Does PRNJ gun laws promote (indirectly) ownership ?

[jackandjill 683]

First thread, so be gentle. I have a friend who just wanted to do some target practice with pellet gun.

Apparently, these are available over the counter in Mexico WallMart but not in PRNJ.

 

Upon researching, he concluded that there was no way to own a pellet / bb gun without FID.

So he went down the permit process and got FID and handgun permits.

 

In the process of researching legalities, he got educated in 2nd amendment, stupidity behind some of the

laws and responsible ownership. Forget the original pellet gun he wanted to buy, he is now

proud owner of few handguns, a shotgun and few rifles.

 

Strange way the PRNJ laws actually helped someone get guns that he never thought he would have.

[PK90 3,570]

When the government tells me that I can't have something, that makes me want it more.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

In general, no, the laws do not promote firearms ownership. NJ has some of the lowest per-capita ownership rates in the country.

 

What it does promote, is a small group of clingy, whiny people who have the interest and knowledge to know how strict the laws are, but lacking the numbers or power to ever do anything about it.

[NicePants 58]

When the government tells me that I can't have something, that makes me want it more.

 

This. Especially with the OGAM laws. People who normally would only buy one pistol are buying up 2-3 because they don't want their permits to expire.

[NicePants 58]

In general, no, the laws do not promote firearms ownership. NJ has some of the lowest per-capita ownership rates in the country.

 

What it does promote, is a small group of clingy, whiny people who have the interest and knowledge to know how strict the laws are, but lacking the numbers or power to ever do anything about it.

 

Somebody's jimmies sound rustled.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

This. Especially with the OGAM laws. People who normally would only buy one pistol are buying up 2-3 because they don't want their permits to expire.

 

This is not the promotion of gun ownership - it is mass purchasing by a small number of people.

 

1 guy with 10,000 rounds of ammo does not promote the shooting sports. 20 people with 500 rounds do.

 

That does not happen in NJ.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

All in all, you'll find double, triple, even quadruple amounts of per-capita gun ownership in places like California, Delaware, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

 

 

1, Kentucky

Population:4,314,113

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents (Dec. 2008 – May 2010): 134,028

 

2, Utah

Population:2,784,572

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 30,315

 

3, Montana

Population:974,989

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 25,745

 

4, Wyoming

Population:544,270

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 22,827

 

5, Alaska

Population:698,473

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 22,273

 

6, West Virginia

Population:1,819,777

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 21,455

 

7, South Dakota

Population:812,383

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 19,062

 

8, North Dakota

Population:646,844

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 17,829

 

9, Arkansas

Population:2,889,450

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 17,483

 

10, Alabama

Population:4,708,708

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 16,860

 

11, Tennessee

Population: 6,296,254

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 16,684

 

12, Oklahoma

Population: 3,687,050

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 15,801

 

13, Idaho

Population: 1,545,801

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 15,764

 

14, Colorado

Population: 5,024,748

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 15,086

 

15, Missouri

Population: 5,987,580

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 14,712

 

16, New Hampshire

Population: 1,324,575

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 14,522

 

17, Mississippi

Population: 2,951,996

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 14,165

 

18, Illinois

Population: 12,910,409

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 13,879

 

19, Connecticut

Population: 3,518,288

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 13,783

 

20, New Mexico

Population: 2,009,671

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 13,408

 

21, Louisiana

Population: 4,492,076

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 13,329

 

22, Minnesota

Population: 5,266,214

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 13,285

23, Kansas

Population: 2,818,747

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 12,516

 

24, Washington

Population: 6,664,195

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 12,508

 

25, Pennsylvania

Population: 12,604,767

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 12,449

 

26, Oregon

Population: 3,825,657

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 12,059

 

27, Indiana

Population: 6,423,113

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,614

 

28, South Carolina

Population: 4,561,242

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,578

 

29, Maine

Population: 1,318,301

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,528

 

30, Virginia

Population: 7,882,590

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 10,134

 

31, Iowa

Population: 3,007,856

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 10,127

 

32, Nevada

Population: 2,643,085

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 10,115

 

