So is my friend screwed now?

[Shadow 1]

So my friend is all upset that his chances of getting anymore PPs are gone or even possibly having his FID revoked.

 

last week at the university i was discussing a few things with him and asked when the next time we would stop by the range for some target pratice. His reply was that Physiscs was giving him a bit of trouble and he was already worried about passing the class even though the semseter had just started and was a bit depressed over the course load so didnt know when he would get to the range.

 

Anyway, some idiot over heard our discussion and informed some higherup at the school that someone at the school that had guns was depressed. The next day he had a visit by a cop and someone from the hosptial. He tried to tell them say everything was alright but they pulled that "NJ has 72 hours screening" and took him in.after speaking to the psychologist he was released the same day." I think he said with all the waiting he was out in maybe 6 hours or less..if that matters at all.

 

Does he have to answer yes to question 23 or 25? Or can he answer no since although he was taken there he was never techinally admitted or "observed". I'm not sure the wording of those two questions is not exaclty 100% clear.

 

Thanks

[bulpup 98]

He can answer no. Have him keep the name and contact info of the doctor that saw him though.

 

Kudos to the doc for the quick release. An overnight would have changed things significantly.

 

 

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[Shadow 1]

Ah thanks for the fast response and i had meant 26 not 25 for the second one.

and yes it was good he wasnt in too long...still its a sad shape country is becoming with this crap.

[Candide 0]

Gotta love those. See something? Say something commercials...

 

Brainless sheep.

[ruger9 0]

Stupid liberal brainwashed college kids. If it was me and I knew who called the cops, I'd find a way for that guy to get his butt kicked... after I got my FID back, of course.

 

It's not right that heresay can lose someone their constitutional rights.

[acuevo 0]

i love it when people can't mind their own @&$#!% business. hope your friend doens't run into any problems because of this in the future.

[TheDon 3]

Unbelievable. But I think he is good to go and might not have to answer "yes" to the psych questions.

#24--Certainly a "No." He was not confined to or committed for treatment.

#26--Arguable. I would look at the diagnosis on the hospital bill. If there was no diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder, he is good to go. This would be nothing different than say, I announce my chest hurts and someone calls an ambulance and they rush me to the hospital. If the doc says it was gas, I do not need to state a pre-existing heart condition on insurance applications. Very similar.

 

If it were me, since nearly every medical professional sees Major Depressive Disorder as a medical condition, not a psychological condition, I would personally consider answering "No" to #26 as well. If there was no diagnosis of MDD or if the attending physician was simply an ER doc and not a State registered Psychiatrist, I would certainly be answering "No".

 

But that is me. I would never advise others to tread in the gray areas where I like to play.

[ruger9 0]

The Don,

 

LOVE your signature!

[Urban Grunt 44]

Rule one about gun club, don't talk about guns at uni.

[PK90 3,570]

Obviously, he wanted to speak with a professional about his issue. It was totally voluntary what he did. He was not forced to go. No is the correct answer.

[bulpup 98]

I want to revise my answer here. It was late. I re-read this this morning and I saw "and they took him in."

 

Took him where? The police station? A hospital? Invoking that 72 hours may have been a data point entered. So while it sounds like he can still truthfully answer no, there still might be a hit on his record by either the police or the doctor. So I repeat, make sure he keeps the contact info for that doctor. This is so that if there is a record of them going to have a talk with him he can have a quick answer for the investigating officer.

 

I personally would be inclined to call that doctor up and get a full understanding of exactly what kind of record is being kept of the ordeal, especially while it is still fresh in the doctor's mind.

 

 

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[Shadow 1]

He was taken to a local hospital to their local "crisis" area. ..was never cuffed during the process.

During his time there he said he spoke to 3 different people and then was set home. The first one was

the basic medical screening, the 2nd was the "screener" and the 3rd was the doc. The doc and screener

both told him it seemed to be a mistake and on the discharge paperwork was checked "not a danger to himself, others blah blah"

 

EDIT: Also he had never lost his FID was just worried about losing it and he was telling me the cops tried several tactics to get a chance to look in his house, however thankfully I've educated him on several flexyourrights videos and declining police searches or even allowing them to talk to you in your house.

