Denied by the City of Paterson, Now what?

[specopsscout 26]

Barely related, but if you've got a bank account, you've got access to a Notary. Mine has never charged me to have something notarized...

 

PS

I agree with Jules. He didn't say, "take it on the chin." He said, "get yours, then get payback." Reading is fundamental....

[Justjules 0]

Sorry Jules, but you just Don't understand the argument.

No I completely understand the argument. BUT you can make your argument while you possess you FID card, or make your argument while NOT having an FID card..I know which one I would choose. You guys are really thickheaded on the matter and it almost seems as if most of you like stirring up a battle that does not need to be fought at that moment..I really dont know what the big deal would have been to just fill out the form, get your toys, then go after the PD for not following the laws.

But you know what, do it your way, it works better..LOL one less lawful gun owner on the streets, good job guys!

[Justjules 0]

Barely related, but if you've got a bank account, you've got access to a Notary. Mine has never charged me to have something notarized...

 

PS

I agree with Jules. He didn't say, "take it on the chin." He said, "get yours, then get payback." Reading is fundamental....

 

Thank you, someone who does not selectively read. I work for a PD, I know how things work, and I know how to fight back and fight dirty at that. In fact one of our own guys applied for a new handgun permit, but he pissed off the fellow cop that does the paperwork, so guess what? His application got put on the back burner. He will get it eventually, but he is gonna have to wait till the cop that does them feels like giving to him.

[Rysdad 5]

...

 

 

Barely related, but if you've got a bank account, you've got access to a Notary. Mine has never charged me to have something notarized...

 

PS

I agree with Jules. He didn't say, "take it on the chin." He said, "get yours, then get payback." Reading is fundamental....

 

Ok, say a law abiding gun owner wannabe does what is asked. He bends over for the PD, fills out all the extra forms, submits to all cavity searches and finally after 12 or 20 weeks he gets his permits... Are you now proposing that he can sue? what are his damages? He received what he asked for. Please don't be so naive. They know full well they have you by the balls if you let them. So I say don't let them. Unless of course you are one of them and maybe agree with them.

[Justjules 0]

Give them an inch and they will take a mile. So even if you get that inch back, you are still 63359 inches behind.

 

 

But you would have been 63359 inches behind with a gun permit, and plenty of time to fight for your cause.

[Justjules 0]

...

 

 

 

 

Ok, say a law abiding gun owner wannabe does what is asked. He bends over for the PD, fills out all the extra forms, submits to all cavity searches and finally after 12 or 20 weeks he gets his permits... Are you now proposing that he can sue? what are his damages?

 

How about standing up for the rest of legal gun owners and stopping the process from affecting future gun owners..All the OP is going to do now, is waste a bunch of his own time on appeals and get HIS permit eventually.Still does not change the way that PD is doing business. If you guys are so self righteous and care about EVERYONE's rights, then why dont you guys make an issue out of this to the point Patterson PD eliminates that form?

[Soju 153]

So being 63359 inches behind is better than not giving them anything and being even? Logic fail.

 

 

 

then why dont you guys make an issue out of this to the point Patterson PD eliminates that form?

 

 

People have...hence the current law suit.

 

 

 

We need a way for the people to charge officials with a crime...

 

How many Cheifs and/or mayors do you think we could hit with this if there was a way?

 

[/size][/font]

If there was a way? Probably most of them. Too bad there isn't a way.

[Rysdad 5]

OK, I can get down with that. As an officer of the law how would you actually propose that be done? Should we get our permits and then call the chief once a week and demand that the process be changed? Write our state politicians?

 

Seriously Jules, how should we do that?

[Qel Hoth 33]

We need a way for the people to charge officials with a crime...

 

How many Cheifs and/or mayors do you think we could hit with this if there was a way?

 

2C:30-2. Official misconduct

A public servant is guilty of official misconduct when, with purpose to obtain a benefit for himself or another or to injure or to deprive another of a benefit:

 

a. He commits an act relating to his office but constituting an unauthorized exercise of his official functions, knowing that such act is unauthorized or he is committing such act in an unauthorized manner; or

 

b. He knowingly refrains from performing a duty which is imposed upon him by law or is clearly inherent in the nature of his office.

 

Official misconduct is a crime of the second degree. If the benefit obtained or sought to be obtained, or of which another is deprived or sought to be deprived, is of a value of $200.00 or less, the offense of official misconduct is a crime of the third degree.

[mcbethr 42]

If you guys are so self righteous and care about EVERYONE's rights, then why dont you guys make an issue out of this to the point Patterson PD eliminates that form?

 

Actually, I've spent the past four and a half hours doing exactly that by working on a strategy to drum up 24 Senate and 48 Assembly votes to get a RKBA Amendment in the NJ Constitution. I have a working model now that can run a number of strategic simulations. It also shows how we can specifically target politicians that are at risk of having their seats turned over in the next election (assuming a variance between 5% and 15%).

 

It's a little more productive than screaming into the internet, I suppose, although not as much fun as playing catch with my kids.

