Staying at hotel with hangun in NJ

[LorenzoS 100]

Suppose a NJ resident wants to attend a handgun class or match in NJ, but it is far enough from home that he wants to stay overnight in a hotel the night before. Is it legal for him to have the handgun in the hotel room?

[this_is_nascar 162]

Great question. I'm not about about to guess or speculate, so I'l be watching this thread too.

[zoid 24]

To add to this what about if you stay at a friends or relatives house say before a match or you are living

there temporarily. Can you have your guns at a temporary residence?

[RedBowTies88 41]

interested as well..

[kenw 293]

This has come up here before.

 

If the room is registered to you, and there isn't any policy to the contrary, you're considered "in possession" of the property and may have your firearms there.

 

If you can find the old thread, the references to the appropriate laws are there.

[kenw 293]

As for a friend's or relative's house, sorry, but no.

[Malsua 1,422]

This has come up here before.

 

If the room is registered to you, and there isn't any policy to the contrary, you're considered "in possession" of the property and may have your firearms there.

 

 

Except that wasn't an affirmative defense for George Revelle...who had a handgun, in a hotel room.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Who the hell gave the OP a '-1' for asking this?? Time to cancel that one out...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Suppose a NJ resident wants to attend a handgun class or match in NJ, but it is far enough from home that he wants to stay overnight in a hotel the night before. Is it legal for him to have the handgun in the hotel room?

 

Yes.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Who the hell gave the OP a '-1' for asking this?? Time to cancel that one out...

 

 

What does this mean? What's a -1?

[woodentoe 14]

Except that wasn't an affirmative defense for George Revelle...who had a handgun, in a hotel room.

 

I googled george revelle and coldn't find the case that you cite. can you 'splain?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

What does this mean? What's a -1?

 

The little green 'up' arrow and red 'down' arrow in the bottom right corner of each post... someone gave the OP a 'down' (or -1) vote...

[this_is_nascar 162]

So, I take it that is used to rate someone's post or something? What's its purpose?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

So, I take it that is used to rate someone's post or something? What's its purpose?

 

As you said, it rates your posts...

[heaterbob 53]

As for a friend's or relative's house, sorry, but no.

the op asked about a hotel room, friend's or relative's house has nothing to do with the question (now were even)

[hd2000fxdl 422]

So, I take it that is used to rate someone's post or something? What's its purpose?

 

Yup, as you said. Plus it's nice to take a look at if someone is selling something and you don't know them.

[Soju 153]

Is it legal? Maybe. If nobody knows, or notices, than I'm sure you are fine. If somehow somebody finds out, or the police know, and you get caught, I'd bet my last Atlantic City winnings you would get arrested, and prosecuted. According to NJ, there is no place in the state (or country for that matter) for people like you!

 

I'd avoid doing so if at all possible. NJ is not a fun place to be without guns never mind with them!

[Malsua 1,422]

I googled george revelle and coldn't find the case that you cite. can you 'splain?

 

Brain blip. Google Greg Revell

This article explains it pretty well: http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2011/01/revell-v-port-authority-of-new-york-and-new-jersey/

 

Here's what was said. 926A is FOPA

As the Third Circuit explained (here is the court's opinion): "In essence, s. 926A allows a person to transport a firearm and ammunition from one state through a second state to a third state, without regard to the second state's gun laws, provided that the traveler is licensed to carry a firearm in both the state of origin and the state of destination and that the firearm is not readily accessible during the transportation."

Both the district court and the Third Circuit on appeal held that the plaintiff was not covered by this provision because he had ready access to the handgun and ammunition during his overnight stay at the airport hotel. Accordingly, the courts concluded that Section 926A did not cover the plaintiff's actions and, therefore, his false arrest and due process claims had to be denied because he was in violation of the New Jersey gun laws. Interestingly, neither decision refers to any Second Amendment claims asserted by the plaintiff.

 

He was in violation of NJ laws by having a gun in a hotel room and he was not covered by FOPA. Feel free to make your own choices. I don't personally feel short term hotel stays qualify. This is my own, non legal opinion. I do believe long term stays in a hotel do qualify.

[echo five foxtrot 1]

excellent question.....

[Gorilla800lbs 12]

Malsua: LorenzoS is asking about someone who is an NJ resident and is traveling within NJ, staying at a hotel overnight. Revell case and its FOPA dimension don't seem to apply at all, what do you say? It's 2C:39-6 all the way.

 

(b

)Directly to or from

any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

[Malsua 1,422]

Malsua: LorenzoS is asking about someone who is an NJ resident and is traveling within NJ, staying at a hotel overnight. Revell case and its FOPA dimension don't seem to apply at all, what do you say? It's 2C:39-6 all the way.

 

(b

)Directly to or from

any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

The issue is that the court deemed that Revell was not legally able to have a handgun in a hotel room after they determined that FOPA did not apply. Without a carry permit, a NJ resident has no more rights than Revell did.

[kenw 293]

To add to this what about if you stay at a friends or relatives house say before a match or you are living

there temporarily. Can you have your guns at a temporary residence?

 

the op asked about a hotel room, friend's or relative's house has nothing to do with the question (now were even)

I don't really know what we're "even" for, but I actually read the entire thread before I opened my piehole.

 

Reading is FUNdamental.

 

ETA:

This is the thread I was thinking of...

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25261-transporting-to-a-firearms-course/page__hl__hotel__fromsearch__1

[Dan 177]

Whether or not a hotel room is considered a "residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him", I wouldn't bet my life on it.