33, Texas

Population: 24,782,302

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,936

 

34, North Carolina

Population: 9,380,884

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,411

 

35, Vermont

Population: 621,760

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,366

 

36, Georgia

Population: 9,829,211

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,200

 

37, Michigan

Population: 9,969,727

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,030

 

38, Wisconsin

Population: 5,654,774

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,534

 

39, Ohio

Population: 11,542,645

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,491

 

40, Nebraska

Population: 1,796,619

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,081

 

41, Arizona

Population: 6,595,778

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,954

 

42, Florida

Population: 18,537,969

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,510

 

43, Delaware

Population: 885,122

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 5,636

 

44, California

Population: 36,961,664

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 5,444

 

45, Maryland

Population: 5,699,478

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 4,040

 

46, Massachusetts

Population: 6,593,587

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 3,796

 

47, Rhode Island

Population: 1,053,209

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 3,504

 

48, New York

Population: 19,541,453

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 3,047

 

49, Hawaii

Population: 1,295,178

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 2,031

 

50, New Jersey

Population: 8,707,739

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 1,536

 

51, Washington, D.C.

Population: 599,657

NICS background checks per 100,000 residents: 155

[mcbethr 42]

I think that in other areas of the country, people buy a gun on a whim, put 50 rounds through it, consider themselves "trained," throw it in the nightstand and forget about it. It's there if they ever need it. They don't go on gun boards or do the research.

 

I have a co-worker who lives in PA and also owns a bar. He wanted to buy a Taurus Judge to keep under the counter at the bar. I talked him out of buying a Taurus Judge and suggested a Glock or M&P. He bought a Glock. When I asked what kind of Glock he had he responded: "A Glock 9."

 

I said : "Yeah, but is it a 17, a 19, a 26."

 

He said : "It's just a Glock 9."

 

In PA, you can be a gun owner and not know a darn thing about the gun you own. In NJ, that's almost impossible because you have to be willing to jump through hoops and the uninterested get weeded out.

 

So while NJ's laws don't exactly promote firearms ownership, they do insure that the people who do own a gun are rabidly pro-gun.

[djg0770 481]

TSG and others, Kentucky is top of the list by a longshot because each month (as I recall) they run a NICS on each KY ccw permit holder whether they are buying a gun or not.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

TSG and others, Kentucky is top of the list by a longshot because each month (as I recall) they run a NICS on each KY ccw permit holder whether they are buying a gun or not.

 

i forgot about that, thank you.

 

Even excluding places like Kentucky, even "anti-gun" states like CA, MA, RI, etc. still have exponentially higher ownership rates than NJ.

[woodentoe 14]

Notwithstanding, the OP's question is not invalidated. If you want to buy an air gun or a bb gun, you are confronted with the same bureaucracy as if you were purchasing a firearm. Why buy an air gun, when in jumping through the same hoops you can have the real thing?

[mcbethr 42]

Even excluding places like Kentucky, even "anti-gun" states like CA, MA, RI, etc. still have exponentially higher ownership rates than NJ.

 

I think the difference there is that CA, MA and RI don't require permits. CA just does straight NICS for longarms, and a Handgun Safety Certificate for Handguns. There is a 10 day waiting period for handguns in California, but you can pretty much walk up and buy what you want. Massachusetts has a kind of FID that is broken into three classes (one for pepper spray, one for "normal" reduced capacity weapons, and one for "large capacity weapons" but the FID is basically a 1 day safety course. RI just requires a safety course and 7 day waiting period.

 

So again, it's NJ's arbitrary and antiquated permitting system that is hurting us. Any any of those states above, if you want a gun, you can get it without much trouble.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

I think the difference there is that CA, MA and RI don't require permits. CA just does straight NICS for longarms, and a Handgun Safety Certificate for Handguns. There is a 10 day waiting period for handguns in California, but you can pretty much walk up and buy what you want. Massachusetts has a kind of FID that is broken into three classes (one for pepper spray, one for "normal" reduced capacity weapons, and one for "large capacity weapons" but the FID is basically a 1 day safety course. RI just requires a safety course and 7 day waiting period.

