Any cap & ball revolver guys here?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Anybody here shoot cap & ball revolvers? Heres my new "front-stuffer", a Uberti 1858 remington, cant wait till I shoot it indoors

 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

You gonna smoke up the range at SCFGPA!

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

You gonna smoke up the range at SCFGPA!

 

 

Hell yeah

[Shane45 807]

I actually have several that I have inherited but I havent fired a single one of them.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

That's nice.

 

You use FFg or FFFg in it? Be sure to fill it to the rim!!

 

Here's my Ruger Old Army's;

 

 

Just picked up a Walker a few weeks back, gonna fill that son of a **** up with FFg and make it RAWR!!!

[MedicYeti 96]

I have a reproduction 1851 navy revolver. I have taken it to plate shoots with some success it's a fun gun.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I have one like that.. the instruction manual says to use 12 grains.. im sure it can take more, but also dont wanna blows off my fingers.

 

I use 3f for everything including rifles. Guys at the BP league told me that trick. Burns smoother.

[JETagent 1]

I have one like that.. the instruction manual says to use 12 grains.. im sure it can take more, but also dont wanna blows off my fingers.

 

I use 3f for everything including rifles. Guys at the BP league told me that trick. Burns smoother.

 

 

Damn, 12 grains and I'de be afraid the ball wouldnt make it out the barrel! My manual says 22-30 grains FFFg

BTW I'm GlennP, forgot to switch accounts again

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

I have one like that.. the instruction manual says to use 12 grains.. im sure it can take more, but also dont wanna blows off my fingers.

 

I use 3f for everything including rifles. Guys at the BP league told me that trick. Burns smoother.

 

12grains??? Geez.....why even get out of bed......

 

I've tried FFg and FFFg in my revolvers, and fouling was the same. Even with SWISS. A trick I was told, was to use magnum primers, but they're only available for cartridges, they give a bump of 5 to 10% ignition for hotter and cleaner burning, that's what the guys from The Maine Powder House told me.....

 

I'm gonna give FFFg a try in my rifle, gives a bigger BOOM.

 

Full house loads of FFFg in revolvers gives big BOOMS and nice concussions, but too much snap, so I stay with FFg.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I also have a colt walker navy arms repro.. the guys at the bp league said you can basically just fill the cylinder up with powder.. will take 50 or 60 grains if you want.. but i never pushed it that far.. lol

[Jersey Joe 4]

I bought a used, nickel plated Navy Arms 44 on a whim. I was buying some other guns from a guy and it looked neat(and cheap). Never shot it though. If you ever go shooting I would be into traveling along to see how it's done.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I bought a used, nickel plated Navy Arms 44 on a whim. I was buying some other guns from a guy and it looked neat(and cheap). Never shot it though. If you ever go shooting I would be into traveling along to see how it's done.

 

Ill probably hit the range this weekend in bridgewater. PM me if you want

[Jersey Joe 4]

Thanks Glenn. What would I need in terms of supplies? I assume caps, powder, patches, .44 cal projectiles? I have some black powder stuff I bought from a store going out of business so I'll have to see what it is. I think it's mostly for rifles though if there's a difference.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

You need:

 

.451 or .454 round balls (.454 is best)

FFFg black powder

Either wonder wads or natural grease

#10 or #11 caps, depending on the nipples (#11 if you are not sure)

 

You can just reimburse me for my supplies if you are missing something

 

Make sure to have a nipple wrench for cleaning at home

[GRIZ 3,369]

Either wonder wads or natural grease

 

Wads are neater but more expensive than grease. I use wheel bearing grease I put in a 100 ml syringe. I just squirt the grease over chambers and smooth it out with any available straight edge. Never any chain fire problems.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Either wonder wads or natural grease

 

Wads are neater but more expensive than grease. I use wheel bearing grease I put in a 100 ml syringe. I just squirt the grease over chambers and smooth it out with any available straight edge. Never any chain fire problems.

 

Wads are actually more accurate too. You should never use any petroleum oil or grease at all on a black powder gun because the fouling turns it into tar. The whole point of the grease over the ball is not to reduce chance of chain fire (assuming you are using properly sized balls) but its to keep fouling soft. You may as well omit that step if you are using wheel bearing grease. Chain fires are from poor fitting caps. you can put black powder OVER the ball and nothing else and still wont get a chain fire (this has been done). If you are feeling extra cheap use crisco (natural)

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Either wonder wads or natural grease

 

Wads are neater but more expensive than grease. I use wheel bearing grease I put in a 100 ml syringe. I just squirt the grease over chambers and smooth it out with any available straight edge. Never any chain fire problems.

