Denied by the City of Paterson, Now what?

[JeremyP 0]

I apologize for the delay in responding back to my own thread. I posted after receiving my denial letter and had to get ready for work right after. I just got home after a 12.5 hour shift and will be going through this thread page by page and try responding to as many questions/comments as I can.

 

Did you fill out the mental health release also?

 

Yes, the mental health release was filled out as part of the standard process.

 

well, since the denial is made official by the PD, I think the first thing you do is write a letter of appeal before the 30 days are up. Contact NJ2AS and see if they are able to or are interested in intervening. Also, call the NJSP firearms division and explain what happened to you and that you were denied because Paterson requires additional forms that are not necessary.

 

Then, get a lawyer lined up who can represent you in case,God forbid, you have to go to county court over it.

 

I would also consider speaking with your councilman and the Mayor sine they are supposedly your local government representatives.

 

However, since the appeal has a 30 day expiration date. I would do that first!

 

You are not otherwise a prohibited person?

 

Thank you for the advice. To my knowledge there is nothing in my history that I can recall that would make me a prohibited person. I've never been arrested or charged with a crime. Upon my initial meeting with Detective Rotsaert (before filing the application when receiving the paperwork for Morpho) he asked if I was ever arrested or had handcuffs on. I made it known the one time I was ever handcuffed was when I was about 13 years old and got caught stealing something at the mall. I remember my parents having received a letter to pay a fine, but I was not brought to court for it. If this was a problem it is my understanding the process would have ended there.

 

Sounds like you pissed them off, so now they are going to piss you off. I would have just filled out the form they asked for. I mean think about this, you have to submit your finger prints which is now registered in the FBI database. What was the big deal to fill out a simple form with your pictuure and get it notorized. I wonder if you will ever get to own a gun anytime soon. Good luck.

 

I contemplated this, but chose the path I did because after receiving my FPID and permits, what incentive do I have to fight for what's right? And once I've played along, what reason do I have to not do it again, since I've already complied on a prior occasion? Thanks for the good luck wishes.

[JeremyP 0]

All caught up on page 2.. and there's (currently) 3 more to go? Here are my replies...

 

Actually, I hate to admit it, but I agree in part. It would have been better not to have been the test case on this, as from now on whenever you finally get your FID card (assuming you are eligible and were not part of the Occupy movement, etc.), you will have to acknowledge that you were denied each time you apply for a pistol permit, and you will have some explaining to do... and apparently you will have to do that frequently and costly if you want more than one handgun. I would have complied with their form and documented EVERYTHING. In truth, I would have been angry, to say the least, about the 1 permit per application thing, but I would have documented it all and went to court with my FID card in pocket and then acknowledged the harassment and illegal actions of the police department, and all of the 2nd Amendment groups, NRA, etc. should have backed you, otherwise what are we supporting them for.

Believe me, I would have rather not been the test case on this, but what is done is done. The thought of having to disclose that I've been denied never crossed my mind, as after speaking with Det. Rotsaert about the form and the legality of it under 2C:58-3(f), he didn't seem to disagree with me about it or suggest that I would be denied because of it. As for explaining my denial in the future, I think it's a small price to pay so those that come after me won't be subjected to the same issue.

 

To the OP:

I do not believe that you were denied for the "Public Health, Safety and Welfare" issue because of your request for two permits. There is something else. I would question the PD as to what that is exactly prior to you appealing their decision. You may have forgot about something in your past. If it was denied as you stated, you should definitely appeal. I have seen applications denied for a lot worse, then easily overturned. Good luck.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. I've been trying to remember anything that would fall under the Public Health, Safety and Welfare issue. As I've stated in my previous post, I was once caught stealing when I was 13, if this was the problem, I would think that would be more of a criminal record issue, and that box is not checked off on my denial letter. I've received 3 traffic tickets in my lifetime, 2 were speeding, one was careless driving, last one was around 2001. Doubt this could be the issue. On one occasion, someone (former friend) impersonated me during a traffic stop, I got this taken care of with the Clifton PD, and it happened possibly some time around 2005-2007 if I had to estimate the date. He tried again on another occasion but was taken into custody and his real identity revealed. Again, I can't see any of these suggesting a Public Health and safety issue.