 

So again, it's NJ's arbitrary and antiquated permitting system that is hurting us. Any any of those states above, if you want a gun, you can get it without much trouble.

 

Exactly, this is why I put "anti gun" in quotes. They have it much better in places like CA than here.

[KpdPipes 388]

I think the difference there is that CA, MA and RI don't require permits. CA just does straight NICS for longarms, and a Handgun Safety Certificate for Handguns. There is a 10 day waiting period for handguns in California, but you can pretty much walk up and buy what you want. Massachusetts has a kind of FID that is broken into three classes (one for pepper spray, one for "normal" reduced capacity weapons, and one for "large capacity weapons" but the FID is basically a 1 day safety course. RI just requires a safety course and 7 day waiting period.

 

So again, it's NJ's arbitrary and antiquated permitting system that is hurting us. Any any of those states above, if you want a gun, you can get it without much trouble.

 

No, you cant...there is a list of "Approved" handguns, and if what you want inst on that list..you're SOL..IIRC anything "Easily Concealed" is on the Oh Hell No" List

[Ray Ray 3,566]

In general, no, the laws do not promote firearms ownership. NJ has some of the lowest per-capita ownership rates in the country.

 

What it does promote, is a small group of clingy, whiny people who have the interest and knowledge to know how strict the laws are, but lacking the numbers or power to ever do anything about it.

 

Why is this woman not banned yet?

[KpdPipes 388]

Exactly, this is why I put "anti gun" in quotes. They have it much better in places like CA than here.

 

Yup.. 10-round mags..Much better, No removeable magazines unless you use a tool (ie "Bullet Button") .50 cal ban, "Approved" Handgun List, and my own favorite, You have to be an "Approved (ie pay for a permit) vendor to ship a firearm to a Ca FFL..which is why most gunbroker and Auction arms sales specify "No Sales to Cali". We have our issues, but we are nowhere near the worst

[TheSmokingGun 0]

Yup.. 10-round mags..Much better, No removeable magazines unless you use a tool (ie "Bullet Button") .50 cal ban, "Approved" Handgun List, and my own favorite, You have to be an "Approved (ie pay for a permit) vendor to ship a firearm to a Ca FFL..which is why most gunbroker and Auction arms sales specify "No Sales to Cali". We have our issues, but we are nowhere near the worst

 

You need to take into account that the majority of gun owners, both in NJ and "abroad" do not even have an interest in AR/AK type rifles. In CA, a guy who decides to get into guns can walk into a shop, buy a Rem 700, wait 10 days and walk out. A guy who decides its time to own something for home defense can pick out a nice 870 or S&W .357 and have it less than two weeks later, never having owned a gun before.

 

NJ subjects those very same people, the majority gun owners, to intimidation by local police, hassle, fees, and months of waiting and in some cases dealing with bs. All before they can even consider buying a gun.

 

Yes, AR/AK owners are taken down a bit by the bullet button, I will give you that. But 10 round mags are really not a big deal and I've been saying this for years. NJ is the only 15-ban state, so many companies do not even make 15 round mags. Yes, enthusiasts like the ones on this board can go and buy special 15rd magazines that often times cost a lot of money, are limited supply, and even special order sometimes. The rest are using 10-rounders here anyway. The other causes you listed, such as .50cal ban and Gunbroker sales, are once again things that only affect a very small percentage of gun owners. Not that those bans are "good" but rather, they are not sweeping.

 

The thing is, the permit is a big, big, big intimidating factor. To have a letter sent to your job, to have to "come out" to two people for references, to have to take time off work to get printed, these are bigger factors than your typical NJGF enthusiast will admit. Yes, some people have time/knowledge to cycle 9 P2Ps and exceptions, the other 95% of gun owners don't.

 

There is a huge factor for a citizen to be able to clandestinely own a legal firearm in their home without having to explain to anyone why, that is a lot more precious than 5 extra rounds in the magazine. And the numbers prove it - CA has triple as many firearms owners per capita than NJ.

[BlueLineFish 615]

In general, no, the laws do not promote firearms ownership. NJ has some of the lowest per-capita ownership rates in the country.