 

 

If you're using petroleum based greased, hope your using a BP Sub, cause the sulpher in real black creates tar like glennp mentioned, and that can carmelize and give you plenty time to use up your elbow grease during cleaning.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Thanks Glenn. What would I need in terms of supplies? I assume caps, powder, patches, .44 cal projectiles? I have some black powder stuff I bought from a store going out of business so I'll have to see what it is. I think it's mostly for rifles though if there's a difference.

 

 

You need:

 

.451 or .454 round balls (.454 is best)

FFFg black powder

Either wonder wads or natural grease

#10 or #11 caps, depending on the nipples (#11 if you are not sure)

 

You can just reimburse me for my supplies if you are missing something

 

Make sure to have a nipple wrench for cleaning at home

 

You're best bet might actually to be to go with glennp and either reimb him, or buy him lunch or cold adult beverages after shooting, reason being, you might not have everything, or you might even purchase stuff you don't need. I had to teach myself over the past year cause nobody in my shooting circle knows, or knew anything about cap and ball shooting.

 

To expand on glennp's list of what you'll need;

 

Round Balls - If you have the box, or the manual for you're revolver, it will have the size ball needed listed. If not .454 would be a good bet.

Powder - If you're using real black you can use FFg (I use FFg in my Old Army's cause I use full house loads, FFFg has too much snap for my liking on full house loads) or FFFg. You can also use BP Subs, I don't know much about them, all I know is Triple Seven is about 15% hotter than real black, so it's highly recommended you cut the load on that stuff. APP is a very smokey BP sub.

 

If you go with real black, GOEX is most common and is usually the most affordable. Solomon's has it at a reasonable price, you should not pay too much, cause then it will be cheaper to fill out ATF forms, and have it shipped to your home. Dixon's Muzzleloading in PA has it, but it's too pricey. SWISS is high grade black that comes with a high grade price, long range shooters use it primarily.

 

I've been using GOEX for two years, no problems. Just sooty due to the extra graphite they use for moisture control. You have to *sock* it to get ride of the graphite dust.

 

Caps - I find Remmington's work best. CCI's have been on the small side, and are hard to seat, and you don't want too much pressure seating a cap other wise all hell can break loose. If you go with Remmingtion caps, they should all be a consistent green color, and questionable looking caps might not go off. If you're shooting on the clock, then it's guaranteed they won't go off.

 

Wad's or Lube - For lube, it goes over the balls and is used to keep the fouling in the barrel soft. Different muzzleloading shops carry different brands, I use Bore Butter. But since Bore Butter, and other lubes get soupy in the summer, and hard in the winter, I've been using lubed wads lately. Wonder Wads or Wads from Circle Fly work well. Some folks say the lube will funk of the powder when you seat the ball. May or not be true. I've never had a problem, nor has anybody I've met had a problem.

 

Capper - At some point you'll need a capper. You're not supposed to put caps on the nipples by hand, can cause BIG problems if it goes BOOM by accident.

 

Wooden Dowl, Pencil, or Pen - for seating the caps, after you put them on with the capper. Might seem redundant, but you put the caps on with the capper, and seat them snuggly with something non metal so they go off withW the first strike of the hammer.

 

Prepping your revolver - In the guts of gun, springs, trigger, sears, you can use regular gun oil, but it's highly recommended that you use natural grease or oil on the cylinder pin to prevent binding. I've used Olive Oil with no problems, other people I've met used whatever cooking oil they had in the kitchen, but I've recently switched to straight Ballistol. Some folks even use Bore Butter. I've recently heard of something called Frog Lube which I'm told is good too.

 

Clean Up - Soap and HOT water. Run the hot water from the breech to the muzzle, try not to let any get into the guts. Pipe Cleaners are good for cleaning out the nipples. QTips are good for getting in the bottoms of the chambers. If you use certain BP Subs, you might have to go back after a few days and double check your cleaning, some of them are more hygroscopic than real black. After using the HOT water, you can use Simple Green, Murphy's Oil Soap mixed with Peroxide and alcohol, or Windex with Vinegar to clean it all up. Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine is really good, but pricey if you're shooting as much real black as I do over the course of a month.

 

As you'll learn, the dark arts is a DIY venture.

 

Welcome to the fire, and enjoy the smoke.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Anybody here shoot cap & ball revolvers? Heres my new "front-stuffer", a Uberti 1858 remington, cant wait till I shoot it indoors

 

 

 

Glenn,

 

That sure is a nice box! If you or anyone else here wishes to shoot outside, just let me know! You can come to Old Bridge for rifle, shotgun, or pistol and shoot the Holy Black in all three!