 

IMO, Here's what you have to play with. If you belong to a rifle or pistol club, it removes the "directly to or from" and changes to "in going to or from" , but you still have to transport according to subsection g. which only gives you "reasonably necessary" deviations in your travels. Subsection g. is the kicker... if you belong to such a club referenced in (1), you don't have to go "directly to" but can only have "reasonable deviations" according to g. Without belonging to a club, you have to go "directly to or from" in (b), but still have an ability for "reasonable deviations" in g. Its up to you on how to determine what that definition is in both cases.

 

This is why the anti crowd LOVES the word "reasonable". It is kludgey and open for debate, thus 5 years of your life in prison is determined by the ability of either side to argue successfully what "reasonable" is.

 

 

2C:39-6

 

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

g . All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

[kenw 293]

“Occupant” means any person or persons, including guests, in actual physical possession or occupancy of a unit of dwelling space on a regular basis. For purposes of assigning specific duties or responsibilities, the term “occupant”, unless the text indicates otherwise, shall mean the tenant, lessee, head of the family or household, or other adult person or emancipated minor assuming basic responsibility for the continued renting or occupancy of the dwelling space.

 

“Hotel” means any building, including but not limited to any related structure, accessory building and land appurtenant thereto, and any part thereof, which contains ten or more dwelling units or has sleeping facilities for 25 or more persons and is kept, used, maintained, advertised as, or held out to be, a place where sleeping or dwelling accommodations are available to guests. “Hotel” also means any facility that is commonly regarded as a hotel, motor hotel, motel or established guesthouse in the community in which it is located. “Hotel” does not include those facilities that are excluded by statute. (See N.J.S.A. 55:13A-3(j).))

 

“Guest” means any person who occupies a unit of dwelling space either as a temporary occupant or transient in an establishment holding itself out as serving transients or on a temporary or permanent basis in an establishment providing housekeeping or dining services on a regular basis to occupants.

§ 5:10-2.2 Definitions

[Soju 153]

only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

I think people get confused about what this means. Here is the correct, NJ translation

 

only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances, such as, deviating your car 3 feet to the left to avoid a squirrel, taking a toll road instead of a free road, following a detour if the road is blocked off (only if road is blocked off for more than 3 hours, otherwise you must wait until it is reopened, and only if there are detour signs), and the deviation of making approved 'right on red' turns.

 

[LorenzoS 100]

All, thanks for the commentary. Unfortunately it confirms what I originally thought. Due to the deliberate ambiguity in the law, there is no way to know if this is legal. I think probably it's OK but there is too much risk that if I encounter a LEO he can decide to simply bust me and let the court work it out.

 

About the only thing I can do here is to continue supporting the NJ2AS and hope they continue to make progress. I think the very fact that nobody can tell what is or is not legal indicates a serious problem. I also am confident it is no accident, it's a deliberate strategy to intimidate people from engaging in legal activities that cannot be banned outright.

 

Godamit again New Jersey, godamit.

[Dan 177]

Good way of thinking about it. One could argue that the law provides for a defense. You have a high probability of being charged, spending lots of $$$, and face serious jailtime if the jury was having a bad day or didn't like how you looked.

 

Remember NJ gun laws: guilty before being proven innocent.... own guns at your own peril.... discretion is your friend

[raz-0 1,259]

All, thanks for the commentary. Unfortunately it confirms what I originally thought. Due to the deliberate ambiguity in the law, there is no way to know if this is legal. I think probably it's OK but there is too much risk that if I encounter a LEO he can decide to simply bust me and let the court work it out.

 

About the only thing I can do here is to continue supporting the NJ2AS and hope they continue to make progress. I think the very fact that nobody can tell what is or is not legal indicates a serious problem. I also am confident it is no accident, it's a deliberate strategy to intimidate people from engaging in legal activities that cannot be banned outright.

 

Godamit again New Jersey, godamit.

 

For all the referencing of the revell case, people seem to leave out that the charges against him were dropped, and his property eventually returned.

 

What the circuit court was ruling on was false arrest under the color of law, and being able to sue the state for keeping his gun for so long. The court punted on the false arrest because he was arrested for a legitimate reason, meaning someone thought he broke the law, and that wasn't flying in the face of FOPA in their opinion as he was no longer in transit. It's a pretty tortured interpretation of in transit IMHO, and the one anti gun thing really in the case is that it seriously undermined the intent of FOPA to provide safe passage. There is conflicint sets of precedent on the issue in multiple states as well.

 

You really don't see transport violations come up too much unless it is trying to pile on charges to force a plea, or messing with some out of stater either in ignorance of FOPA, or in an attempt to say FOPA does not apply here. Most of that reason is because the list of legal places to possess gets kind of hard to define legally. As KenW points out, the argument for a hotel room certainly has legs. Does it mean you won't have to lawyer up? No. Does it mean that your lawyer can argue the hell out of it in a manner that a DA really doesn't want to deal with? Yes.

 

 

 

Good way of thinking about it. One could argue that the law provides for a defense. You have a high probability of being charged, spending lots of $$$, and face serious jailtime if the jury was having a bad day or didn't like how you looked.

 

Remember NJ gun laws: guilty before being proven innocent.... own guns at your own peril.... discretion is your friend

 

This, you ahve no rights in NJ in regards to guns. What you have is a prohibition on them with affirmative defenses outlined in the law. Arguably, this entire structuring of the firearms laws is contrary to an incorporated individual right, and thus being charged under them is theoretically challengable. That challenge likely won't float in NJ, but that's what circuit courts and SCOTUS is for.

[mipafox 438]

Enough bagging on NJ already, Guys. Sheesh.

[Soju 153]

Enough bagging on NJ already, Guys. Sheesh.

 

It's easy to defend NJ when you live in PA!