 

Full of fail. If you appeal and win, you have not been denied - the appeal and the granting of the FPID and/or P2P's is part and parcel of the same application process.

 

Where does everybody get this "costly" BS? Costly only in the terms of the time it takes up. This does not require a lawyer to appeal. If you are clean, and denied unjustly, you go before the judge yourself. You are already conversant with the law regarding additional forms and requirements. If you get shot down again (unlikely) then it may be time for a lawyer.

Thank you mentioning this. Seeing as there are differences of opinion here I will try and get clarification of it during the appeal. Perhaps stating the denial and granted on appeal, as suggested, would be the best route in any situation.

 

Manalapan had 3 extra forms that I filled out. Got my permits in 14 days. You decide what battles you think are worth fighting. Me? I'm going to the range with my AR and two pistols.

I don't think anyone would mind 3 extra forms for a 14 day turn around. That just isn't the case in Paterson. I've read a post here where someone waited 9 months for their FPID+permits. I was told 4-6 months when I submitted mine (Early April). Perhaps the denial process is faster than the approval process LOL

 

This whole post is insane, I know Keith. I work in a PD and it still took me 6 months to get mine. Stop being such a crybaby and fill out the form its not that hard

I hope you're not assuming I have a problem with Keith. I was courteous and respectful when I brought the issue about the forms to him, and he was courteous and respectful right back. I don't believe he is responsible for denying my application. My denial letter states "Has/have been disapproved by the Chief of Police for the following reason(s):"

 

BTW, I am a notary, if you need one. I wont charge you anything, but you have to come to me...

Thank you for the kind offer, but I'm hoping I, along with the residents of the City of Paterson, won't be needing one to legally obtain a FPID or P2Ps.

 

Fill out the form, get your FID, get your gun, donate to NJ2AS and let them fight the legal battle.

 

Now, you have to fight the battle without your FID. You'll most probably win your appeal but was your goal to fight the extra form in court or to get your FID in the shortest time possible?

I am in no rush. I still have many years left on this earth. This battle isn't a literal gun fight, I can fight it without a FID.

 

I still think that there is more to this story than we know about.

I wish I had more details to offer, I'm posting everything that has come to mind about any possible reasons for the public health and safety issue, since the failure to provide required documents is obviously the notarized form with passport photo.

[JeremyP 0]

Now I'm all caught up to this point... Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

 

Thank you, someone who does not selectively read. I work for a PD, I know how things work, and I know how to fight back and fight dirty at that. In fact one of our own guys applied for a new handgun permit, but he pissed off the fellow cop that does the paperwork, so guess what? His application got put on the back burner. He will get it eventually, but he is gonna have to wait till the cop that does them feels like giving to him.

Unless he decided to fight for his rights and the most he'd have to wait is 30 days.

 

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them. If 10,000 people apply for permits in Patterson and there is 1 or 2 detectives assigned to the unit that processes them, you do the math. The whole system is too overwhelming to the individual departments who really don't even want to deal with this crap anymore..

It's just one as far as I know. His office hours are Tues 10am - Noon, Wed. 6pm - 8pm. That's a 4-hour window during the course of a week.

 

OP, as a sidenote you should submit a personal records request thru the state police.. It's suprisingly easy nowadays:

 

Go to https://www.bioappli...nj/Default.aspx, fill out your info and pay the $41, schedule an appointment to get your prints done at Halsey St in Newark, fill out NJ form NJAPS2 with the same info you filled out online (http://www.nj.gov/nj...niversforma.pdf) and bring it with you to the appointment. You should have a latter back in a week or two either saying you have no criminal record in NJ or you have one and the details will be attached.

 

Don't bother doing a federal request unless you lived out of of state or otherwise have a federal paperwork trail.

 

Who knows, maybe someone used your name at booking or otherwise stole your identity. Or maybe there is something you did a long time ago that you forgot about.