 

There was nothing really written on the paperwork for the discharge other than the above not a danger.

[springfieldxds 0]

This is complete bs, this state is in the shitter and is ready for a flush, I would tell your friend to phone a couple lawyers and ask them what his options are, he might even have a lawsuit option to throw at them

 

Ianal

[TheDon 3]

He was taken to a local hospital to their local "crisis" area. ..was never cuffed during the process.

During his time there he said he spoke to 3 different people and then was set home. The first one was

the basic medical screening, the 2nd was the "screener" and the 3rd was the doc. The doc and screener

both told him it seemed to be a mistake and on the discharge paperwork was checked "not a danger to himself, others blah blah"

Sounds like an ER doc. IMHO, if the doc was not a registered Psychiatrist, there can be no official diagnosis of a mental disorder.

Bulpup's advice to obtain the doc's name and details of his assessment is good advice. If it were me, I would file that info away just in case it gets challenged. But IMHO, based upon the information provided, he can truthfully answer NO to both questions.

 

#24--He was not confined or committed for treatment.

#26--It sounds like he was not treated for anything, let alone treated for a mental disorder.

 

Good to go. Most probably no record was filed with the county. If anything was filed, it should only serve to further document his immediate release.

[springfieldxds 0]

Quick question on this question, was he obligated to go? What would've happened if he refused?

[bulpup 98]

Despite all of the general agreement here, i do have to add one thing.

 

The devil is in the details.

 

Hospitals do in fact have psych doctors that are capable of making such diagnoses and they are at the ready 24 hours in most cases. So the OP says "the doc" and is probably right that it was a doctor. But a doctor in a crisis area set up for a mental evaluation is going to be a psych doctor. A psych doctor's paperwork is what the PD looks at when it does a mental heath background check. It may have been in the ER but It isn't exactly the same as going to the ER.

 

The other detail is that although the paperwork says "not a danger to others" the OP also calls them "discharge papers". That means he was processed for an evaluation, a doctor spoke with him and made a decision. That means a record. It is not "admitted" in the way most think about it, but there was paperwork done.

 

 

So although I still think he is not screwed for any new pistol permits and NJ is not likely to come looking for his FID, it is reasonable to expect that he will be called on this ordeal the next time he applies for a p2p. Hence the caution to be prepared for it.

 

 

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[Dan 177]

I hope everything works out for your friend as this is complete BS.

 

Its an unfortunate lesson to learn especially when living in the PRNJ... discretion when it comes to anything regarding guns, and now add to that our emotional state.

 

IMO, this type of activity plays into #4 on Naomi Wolf's "steps towards fascism".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

 

 

4. Set up an internal surveillance system

In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbors to spy on neighbors. The Stasi needed to keep only a minority of East Germans under surveillance to convince a majority that they themselves were being watched.

In 2005 and 2006, when James Risen and Eric Lichtblau wrote in the New York Times about a secret state programme to wiretap citizens' phones, read their emails and follow international financial transactions, it became clear to ordinary Americans that they, too, could be under state scrutiny.

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security"; the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent.

[Handyman 5,682]

This nation has gone very far down a bad road, and it is going to be hard to turn it back.

[302w 83]

This is some scary crap, that is for sure.

[raz-0 1,259]

I would encourage your friend to find an ambulance chaser. Then seek a sum in the low five figures. Most Universities can't mount a defense for under about $25k, and will cut you a check after some chest thumping.

 

You can't punch someone in the face that needs a good punc in the face anymore, but you can sick a sleazy lawyer on them.

[Handyman 5,682]

Wait until the next version of the DSM comes out. Libtards will probably get "desire to own a firearm" classified as a mental illness.

[TheDon 3]

I am agreeing with you that OP's friend needs all the record he can muster. But, I am seriously doubting there is a County health record for this incident.

