Took the new AR for a test drive today, a couple issues...

[Vlad G 345]

Is there one you recommend over another? Ill save up some $ and when the time comes maybe take the plunge

 

Well the problem is that there are a LOT of them available now, and I'm far from having tested every one of them. I've felt a few different ones but overtime what the finger feels gets kinda foggy in your mind as times goes on. I can tell you that for my money right now I'd buy Geissele for two reasons: I love the one I already have, and they do build rough use quality triggers. That said, if you want a some of the best feeling triggers on earth and are not too concerned about the end of the world then JP triggers are awesome, and the CMC, Timney and AR Gold ones are also very well liked and reviewed. The last three also have the advantage of being drop in units which are self contained so they are slightly easier to install.

[SW99 2]

is that what something like this is Old School...

 

http://www.triggerwork.net/ar15.html

[MandM 2]

Well the problem is that there are a LOT of them available now, and I'm far from having tested every one of them. I've felt a few different ones but overtime what the finger feels gets kinda foggy in your mind as times goes on. I can tell you that for my money right now I'd buy Geissele for two reasons: I love the one I already have, and they do build rough use quality triggers. That said, if you want a some of the best feeling triggers on earth and are not too concerned about the end of the world then JP triggers are awesome, and the CMC, Timney and AR Gold ones are also very well liked and reviewed. The last three also have the advantage of being drop in units which are self contained so they are slightly easier to install.

 

I'm with Vlad... I love my geissele SSA. High quality. Great feel. Dependable. I would spend the $180 again in a heartbeat. Sure it's not really a drop in like a timney or something... but it's not hard at all.

[raz-0 1,259]

Ok, my take on triggers.

 

Money is no object, any trigger you want category:

 

For accuracy - AR Gold. It is NICE, with some solid engineering. Almost as good as a tweaked jewell trigger, while still being drop a drop in pack. Can be used for shoot fast games as well, but isn't optimal.

 

For shooting fast - Geissele super dynamic 3-gun/super 3-gun. Only difference is flat vs, curved trigger. Reset is insanely strong, pull is bizarre but nice. it takes work if you are going for maximum accuracy though.

 

Willing to spend, but want to get bang for the buck.

 

Geissele SSA-E for a two stage.

 

Timney drop in for a single stage.

 

Willing to take some risk for some savings:

 

JP-rifle DIY trigger install kit. You have to do grinding and adjusting, and might trash it or wind up with something heavier than you want if you don't adjust it right. done right, it is 3-4.5lb (actually you can set it pretty high,but why) single stage with NO take up. If you like prepping the trigger this is NOT for you. If you go this route, get the kit with the speed hammer. Done right, this is probably the best trigger for the money. $120 for the trigger, $40 for the speed hammer.

 

On a budget:

 

rock river arms 2-stage, or a bit more pricey but more likely to be in stock someplace - the armalite 2 stage national match. IMO they are close to the same thing.

 

I'd be willing to take a chance on the ALG act trigger too given it's pedigree and the fact it isn't shooting for the stars and is cheap.

 

All the above are capable of being made reliable and are reasonably durable.

 

Things I would stay away from:

 

JARD adjustable trigger. Nice idea, just way too much tolerance stacking inherent to the design, which means with the right sample of the trigger in the right sample of lower, and you can wind up with a crap trigger or something unsafe and not have a damn thing you can do about it.

 

Anything that comes form someone who files,stones,grinds on the engagement surfaces without putting the finished version back through heat treat. Most trigger parts are NOT through hardened, and you wind up with soft engagement surfaces that will wear quickly. It's penny wise, pound foolish IMO.

[Old School 611]

is that what something like this is Old School...

 

http://www.triggerwork.net/ar15.html

 

I don't like his AR triggers. That's all I'll say.

[Old School 611]

Anything that comes form someone who files,stones,grinds on the engagement surfaces without putting the finished version back through heat treat. Most trigger parts are NOT through hardened, and you wind up with soft engagement surfaces that will wear quickly. It's penny wise, pound foolish IMO.

 

 

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I wish I knew more about this surface hardening stuff. Now viualize the trigger engagement notch ground into the hammer.

 

I'll be damned if it doesn't look like that was done after heat treating. So if that surface is stoned, taking off the high spots of the engegement area axial to the trigger pin how would that remove the hardened surface? Even if it did remove the high part of the "wash board" the valleys would still be hardened. How deep is the surface hardening?

 

Now this is not saying that a butcher can't ruin a hammer...

 

Any input is appreciated.

[SW99 2]

I don't like his AR triggers. That's all I'll say.

 

LOL, ok noted.