 

I'm really new at this forum, but I have quite a lot of BP experience & willing to make new friends.

 

Dave

[GRIZ 3,369]

You should never use any petroleum oil or grease at all on a black powder gun because the fouling turns it into tar

 

If you're using petroleum based greased, hope your using a BP Sub, cause the sulpher in real black creates tar like glennp mentioned, and that can carmelize and give you plenty time to use up your elbow grease during cleaning.

 

Never heard of that but I suppose your right. I use FFFG. I don't see any extra problem cleaning and that may be due to the fact I clean immediately after firing. It works for me.

 

Chain fires are from poor fitting caps. you can put black powder OVER the ball and nothing else and still wont get a chain fire (this has been done).

 

How do you keep the powder in with nothing over it? I won't be trying that it sound s like a dangerous parlor trick. If you have a poorly fitting ball the grease prevents a chain fire. If you have a tight fitting ball you won't get a chain fire even without grease or an over powder wad. A chain fire can also be the result of poorly fitting caps.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

How do you keep the powder in with nothing over it? I won't be trying that it sound s like a dangerous parlor trick. If you have a poorly fitting ball the grease prevents a chain fire. If you have a tight fitting ball you won't get a chain fire even without grease or an over powder wad. A chain fire can also be the result of poorly fitting caps.

 

 

It was an experiment done to see if a chain fire from the front was possible. A cylinder was loaded like normal except grease and wad were left out, just a ball over powder. Black powder was poured over the upward facing cylinder (removed from the gun) and it was lit with a fuse. Numerous attempts did not fire any cylinders. .451 balls were also tried with same effect.

[GRIZ 3,369]

It was an experiment done to see if a chain fire from the front was possible. A cylinder was loaded like normal except grease and wad were left out, just a ball over powder. Black powder was poured over the upward facing cylinder (removed from the gun) and it was lit with a fuse. Numerous attempts did not fire any cylinders. .451 balls were also tried with same effect.

 

There may be some experimental bias in there. If you have a poorly fitting ball or load a cast ball with the sprue to the side you can have a chain fire. If you use a properly fitting ball for the cylinder you will not get a chain fire whether the ball is .451 or .454.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Found it!

 

 

All of us who shoot BP revolvers are aware of this problem. Usually we grease the chambers over the RB. Sometimes when doing a lot of fireing I have not done this. Never had a problem. Now here is an article that explores other possible causes for the chainfire. You decide, whatever you choose, shoot safe.

 

Multiple Discharges in Percussion Revolvers

 

Old myths can sometimes be hard to get rid of. Within the blackpowder sport there's also a few "truths" that shooters seem to assume are right. One example is the so called chainfire or multiple discharges in percussion revolvers. Many shooters believe that the chainfires are caused by to little or no grease over the balls in the chambers and that flames from a fired shot can pass the ball in a second chamber and ignite the powder thus causing a chain reaction. The result can be both unpleasant and dangerous, but I haven't heard of any serious injuries to shooters caused by chainfires.

 

Personally, I didn't think much over the reasons for chainfires the first years that I shot the cap and ball revolver. I was told that I had to grease the chamber mouths well with appropriate blackpowder grease and by doing so I would avoid any dangerous situations. But, when I was told how the old timers did it I began to doubt. Is it very likely that a flame can pass a lead ball that has been forced into the chamber? It didn't seem to be a problem in the old days. Samuel Colt said that it was impossible to get a chainfire in a revolver that was loaded properly. The old timers never used grease in front of the balls. This was probably something the shooters began doing in the 1960s when blackpowder shooting had its renaissance. It could be that it was about the same time that the myth of frontal chainfires was created.

 

 

 

I decided to try to prove that frontal chainfires virtually is impossible if the revolver is loaded the right way and started a small experiment. I used the cylinder on my 1858 Remington New Army .44 cal. First, I took the cylinder off the revolver and then bolted it on a large steel plate.The way I did it: I threaded a bolt all the way down to its head, drilled a hole for it in the plate and fastened the bolt with a nut. The bolt was just large enough so that I could slip the cylinder from my revolver over it and lock it with another nut. What I had was a cylinder bolted on a large steel plate.