 

Of course you probably got denied for the reasons being discussed in the thread but it's important to do your own homework before someone checks you out

 

And another vote for fighting the system *after* you take delivery of your FID and a few pistol permits first

Thanks for the input. Would you know if this provides any further information than what my employer would already have on file? I work in the healthcare field and have had background checks done in 2005 when I was hired as well as this past January when my department was taken over by a new company. I believe a criminal background check is required under the Medicare Conditions of Participation. So I would assume I have no criminal record. Also if this was the case, it would/should have been checked off on my denial letter.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I thought it was illegal for notaries to charge. Of course you'll notarize his for for free.

 

??? it's a service and it's not a free service..

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Im trying to tell you from an insiders point of view, the PD most likely would not

1) take it upon themselves to create extra paperwork for themselves

2) do so without the approval of the city law department (city lawyers or city council)

 

You are wrong!!!

[Justjules 0]

I understand following orders and if your chain of command involves politicians it must suck; but when your talking about an illegal order or an extra-legal requirement you have the right and a duty to disregard and not to enforce that requirement.

 

But how is it breaking the law if the city requires one extra piece of redundant paperwork to be filled out ? Did you ever think that in this day and age we live in with terrorism and identity theft, they want to be extra positive who they are issuing the FID card and permit to? I personally dont see the big deal about filling out one extra piece of paperwork to get the permit, and would have just done it. But apparently the conspiracy theorists out there equate every little thing to the government trying to control them and eventually leading up to implanting micro chips up your rectal cavities.

 

I love how most of you run around quoting the constitution protecting Americans right to bear arms and how the State is infringing upon that right, but in the same breath have no problem with the State denying people who are "prohibited persons". There is a long standing provision in the US constitution that allows the exclusion of certain individuals from bearing arms so therefore it does not cover all Americans. How come you guys dont view the act of denying a convicted felon a fire arm as unconstitutional, how come you guys aren't up in arms pounding the drum on that one?

Because it does not affect you, thats why.

 

Im done with this topic,there are a few of you who simply dont like me or my opinion due to my profession so anything I say is basically moot. Apparently you have the right to have an opinion on this forum, as long as it conforms with yours right?

[H.M. Murdock 0]

Thanks for the input. Would you know if this provides any further information than what my employer would already have on file? I work in the healthcare field and have had background checks done in 2005 when I was hired as well as this past January when my department was taken over by a new company. I believe a criminal background check is required under the Medicare Conditions of Participation. So I would assume I have no criminal record. Also if this was the case, it would/should have been checked off on my denial letter.

 

Yeah it should show on any background check that you sign off on (i.e. lexisnexis)

[Justjules 0]

You are wrong!!!

Your right, I have no idea how the system actually works on the inside, having seen it first hand for 15 years. Your right,Im wrong. Good day sir.

[woodentoe 14]

 

But how is it breaking the law if the city requires one extra piece of redundant paperwork to be filled out ? Did you ever think that in this day and age we live in with terrorism and identity theft, they want to be extra positive who they are issuing the FID card and permit to? I personally dont see the big deal about filling out one extra piece of paperwork to get the permit, and would have just done it. But apparently the conspiracy theorists out there equate every little thing to the government trying to control them and eventually leading up to implanting micro chips up your rectal cavities.

 

I love how most of you run around quoting the constitution protecting Americans right to bear arms and how the State is infringing upon that right, but in the same breath have no problem with the State denying people who are "prohibited persons". There is a long standing provision in the US constitution that allows the exclusion of certain individuals from bearing arms so therefore it does not cover all Americans. How come you guys dont view the act of denying a convicted felon a fire arm as unconstitutional, how come you guys aren't up in arms pounding the drum on that one?

Because it does not affect you, thats why.

 

Im done with this topic,there are a few of you who simply dont like me or my opinion due to my profession so anything I say is basically moot. Apparently you have the right to have an opinion on this forum, as long as it conforms with yours right?

 

Because, Jules, the statute specifically says that the municipal Issuing agency is not permitted to require additional documents, requirements or litmus tests for approval. The law is clearly written to prevent a CLEO from keeping permits away from non-prohibited persons for ideological reasons.

[Justjules 0]

So I would assume I have no criminal record.