 

It seems that the best way to go when the time comes is to cough up the cash and get something that will be strong and reliable. I mean I wouldn't spend 250+ but like 125-150 is reasonable for me.

[alowerlevel 77]

I don't like his AR triggers. That's all I'll say.

 

x2, heard too many bad things happening with his triggers.

 

Personally the ALG ACT trigger will be the next thing I buy for my rifle as soon as I have the spare cash.

[SW99 2]

x2, heard too many bad things happening with his triggers.

 

Personally the ALG ACT trigger will be the next thing I buy for my rifle as soon as I have the spare cash.

 

This one?

 

http://www.rainierar...product_id=3022

[alowerlevel 77]

Yup. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97266

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The RRA 2 stage came with my rifle, and i see absolutely no reason to change it out, great trigger. If i were to buy one it would be the Geissele tho, not much more money, and i hear they are great.

[lexcruiser 12]

I'll have to chime in and give the Wilson Combat trigger a HUGE thumbs up. I put it in my current (and first) AR build and absolutely love it. I will be using WC triggers for all my future builds...

[Old School 611]

I wish I knew more about this surface hardening stuff. Now viualize the trigger engagement notch ground into the hammer.

 

I'll be damned if it doesn't look like that was done after heat treating. So if that surface is stoned, taking off the high spots of the engegement area axial to the trigger pin how would that remove the hardened surface? Even if it did remove the high part of the "wash board" the valleys would still be hardened. How deep is the surface hardening?

 

Now this is not saying that a butcher can't ruin a hammer...

 

Any input is appreciated.

 

Who is our heat treating / surface hardening expert?

[Vlad G 345]

What is your question? A lot of parts are surface hardened which means that the center of the part is a softer steel while the thin outer shell is hardened. The purpose of this that can produce strong parts cheaply, because the softer center is less brittle and less likely to fracture while the wear surfaces are less likely to wear out by being hardened. Normally the surface hardening is not very deep, around 0.020 of an inch. If you work on the part and remove the harden surface you might end up with a nice feeling trigger but you also now expose the softer core to wear and the edges will wear out and round and such and that is a bad idea on sears and hammers.

 

You can easily get the same performance by using tool steels or other through hardened steels but they are more expensive because the material is more expensive but more importantly they are harder to machine, which is part why things like Giessele triggers are more expensive.

[Old School 611]

What is your question? A lot of parts are surface hardened which means that the center of the part is a softer steel while the thin outer shell is hardened. The purpose of this that can produce strong parts cheaply, because the softer center is less brittle and less likely to fracture while the wear surfaces are less likely to wear out by being hardened. Normally the surface hardening is not very deep, around 0.020 of an inch. If you work on the part and remove the harden surface you might end up with a nice feeling trigger but you also now expose the softer core to wear and the edges will wear out and round and such and that is a bad idea on sears and hammers.

 

You can easily get the same performance by using tool steels or other through hardened steels but they are more expensive because the material is more expensive but more importantly they are harder to machine, which is part why things like Giessele triggers are more expensive.

 

Vlad- if in fact the hardened surface is .020" or even .010" deep Stoning a hammer engagement notch will not effect the surface hardness as only a few thousanths if that much will be removed. And that is why I was asking. Furthermore all the engagement areas I've seen appear to have been ground after heat treating.

 

My point being stoning engagement surfaces is safe and a viable way of removing gritty creep.

[Vlad G 345]

I suspect most of the parts you ground from the factory have already removed a good deal of the hardening in the process, removing more is what gets you in trouble.

[raz-0 1,259]

 

I wish I knew more about this surface hardening stuff. Now viualize the trigger engagement notch ground into the hammer.

 

I'll be damned if it doesn't look like that was done after heat treating. So if that surface is stoned, taking off the high spots of the engegement area axial to the trigger pin how would that remove the hardened surface? Even if it did remove the high part of the "wash board" the valleys would still be hardened. How deep is the surface hardening?

 

Now this is not saying that a butcher can't ruin a hammer...

 

Any input is appreciated.

 

The surface hardening is a few thousandths deep according to people who know more than me. Even with care, sometimes faces need to be trued up, and that usually involves going past that hardened layer. The problem as I understand it isn't usually the hammer, it's the sear face. Like you noted, it looks like it is done after carburizing. It uses up much of the depth of the hardening for the final grind/polish. How much varies, and that's the problem even with someone who isn't a butcher. The only way to be sure is to harden again.

 

Or you can just accept that you are trading off durability for cost control.

 

I'll say this, the only worked "mil-spec" triggers I have encountered that weren't bad also failed to light off primers sometimes.

 

Carburizing can go as deep as 0.3" with some super duper tlc. Common spec for farming it out is to request between 0.02" and 0.25".