 

 

The experiment was simple: I would try to provoke a chainfire from a chamber in a cap and ball revolver. I loaded one of the chambers in my Remington with 25 grains 3F blackpowder and a cast .454" roundball with no filler, wad or bullet lube in front of the ball. My intention was to make the round ignite from the "outside", in other words, make a flame pass the lead ball and ignite the main charge. I filled 3F blackpowder in front of the ball, made a fuse and lit it. Nothing happened except that the powder in front of the ball ignited. I tried this nine more times, and still the same results. For every second try I loaded a new ball. When nothing happened with the ten first I decided to go try a smaller .451" ball. I used exactly the same procedures. The .451" balls entered the chamber easily and I didn't have to use much pressure on the rammer to seat the balls. But still the main charges wouldn't ignite. The next day I tried some more variations. I loaded a .451" ball, loaded with the sprue to the side of the chamber wall and lit the fuse. Still no discharge after ten more attempts. I tried twenty more attempts, but still no discharge.

 

Then what is causing the multiple discharges? Probably loose fitting caps. If you drop a cap from the nipple of a loaded chamber there will be a large amount of flames around the nipple area when a shot is discharged. Some of these flames can find its way into the channel of an uncapped nipple and cause a chainfire. If you doubt this you can take a look at the small touch hole of a flintlock and the hot flame a percussion cap can make. It's pretty much the same principle. If you have an uncapped loaded chamber on a revolver while shooting you have, in my opinion, a bomb in your hand.

 

 

Then it was time to try to ignite the round from the opposite side of the cylinder: I loaded a .451" ball with no filler, wad or grease and put a small amount of 3F blackpowder on the neighbour chambers nipple area and lit the fuse. I did not put a cap on the nipples. Nothing happened, until I lit the fuse the 9th time. The loaded chamber went off with a bang.

 

 

But it isn't loose fitting caps only that can cause multiple discharges. If the nipples are too long the recoil can drive the cylinder back against the recoil shield and detonate the other caps. Perhaps this is the most likely explanation when several or all chambers ignite at the same time? Anyway, if you replace your nipples you should be aware of this. If they are too long you can easily file them shorter.

 

 

I don't know how much I should emphasize on this little experiment, but I'm pretty sure that people should pay more attention to the caps when shooting cap and ball revolvers instead of fill their chambers with grease. The flame from the cap is very hot and I believe most of the multiple discharges are caused by loose fitting caps. I'm not saying that the flame couldn't pass the ball and ignite the main charge though. In theory it could happen, but if you use a correct size ball the chances should be minimal. The .451" ball combination in my Remington chamber was quite loose, and I didn't have to use much force on the rammer but the seal seemed to be good enough. Perhaps the flame from a chamber that has been ignited is hotter than the loose powder in front of the balls that I used in my experiment, but anyway, I think the frontal chainfire theory has to be buried once and for all.

 

 

Note: After some criticism regarding my methods during this experiment I made another one. The following is an excerpt from my post on the MLAIC mailing list which originally criticised my methods:

 

 

 

“Now I've spent some days doing some more experiments. As I regard the theory of ignition through the nipples as obvious, I have focused on getting frontal ignition from a loaded cylinder. I won't call the cylinder "properly loaded", because I think the .451" bullets I used in the experiment fit too loosely. I normally use a .454" ball. I went on to use my .44 Uberti Remington and loaded one chamber full of FFFg Wano powder and put the bullet on top with no wad, grease or similar. The loaded ball was flush with the chamber mouth.

 

 

 

Then I tried to set the charge off by shooting sparks past the ball and in to the powder. This was done by shooting various compressed charges into the loaded chamber from the side from about 8-10 cm distance. I started off with twenty 16 gauge shotgun shells that was roll crimped with two card discs below 50 grains of FFFg Wano for the ten first shells and 70 grains of KIK blasting powder for the ten next. I also used blanks from a .577.450 Martini-Henry, a .44 cal. percussion revolver and a .44 cal. muzzleloading pistol. All in all I fired 50 shots with no ignition of the cylinder. Before the last 20 shots I poured a small amount of FFFFg powder over the ball. After every second shot the ball in the cylinder was shot out and I reloaded with a fresh ball and powder. I did not get any frontal ignition.

 

 

 

Just to try to get a multiple discharge I loaded all six chambers with 30 grains of FFFg Wano and put a wad lightly greased with Bore Butter on top. Then I capped the revolver and the blanks without getting any frontal ignition when I shot them. I proceeded with the same load, but this time I put a ball in every second chamber. I capped all six chambers and fired the balls only. The chambers only protected by a felt wad did not go off. I then loaded the cylinder ditto, except this time I loaded the chambers without balls to the brim with powder before I put a felt wad over. The wad was in other words flush with the chamber mouth. This time I finally got to experience a frontal ignition. It happened as I fired the second ball. After I had fired all of the three chambers loaded with ball two of the felt loaded chambers were still in place.