 

Ok sorry, 1 more post before I unfollow this thread then I promise Im done. To the OP, you "assume" you have no criminal record. Well this might be the problem right here, how do you not know for a fact that you do or dont have a criminal record? I know positively without any doubt, that I have no criminal history. You were either arrested and convicted of something that would prohibit you from owning a fire arm, or you werent, its pretty simple really.

 

Like I said, there is more to this story than we are being told.

 

 

Jules Out.......

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Your right, I have no idea how the system actually works on the inside, having seen it first hand for 15 years. Your right,Im wrong. Good day sir.

 

1. So you are telling me the PD's are consulting legal to see if they can break the law and be good??

 

2. Who do you think is really saying to do this extra paperwork that is not part of the process, I'd say it's at the local PD level.

 

It is well defined what is and what is not allowed, anything different is against what the standard practice is and technically should not IS NOT #1 be required, #2 be reason for denial..

[Ray Ray 3,566]

All this paperwork is 60's technology. NICs checks are instant, it's all we need. That and a Government ID

[EchoMirage 137]

dont feed the troll.......hes contradicted himself several times throughout this thread. ie:

 

How about standing up for the rest of legal gun owners and stopping the process from affecting future gun owners..All the OP is going to do now, is waste a bunch of his own time on appeals and get HIS permit eventually.Still does not change the way that PD is doing business. If you guys are so self righteous and care about EVERYONE's rights, then why dont you guys make an issue out of this to the point Patterson PD eliminates that form?

 

and yet he rants and raves about doing whatever the patterson pd wants to do...fill out illegal paperwork, submit to anything and everything they say. well if you submit to everything, HOW are you supposed to stand up and stop this illegal process......which you advocate complying to?

[PK90 3,570]

Thank you for your participation in this thread Jules. You have some valid points, but go overboard on your accusations and assumptions of NJGF members. We don't know you personally, so we can not not like you.

 

Just trying to open your eyes to how "illegal" some PDs handle things.

[deadeye74 5]

All this paperwork is 60's technology. NICs checks are instant, it's all we need. That and a Government ID

 

Amen!

[Duppie 73]

Well Gentlemen...... now that the Troll is sated and has raised everyone's blood pressure, how does it feel to be party to a exercise in futility?

The OP was given his best advice by post number 6....the rest was essentially masturbation with Jules getting off the most.

You folks are an instigator's wet dream.

[bry@n 195]

Your right, I have no idea how the system actually works on the inside, having seen it first hand for 15 years. Your right,Im wrong. Good day sir.

 

You stated before that people don't fight because it doesn't apply to them. These concerns we have don't apply to you and that is why you have your opinion. I know a lot of cops between friendships and family. They are the most shadiest people I know. I love them dearly but calling a spade a spade, they are shady!!

 

They know the ins and outs and how to manipulate the way things look. I have seen cops lie with straight faces and not give a damn. Even quoting it's for the good and admitting to the lie later on.

 

You know what you wanna know and that's it, you don't give a damn about the constitution.

[Justjules 0]

dont feed the troll.......hes contradicted himself several times throughout this thread. ie:

 

 

[bry@n 195]

sure your done with this thread. You still need to beat your chest a little that your right and you know more than us because of your profession. lol

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Smile,fill out the form,yes sir,no sir,thank you sir,get your permits and guns,then sucker punch them afterwards with a law suit or complaint...But hey, you guys know what your doing right? Keep up the good work!! OP, good luck..

 

After you "play their game" you no longer have standing. You guys act like this is some protracted court case that will drag on & on. This is a simple appeal. As was said - you submit your position, the prosecutor puts forth the PD's reason for denial, you both go tell your story to a judge - who is far more likely to obey the law than the PD.

 

I just can't believe all the folks on here who take the "go along to get along" stance. It's the law - it's not that hard to understand. I've said it many times - is it too much to ask that those we empower to enforce the law follow the law?