 

Hospitals do in fact have psych doctors that are capable of making such diagnoses and they are at the ready 24 hours in most cases. So the OP says "the doc" and is probably right that it was a doctor. But a doctor in a crisis area set up for a mental evaluation is going to be a psych doctor. A psych doctor's paperwork is what the PD looks at when it does a mental heath background check. It may have been in the ER but It isn't exactly the same as going to the ER.

 

All doctors are required to do a Psychaitric rotation as part of their training. It is not safe to assume that a doctor in a crisis center or the crisis area of an ER is in fact a Psychiatrist and capable of making a Psychiatric diagnosis. I suspect, it is more than likely that OP's friend was treated by a doctor on his Psychiatric rotation and the hospital has a Psychiatrist on call.

 

The other detail is that although the paperwork says "not a danger to others" the OP also calls them "discharge papers". That means he was processed for an evaluation, a doctor spoke with him and made a decision. That means a record. It is not "admitted" in the way most think about it, but there was paperwork done.

 

There is no magic database of hospital records. The hospital or doctor would need to file a report with the County Health Department. This means paperwork. If there is no diagnosis, no treatment, just an intake and a discharge, I suspect it would be unlikely that they would do the paperwork. Possible, indeed. Likely, not.

 

So although I still think he is not screwed for any new pistol permits and NJ is not likely to come looking for his FID, it is reasonable to expect that he will be called on this ordeal the next time he applies for a p2p. Hence the caution to be prepared for it.

 

100% agree to get the documentation and sit on it in case the doc or the hospital was hypervigillent and loves to do paperwork. But the only way this is showing up is if the doc or the hospital reported it to the County. Further, simply being treated for a Psychiatric condition is not grounds for classifying someone as a "prohibited person." The law only says that a person who was committed or hospitalized for a mental disorder is prohibited.

[bulpup 98]

AH, psych rotation. Hadn't condsidered that. Well, I think we have this well covered.

[KramD52 0]

hmmm, maybe not any county records but certainly documented with the police department. Even though its not a criminal arrest they should still have the OP's friend listed in their records just like any other victim of an incident. He should definitely keep the info regarding his hospital "visit". The PD are the ones doing the background checks and they will check their own records.

 

My problem with the way this went down (based on the information available) is that it appeared the police overstepped their bounds with taking the guy in the first place. If the guy agrees to go, thats one thing, but based on the info given, they had no right just taking him just on someone else's claim. That is, unless he appeared despondent to them where they had a reasonable belief that he was a danger to himself or others. Obviously I wasn't there, and there could be a lot of info left out of this story. The quick release from the hospital kind of tells the tale though.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Excuse my skepticism, but are we sure this is not a trolling attempt?

[Shadow 1]

what possible reason would i need to troll? Because of my low post count?

Kind of busy and while i would like to post more with work and school + other stuff i do

I don't have much time to post on forums.

 

Anyway i asked him if I could scan a fraction of proof of the document showing the discharge only

sorry but he would rather any other information not be posted so everything else has been removed.

 

EDIT: Thanks for the help for on this guys ..i have passed along some of the suggestions about seeking legal

suit and he might be looking into doing so.

[Barms 98]

Cant believe nobody asked what town or what school this was..

 

This isnt even about 2nd ammendment.. it goes way beyond this .. it is about civil violations..

 

i wasnt even thinking about guns reading this entire travesty..

[TheDon 3]

OP,

Discharge papers are really not going to provide you too much insight. They just explain why your friend was allowed to leave.

He is going to get a bill. On that bill there will be a diagnosis. This may be in the form of a description or a code (ICD9 or ICD10). Google "ICD" and that code. See what it says. If that diagnosis is not a Psychiartic condition, he is free and clear. If it is, tell him to proceed as discussed adnaseum above.

[GunByte 2]

Gotta love those. See something? Say something commercials...

 

Brainless sheep.

 

Reminds me of what the Nazis did.

[MrSurfboard 1]

Sounds to me that he was taken in without his consent, which in NJ can be done if the crisis worker feels the person is a danger to himself or others. If this was the case, he may in deed have issues in the future depending on what town he lives in and if they look for any reason to deny a permit.