 

What it does promote, is a small group of clingy, whiny people who have the interest and knowledge to know how strict the laws are, but lacking the numbers or power to ever do anything about it.

 

So now you consider yourself part of this clingy whiny group. You should be gone troll if that how you view this group

[KpdPipes 388]

You need to take into account that the majority of gun owners, both in NJ and "abroad" do not even have an interest in AR/AK type rifles. In CA, a guy who decides to get into guns can walk into a shop, buy a Rem 700, wait 10 days and walk out. A guy who decides its time to own something for home defense can pick out a nice 870 or S&W .357 and have it less than two weeks later, never having owned a gun before.

 

NJ subjects those very same people, the majority gun owners, to intimidation by local police, hassle, fees, and months of waiting and in some cases dealing with bs. All before they can even consider buying a gun.

 

Yes, AR/AK owners are taken down a bit by the bullet button, I will give you that. But 10 round mags are really not a big deal and I've been saying this for years. NJ is the only 15-ban state, so many companies do not even make 15 round mags. Yes, enthusiasts like the ones on this board can go and buy special 15rd magazines that often times cost a lot of money, are limited supply, and even special order sometimes. The rest are using 10-rounders here anyway. The other causes you listed, such as .50cal ban and Gunbroker sales, are once again things that only affect a very small percentage of gun owners. Not that those bans are "good" but rather, they are not sweeping.

 

The thing is, the permit is a big, big, big intimidating factor. To have a letter sent to your job, to have to "come out" to two people for references, to have to take time off work to get printed, these are bigger factors than your typical NJGF enthusiast will admit. Yes, some people have time/knowledge to cycle 9 P2Ps and exceptions, the other 95% of gun owners don't.

 

There is a huge factor for a citizen to be able to clandestinely own a legal firearm in their home without having to explain to anyone why, that is a lot more precious than 5 extra rounds in the magazine. And the numbers prove it - CA has triple as many firearms owners per capita than NJ.

 

Spare me.....there were people in EVERY DAY looking for information on or bringing in their paperwork for initial FPID cards and handgun permits the last year and a half before I retired..NRA is signing up people at an UNHEARD of Rate, and the AR platform has become one of the most popular in the US.

[woodentoe 14]

When I started this journey last year, I did t have a strong desire to own an AR. I do now, after seeing them function and realizing that the scary black rifle thing is bs.

[NJMac 0]

In my case the PP process has me buying more handguns than I would have without. Rather than just buying what I really want now with the knowledge I can easily make another purchase at any point in the future, I've taken to guessing what I might want in the future and loading up with multiple PPs in each application and purchasing round. Seems historically any form of rationing encourages buying more than a consumer needs.

[mipafox 438]

In general, no, the laws do not promote firearms ownership. NJ has some of the lowest per-capita ownership rates in the country.

 

What it does promote, is a small group of clingy, whiny people who have the interest and knowledge to know how strict the laws are, but lacking the numbers or power to ever do anything about it.

 

And who also want to force a slightly lighter version of their horrible gun laws on the rest the the Nation.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Strange way the PRNJ laws actually helped someone get guns that he never thought he would have.

That's my exact story as well.

[Bob2222 317]

Strange way the PRNJ laws actually helped someone get guns that he never thought he would have.

 

That's kinda what happened with us. We lived in the Midwest quite a few years ago, and a firearms purchase was no big deal there. When we moved here, we had other priorities and the firearms stayed locked up and hidden away for the next 20 years.

 

In 2008, I thought that it might be a good idea to take some lessons and practice, but had very little in the way of a supply of ammo that included a 20-year old box of semi-wadcutter reloads that I had been given with the warning to never even THINK about reloading again. I just needed to buy ammunition. But you can't BUY ammunition in the Garden State without a FID card. So, several thousand dollars and a few weeks later, both my wife and I had new FID cards, and there were several more new firearms in the state of New Jersey.

 

This is called the "law of intended consequences", http://www.econlib.o...nsequences.html but I think that the hoops that New Jersey requires firearms (and ammunition) purchasers to jump through are such that it probably discourages more than it encourages.