 

Off to bed for me. Plenty of 2A work to do tomorrow and not much time left in which to do it.

[Justjules 0]

OK, I can get down with that. As an officer of the law how would you actually propose that be done? Should we get our permits and then call the chief once a week and demand that the process be changed? Write our state politicians?

 

Seriously Jules, how should we do that?

 

Perhaps call your local assemblyman, state senator,county prosecutors office, city mayor or cityl legal department via your own attorney advising them the citiy is violating people rights and lodge formal complaints. Contact the NRA or other organizations that you guys deal with regularly on such matters and lodge a complaint. last resort, file a massive class action lawsuit against Patterson PD for violating your rights...But doesnt it make more sense to comply with what they asked, this way down the road you can say "see I did every thing they told me to do and they are violating people rights". It just makes more sense to me to play their game and get what you want (same thing politicians do.) But arguing with some poor detective who is simply doing the job he was assigned to do with the rules he was told to follow is not getting you anywhere.

 

Think about it, this detective had to go to the Chief for final approval and the Chief probably asked where the form was, and the detective then informed the chief how the guy refused to fill out the form...And we see the end result of that...

 

I can also assure you the Patterson legal department most likely will not want any more lawsuits than they already have and most likely a letter from an attorneys office advising them of the intent to sue on the issue would be enough to eliminate the form..

 

Sometimes there are easier and less stressful ways to fight the fight and get the same results.

[specopsscout 26]

Ok, say a law abiding gun owner wannabe does what is asked. He bends over for the PD, fills out all the extra forms, submits to all cavity searches and finally after 12 or 20 weeks he gets his permits... Are you now proposing that he can sue? what are his damages? He received what he asked for. Please don't be so naive. They know full well they have you by the balls if you let them. So I say don't let them. Unless of course you are one of them and maybe agree with them.

 

Naive? That's a new one. I've been accused of a number of things over the years, but naive? Okay...

What are his damages now? Is he going to get paid? Hardly...He'll be very lucky indeed, if he sees his FPID and Pistol Permit in anything remotely related to the immediate future, and now has a number of additional hoops to jump through with appeals, court dates and decisions, not to mention attorneys fees if he's not going Pro se, court costs, filing fees, ect...on the plus side, he'll be able to really pound that anti establishment drum so many folks beat around here, so it's not a total loss...

So am I correct in assuming that were you in his position, you would have taken exactly the same stance? Because the form in question, which is simply a repetition of questions already asked and answered, is of such outrage? It must be the photo and notary that is so outrageous...However, I'm assuming by your presence here, that you alreeady have your FPID...strange how many times I've seen that line of thought offered...You should fight! No, I mean YOU should fight...I'm good right over here on the sidelines...

To be honest, I must be what's wrong with this state, America, and human existance as a whole too, because my opinion is that this is stupid...plain and simple...there is a time to fight and a time to concede...guess which one this was...Yes, after the fact, he could have helped to effect change without suffering for it, so the next person in line would not have had to suffer the righteous indignation of the damnable form. Apparantly no one before him did...either...It never ceases to amaze me, that some folks pick a fight and then are stunned when they get hit...Ben Franklin mused on it long ago..."Those who in quarrels interpose, often end up with a bloodied nose."

[Justjules 0]

We need a way for the people to charge officials with a crime...

 

How many Cheifs and/or mayors do you think we could hit with this if there was a way?

 

[/size][/font]

 

You can bet that their a$$es are covered with some legal loophole set forth by the politicians.

[Justjules 0]

...You should fight! No, I mean YOU should fight...I'm good right over here on the sidelines...

 

 

Ahhh the old "I got your back" Waaaaaaaaayyyyy waaaaaaaaaaayyyy back....lol

 

So in summary: who is the only person in this thread who does NOT have their FID card and Permits? Right, the OP...However Im willing to bet there is more to the story on this.

[Rysdad 5]

Specopscout, you missed my point. You said "get yours, then get payback." What is his payback after he gets his? NOTHING! The PD gets to totally control the situation on its terms and sure, he may get his permit after some time if he capitulates, but there is NO payback.

 

Oh by the way. I do not have my permits yet. I submitted exactly what is required by law and what was requested by my PD, no more or less. I would like to think if my PD had required that I give more I would have stood up to them. I did inform them that they had violated the 30 day rule when 30 days had passed. I was laughed at.

[Rysdad 5]

Ahhh the old "I got your back" Waaaaaaaaayyyyy waaaaaaaaaaayyyy back....lol

 

So in summary: who is the only person in this thread who does NOT have their FID card and Permits? Right, the OP...However Im willing to bet there is more to the story on this.

 

Jules, you may be right. I was forming my argument on the assumption that what was posted actually happened.

[Justjules 0]

Specopscout, you missed my point. You said "get yours, then get payback." What is his payback after he gets his? NOTHING! The PD gets to totally control the situation on its terms and sure, he may get his permit after some time if he capitulates, but there is NO payback.

 

 

Well whats his payback now doing it his way? You pick and choose your battles and battlefields, During the application process was not the time to fight the fight. Now the PD STILL has total control of the situation so what did the OP achieve besides ensuring he either will never get a FID card or will wait a long time to get it?

