agree to some extent.. but at the end of the day your job as a teacher is to teach children.. not the easy ones.. not the smart ones.. not the bad ones.. ALL OF THEM.. and thus performance should be evaluated by looking at the children.. if you are a teacher.. and you don't feel you are up to the challenge that a "bad low scoring area" offers than don't teach there.. we can not as a nation just ignore the bad.. label them unteachable.. and give the "teachers" a free pass to stand around and pretend to teach when they are not.. with that all said there has to be SOME consideration given to the environment.. years teaching.. students.. etc.. but it has to be a balance.. you can not say "these kids scored high so the teacher is good" but in the same breath you can't say "that teacher shouldn't really be judged based on production since it is a tough area"

 

at the end of the day you have a job to do.. one in which you must be made accountable.. you see how well the present system works? MOST people I communicate with who are within that high school type age bracket are just about brain dead.. so without dramatic change across the board... and the ENTIRE education system being held accountable.. NOTHING will change..

 

just imagine if a cop went to work and said..

"I know it is my job to chase criminals.. but this guy looked really mean.. so I felt the challenge presented was far too difficult.. I ended up just letting him slide through to avoid the work..."

 

or maybe a bank teller..

"yeah I was going to count that money before accepting the deposit.. but all the bills were out of order.. and the effort to fix it was just too much.. but I am a really nice person.. so judge me on that instead.."

[vladtepes 1,060]

why is Christie showing so much hate toward the teachers???

 

probably because they belong to a hard headed union that has gone out of its way to slander him in every conceivable fashion.. coupled with their lack of interest in compromise.. that is just a guess though..

[XDJohnTact 49]

:thsmiley_deadhorse: I believe Christie started this fight, not the NJEA.

[Old School 611]

:thsmiley_deadhorse: I believe Christie started this fight, not the NJEA.

 

PM inbound.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

ill tell a quick story. I wont say which school. My friend is on the union board for the school. Basically, a teacher with a lot of years was asked to moved to another school to boost math grades. Technically, she has no say and should just do what she is told. She does not want to move, so she got a lawyer. Why get a lawyer if she doesnt have a say you ask? Her goal is to have the board look at the scheduling. She says there are a lot of other teachers that can do the job that only have a couple of classes to teach a day. So i ask my friend whats the big deal if the board sees the schedule. His response was that if they do, they will realize that they can get rid of 6 positions. SIX people that are not really needed. At my company, we do not have anyone that is not truly needed. Now i understand wanting to protect friends jobs, but 6? That is a definite waste of tax payer dollars. They will end up bowing to this woman to save the 6 jobs. He said he asked her if she knew what would happen, and her response was, I don't care. This is the kind of stuff that is killing the tax payer.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

ill tell a quick story. I wont say which school. My friend is on the union board for the school. Basically, a teacher with a lot of years was asked to moved to another school to boost math grades. Technically, she has no say and should just do what she is told. She does not want to move, so she got a lawyer. Why get a lawyer if she doesnt have a say you ask? Her goal is to have the board look at the scheduling. She says there are a lot of other teachers that can do the job that only have a couple of classes to teach a day. So i ask my friend whats the big deal if the board sees the schedule. His response was that if they do, they will realize that they can get rid of 6 positions. SIX people that are not really needed. At my company, we do not have anyone that is not truly needed. Now i understand wanting to protect friends jobs, but 6? That is a definite waste of tax payer dollars. They will end up bowing to this woman to save the 6 jobs. He said he asked her if she knew what would happen, and her response was, I don't care. This is the kind of stuff that is killing the tax payer.

 

Of course - there's the sense of entitlement again! Plus the "it's all about me" attitude.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I agree to some extent.. but at the end of the day your job as a teacher is to teach children.. not the easy ones.. not the smart ones.. not the bad ones.. ALL OF THEM.. and thus performance should be evaluated by looking at the children.. if you are a teacher.. and you don't feel you are up to the challenge that a "bad low scoring area" offers than don't teach there.. we can not as a nation just ignore the bad.. label them unteachable.. and give the "teachers" a free pass to stand around and pretend to teach when they are not.. with that all said there has to be SOME consideration given to the environment.. years teaching.. students.. etc.. but it has to be a balance.. you can not say "these kids scored high so the teacher is good" but in the same breath you can't say "that teacher shouldn't really be judged based on production since it is a tough area"

 

at the end of the day you have a job to do.. one in which you must be made accountable.. you see how well the present system works? MOST people I communicate with who are within that high school type age bracket are just about brain dead.. so without dramatic change across the board... and the ENTIRE education system being held accountable.. NOTHING will change..

 

just imagine if a cop went to work and said..

"I know it is my job to chase criminals.. but this guy looked really mean.. so I felt the challenge presented was far too difficult.. I ended up just letting him slide through to avoid the work..."

 

or maybe a bank teller..

"yeah I was going to count that money before accepting the deposit.. but all the bills were out of order.. and the effort to fix it was just too much.. but I am a really nice person.. so judge me on that instead.."

I fail to see what your saying... I'm get the gist of it but the issue is that.... low scoring area will score low and vice verse. About the only way to plot student improvement is to have a pre-testing system and a post-testing system.... It's not about people not wanting to teach in urban low scoring areas, its just that there is a performance gap which is a huge factor in teaching... If your students are reading on a 1st grade level in the 6th grade are you expected to have them at a 7th grade reading level by the end of the year? If not, your below student performance achievements, even if you get them to a 5th grade reading level.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Of course - there's the sense of entitlement again! Plus the "it's all about me" attitude.