 

With friends like some of the respondents on here, who needs enemies? We seem to be out own worst enemy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Duppie 73]

After you "play their game" you no longer have standing. You guys act like this is some protracted court case that will drag on & on. This is a simple appeal. As was said - you submit your position, the prosecutor puts forth the PD's reason for denial, you both go tell your story to a judge - who is far more likely to obey the law than the PD.

 

I just can't believe all the folks on here who take the "go along to get along" stance. It's the law - it's not that hard to understand. I've said it many times - is it too much to ask that those we empower to enforce the law follow the law?

 

With friends like some of the respondents on here, who needs enemies? We seem to be out own worst enemy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

+1

[NorthernYankee 94]

After you "play their game" you no longer have standing. You guys act like this is some protracted court case that will drag on & on. This is a simple appeal. As was said - you submit your position, the prosecutor puts forth the PD's reason for denial, you both go tell your story to a judge - who is far more likely to obey the law than the PD.

 

I just can't believe all the folks on here who take the "go along to get along" stance. It's the law - it's not that hard to understand. I've said it many times - is it too much to ask that those we empower to enforce the law follow the law?

 

With friends like some of the respondents on here, who needs enemies? We seem to be out own worst enemy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

+1

[Parker 213]

After you "play their game" you no longer have standing. You guys act like this is some protracted court case that will drag on & on. This is a simple appeal. As was said - you submit your position, the prosecutor puts forth the PD's reason for denial, you both go tell your story to a judge - who is far more likely to obey the law than the PD.

 

I just can't believe all the folks on here who take the "go along to get along" stance. It's the law - it's not that hard to understand. I've said it many times - is it too much to ask that those we empower to enforce the law follow the law?

 

With friends like some of the respondents on here, who needs enemies? We seem to be out own worst enemy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Well said.

[johnp 45]

After you "play their game" you no longer have standing. You guys act like this is some protracted court case that will drag on & on. This is a simple appeal. As was said - you submit your position, the prosecutor puts forth the PD's reason for denial, you both go tell your story to a judge - who is far more likely to obey the law than the PD.

 

I just can't believe all the folks on here who take the "go along to get along" stance. It's the law - it's not that hard to understand. I've said it many times - is it too much to ask that those we empower to enforce the law follow the law?

 

With friends like some of the respondents on here, who needs enemies? We seem to be out own worst enemy.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

+1

 

OP keep fighting the good fight, much respect for standing up not only for yourself but for other legal gun owners.

[BD104X 1]

I understand the ones who say they would have just filled it out (I might have for just one simple form), but I also admire the OP for not doing it and I also agree its not the point of 'one simple form', it's PD's making their own rules. It starts with 'one simple form' and before you know it they add other conditions and rules....

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

It starts with 'one simple form' and before you know it they add other conditions and rules....

 

Too late. Read the OP, they already have: Additional Form / Photograph / Notarization. Where does it stop?

[specopsscout 26]

[JeremyP 0]

Ok sorry, 1 more post before I unfollow this thread then I promise Im done. To the OP, you "assume" you have no criminal record. Well this might be the problem right here, how do you not know for a fact that you do or dont have a criminal record? I know positively without any doubt, that I have no criminal history. You were either arrested and convicted of something that would prohibit you from owning a fire arm, or you werent, its pretty simple really.

 

Like I said, there is more to this story than we are being told.

 

 

Jules Out.......

 

I used the word assume because I do NOT infact know, without a shadow of a doubt, what information may or may not exist about me in a database somewhere. I have not checked for myself first hand and thus used the word assume. Perhaps I should have said, "To the best of my knowledge I do not have a criminal record."

[oneshot 45]

Not an attack,but most LE know very little about firearms laws. Not a guess ,its fact. My cousin has been in LE for over 30 years,he doesn't know

all the firearms laws and will admit it.

[MarkWVU02 47]

Not an attack,but most LE know very little about firearms laws. Not a guess ,its fact. My cousin has been in LE for over 30 years,he doesn't know

all the firearms laws and will admit it.

 

+1 I know quite a few that have no idea about firearms laws. Last memorial day a state trooper friend was trying to tell us it was illegal to have a loaded gun in your house. That's why it's important that we know the laws and fight for our rights. To the OP I commend you for fighting the battle. Good luck.