 

 

I have spent more than a few moments of thinking, experimenting and collecting information, both historical and modern, on this subject, and here are my views in a short version:

 

 

 

1. You will probably not experience a multiple discharge:

 

 

- if the ball is of correct size and is perfect without damages or wrinkles.

- if the caps are tight and don't get lost while shooting.

- if you use correct size nipples.

- if you seat the caps on the nipples.

- if the nipples are securely tightened to the cylinder.

 

 

 

2. You are in danger of having a multiple discharge:

 

 

- if the balls you are using are too small or are damaged/wrinkled.

- if you have a heavily pitted chamber.

- if you keep loosing caps while shooting.

- if you have too long nipples, perhaps in combination with either:

a. caps that are not seated on the nipples or

b. nipples that are not properly fastened (it makes them longer, same as a).

- if you ignore the other points and depend on greased chambers to prevent any chainfire. If you do this you are in danger of being nominated to the Darwin Award."

 

 

Remember: If you have loose fitting balls in your percussion revolver grease over the chambers will do nothing to prevent chainfires. The grease is blown away at the first shot anyway and if the ball combo is loose enough for a spark to pass it, well, no grease will prevent it from doing it. Use proper fitting balls!

 

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

11AM, somerset county fish & game, Jersey Joe and I will be smoking out the range. Got room for one more if anyone wants to have a good 'ol black powder shoot out. If you dont have supplies (or a gun) you can use my stuff, at my cost of $2.75 per cylinder

[GRIZ 3,369]

if the balls you are using are too small or are damaged/wrinkled

 

That's what I said. The guy you quoted goes on about lack of grease or a wad does not contribute to chain fire if you have a properly fitting ball. He ends with saying what I said.

 

If you use balls of the correct diameter without imperfections you don't need a wad or grease. if the balls you are using are too small or are damaged/wrinkled it can cause a chain fire as your article states.

 

I didn't say you were wrong I stated what I discussed in this post.

[Jersey Joe 4]

Thanks for the tips Gentlemen. This thread is a good read. I tried to find supplies locally and failed. Apparently NJ has priced the BP permits and such so high it's not worth carrying for most sport shops. Anyway, I thank Glenn for his offer and it will make me an educated consumer

 

The gun I bought has no documentation and it looks to be well used. On inspection of the cylinder, it seems that some of the cylinders are not truly round. Maybe it's my failing eyesight. I'll let Glenn inspect the gun to see if it's fit to shoot. I'll see if I can get a decent picture for all to comment.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

I tried to find supplies locally and failed. Apparently NJ has priced the BP permits and such so high it's not worth carrying for most sport shops.

 

Mailorder is your friend.

[Jersey Joe 4]

I posted video in a new thread in EVENTS & MEETUPS.

 

I tried taking my gun completely apart and failed. I could not get the screw out of the trigger guard and ended up buggering it up to boot. I cleaned it up best I could with hot water, blew it dry(hopefully) with a compressor, and oiled using a cooking oil aerosol spray like PAM. Also, I couldn't budge the nipples on the cylinder. I let them soak overnight in PB Blaster but no luck. I wrecked my sparkling new nipple wrench of course. Oh well...hopefully it will go bang next time.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I posted video in a new thread in EVENTS & MEETUPS.

 

I tried taking my gun completely apart and failed. I could not get the screw out of the trigger guard and ended up buggering it up to boot. I cleaned it up best I could with hot water, blew it dry(hopefully) with a compressor, and oiled using a cooking oil aerosol spray like PAM. Also, I couldn't budge the nipples on the cylinder. I let them soak overnight in PB Blaster but no luck. I wrecked my sparkling new nipple wrench of course. Oh well...hopefully it will go bang next time.

 

Joe,

 

Sorry to hear you had so much trouble. There is a way to get those nipples out making your own tool out of a socket if memory serves. I'll try to get the information for you.

 

Screws are cheap and plentiful from VTI gun parts. If you soak the cylinder in Kroil, drip-dry it, and then put it onto a cookie sheet with aluminum foil & into an oven on really low (be careful!) you might get those nipples to budge! Remember to use gloves, and put the cylinder in a vise with something soft around the outside of the cylinder so you don't damage it.

 

Shoot me a PM with your email to discuss further. You may have to replace the entire cylinder, which is possible, but hopefully not!

 

Good luck!

 

Dave