The school could easily RIF them if there not needed, or put them to work. I dont know this woman, but if she was a good teacher and had a full days worth of classes why would they move her and not someone else who clearly has the time to do so, i thinks it fair to question why she's being moved. And the board of education knows the schedules and i'm pretty sure most districts budgets are under a microscope. I read through some of the Paterson districts minutes and they were hiring and firing people across the board, eliminating positions entirely and so forth.

 

Not sure if you guys remember, but recently there was a teacher in paterson, who wasnt even really a teacher, she was moved from an tech resource job to a teaching position, she put all the crap up on face book and got fired for it. They were trying to eliminate a useless job and wound up with a useless teacher, thank god they were able to have one dumb enough to get herself fired.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

Because she is a good math teacher and they want to boost scores. My point is really that these sort of things should be looked at monthly. Why would it take someone threatening to call in the board to look at a schedule when they should be already. I understand people need jobs, but if they are not truly needed, what is the right thing to do?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I fail to see what your saying... I'm get the gist of it but the issue is that.... low scoring area will score low and vice verse. About the only way to plot student improvement is to have a pre-testing system and a post-testing system.... It's not about people not wanting to teach in urban low scoring areas, its just that there is a performance gap which is a huge factor in teaching... If your students are reading on a 1st grade level in the 6th grade are you expected to have them at a 7th grade reading level by the end of the year? If not, your below student performance achievements, even if you get them to a 5th grade reading level.

 

 

the problem is that many of the teachers who I am friends with and have had this discussion with almost IMMEDIATELY discount factoring student performance when evaluating the teachers.. they firmly state that some kids just dont want to be there.. some kids are unteachable.. and so on (the excuses are endless).. and they do not want that factor to be "on them", in a poorly reflecting kind of way.. and I on the other hand think that student performance is KEY in evaluating teachers.. because irregardless of how difficult the pupil is.. it is your JOB to educate them.. when I don't do my job.. I don't get paid..

 

and since you brought it up I'll bite.. what is the CORE problem that amounts to the difference in teaching a student born in an wealthy neighborhood.. and one from the inner city? are not all individuals equal? I see it as a cop out to hold one individual to a lower standard simply because he was born in a different area..

 

 

maybe if these kids are not learning the problem goes far beyond teachers.. unions.. politicians.. etc.. and we need to figure out why someone even gets to 6th grade without being up to the minimum standard... maybe we should stop passing kids through the system.. and actually get concerned with teaching them..

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

And the board of education knows the schedules and i'm pretty sure most districts budgets are under a microscope. I read through some of the Paterson districts minutes and they were hiring and firing people across the board, eliminating positions entirely and so forth.

 

 

He said they never question the schools schedule. Only if this woman causes a stink will they have to make a point of getting rid of non essential personnel.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

and since you brought it up I'll bite.. what is the CORE problem that amounts to the difference in teaching a student born in an wealthy neighborhood.. and one from the inner city? are not all individuals equal? I see it as a cop out to hold one individual to a lower standard simply because he was born in a different area..

 

maybe if these kids are not learning the problem goes far beyond teachers.. unions.. politicians.. etc.. and we need to figure out why someone even gets to 6th grade without being up to the minimum standard... maybe we should stop passing kids through the system.. and actually get concerned with teaching them..

 

Parenting. Final answer.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

He said they never question the schools schedule. Only if this woman causes a stink will they have to make a point of getting rid of non essential personnel.

Well, i'm not sure which district this is but many do not operate in such a manner. These are the things the board is supposed to be making decisions on.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

the problem is that many of the teachers who I am friends with and have had this discussion with almost IMMEDIATELY discount factoring student performance when evaluating the teachers.. they firmly state that some kids just dont want to be there.. some kids are unteachable.. and so on (the excuses are endless).. and they do not want that factor to be "on them", in a poorly reflecting kind of way.. and I on the other hand think that student performance is KEY in evaluating teachers.. because irregardless of how difficult the pupil is.. it is your JOB to educate them.. when I don't do my job.. I don't get paid..

 

and since you brought it up I'll bite.. what is the CORE problem that amounts to the difference in teaching a student born in an wealthy neighborhood.. and one from the inner city? are not all individuals equal? I see it as a cop out to hold one individual to a lower standard simply because he was born in a different area..

 

 

maybe if these kids are not learning the problem goes far beyond teachers.. unions.. politicians.. etc.. and we need to figure out why someone even gets to 6th grade without being up to the minimum standard... maybe we should stop passing kids through the system.. and actually get concerned with teaching them..

 

 

Parenting. Final answer.

Parenting is a big factor, but a lot lies within the legislation itself...no child left behind and so forth. A big factor in education is what happens in the classroom and outside. Is learning only an in school activity or something we as a society feel is an ongoing activity all day and through out life. I've seen kids who have failed consecutively year after year, ive seen a 17 year old in 8th grade.. and it's a shame. I've seen kids in the 6th and 7th grade who can't even read... how they got that far is beyond me..

We have seen plenty of people achieve in low income areas, and i've seen plenty of kids fail completely at life in the richest of areas, your house hold income seems to have little to do with success. I come from the mindset that anyone can learn, but they have to want to learn, i cant force someone to do something they dont want to do.