[Soju 153]

So in summary: who is the only person in this thread who does NOT have their FID card and Permits? Right, the OP.

 

False assumptions often lead to false conclusions.

[specopsscout 26]

Ahhh the old "I got your back" Waaaaaaaaayyyyy waaaaaaaaaaayyyy back....lol

 

So in summary: who is the only person in this thread who does NOT have their FID card and Permits? Right, the OP...However Im willing to bet there is more to the story on this.

 

Oh yeah, and ditto...again...but I'm a little cynical...or maybe it's just my naivety showing again...

[PK90 3,570]

AFAIK, the hearing will be within 30 days of his appeal and he will get his FPID, if the reasons stated were the only factor. More than likely, the Chief of Paterson will not show up as required. But as stated previously, something is missing here.

[Rysdad 5]

Well we can beat this horse to death over and over. I concede that for him alone the better path would be to just bend over for the criminal PD in this case and get his gun. I have to say: This is not the way this country is supposed to be. The PD are just as guilty as a HR manager that doesn't hire minorities because he doesn't like them, of the guy that fires his secratary because she won't service him. They are Breaking the law and there is no argument about that. This sometime HAS to stop. It pisses me off and I just cant believe there is no recourse for us lowly folks that just want to excersize our rights.

 

I'm done.

[specopsscout 26]

Oh by the way. I do not have my permits yet. I submitted exactly what is required by law and what was requested by my PD, no more or less. I would like to think if my PD had required that I give more I would have stood up to them. I did inform them that they had violated the 30 day rule when 30 days had passed. I was laughed at.

 

So, have you filed yet? What are the damages you are seeking for this affront? Has a settlement been reached yet?

 

Well we can beat this horse to death over and over. I concede that for him alone the better path would be to just bend over for the criminal PD in this case and get his gun. I have to say: This is not the way this country is supposed to be. The PD are just as guilty as a HR manager that doesn't hire minorities because he doesn't like them, of the guy that fires his secratary because she won't service him. They are Breaking the law and there is no argument about that. This sometime HAS to stop. It pisses me off and I just cant believe there is no recourse for us lowly folks that just want to excersize our rights.

 

I'm done.

 

Yet another soap box...Your options are fairly simple...you either suck it up by living behind enemy lines to the Second Amendment, try and fight the good fight by intelligently picking the time and place of the battle in lieu of simply jumping unprepared into a fight, as a few of the folks around here do...or you move to Free America(It's East) where buying a firearm isn't significantly more difficult then buying a pair of jeans...

[Soju 153]

AFAIK, the hearing will be within 30 days of his appeal and he will get his FPID, if the reasons stated were the only factor. More than likely, the Chief of Paterson will not show up as required. But as stated previously, something is missing here.

 

What is ironic here, is that if the only reason he was denied happens to be because he didn't fill out a form that isn't required, he could end up getting the permit sooner then most people! I guess I would rather be denied in a timely manner, so that I can receive it after an appeal then play their game and still have to wait an excessive and illegally long amount of time. Maybe it isn't ironic though, merely coincidental.

[Justjules 0]

Well we can beat this horse to death over and over. I concede that for him alone the better path would be to just bend over for the criminal PD in this case and get his gun. I have to say: This is not the way this country is supposed to be. The PD are just as guilty as a HR manager that doesn't hire minorities because he doesn't like them, of the guy that fires his secratary because she won't service him. They are Breaking the law and there is no argument about that. This sometime HAS to stop. It pisses me off and I just cant believe there is no recourse for us lowly folks that just want to excersize our rights.

 

I'm done.

 

Perhaps a well put together letter to the President of the United States informing him of constitutional violations would get some results..

[Rysdad 5]

So, have you filed yet? What are the damages you are seeking for this affront? Has a settlement been reached yet?

 

No money = no lawyer = no lawsuit = forced to accept the 9 or 20 week wait cause by fools and criminals that pretend to represent us.

[Rysdad 5]

Perhaps a well put together letter to the President of the United States informing him of constitutional violations would get some results..

 

This president? Are you joking?

[Justjules 0]

No money = no lawyer = no lawsuit = forced to accept the 9 or 20 week wait cause by fools and criminals that pretend to represent us.

 

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them. If 10,000 people apply for permits in Patterson and there is 1 or 2 detectives assigned to the unit that processes them, you do the math. The whole system is too overwhelming to the individual departments who really don't even want to deal with this crap anymore..

[Soju 153]

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them.

 

No they don't.

[Justjules 0]

This president? Are you joking?

Yes, yes I actually was.

[PK90 3,570]

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them. If 10,000 people apply for permits in Patterson and there is 1 or 2 detectives assigned to the unit that processes them, you do the math. The whole system is too overwhelming to the individual departments who really don't even want to deal with this crap anymore..

What rule did the politicians create that says the OP can only have one permit? What rule says they can require more forms than the LAW says is needed? What I see here is a PD making up their own rules.