ACTION ALERT: 2/27 Morris County Residents

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

via email;

 

Morristown Councilwoman Alison Deeb has organized a panel discussion in response to NJ SAFE, Governor Christie’s Task Force on gun violence, drug and alcohol addiction, mental illness, violence in society and school safety. The panel discussion will be held on Wednesday, February 27, 2013, from 6:30 pm to 8:30 pm at the Morris County Library in Whippany, New Jersey. This panel discussion is not commissioned by the State of New Jersey or NJ SAFE but hopes to give input into that process.

 

The expert panel includes: L. Michelle Borden, LCSW, DRCC, Chief Operating Officer, NewBridge Services, Inc.; Maurice Elias, PhD, Rutgers Professor and Expert on Youth Social Development; Detective/SSI Keisha Higgs, Community Affairs Unit, Morris County Prosecutor’s Office; Louis Schwarcz, MA, President & CEO, Mental Health Association of Morris County; Peter J. Tamburro, Jr., Secondary School Educator and Speaker on the Constitution and Bill of Rights; and David Walker, Executive Director, Neighborhood House. Robert W. Collins, Mayor of Kinnelon, will moderate the panel.

 

The councilwoman’s effort has not been commissioned by the State of New Jersey or NJ SAFE but the panel hopes to respond to and give input to that process. The NJ SAFE task force was commissioned by Governor Christie on January 17, 2013. The task force has 60 days to submit their recommendations.

 

We would like as many members as possible to attend and keep up our efforts on these Anti 2nd Amendment politicians. I will be putting up a link tonight on the NJ2AS.com website so that we can see how many people will be attending.

[millsan1 3]

I will be there. This panel is loaded with heavy hitters. Be prepared with hard facts, not just talking points.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

btt

[skorpion317 0]

I'm gonna try to be there. We need to pack that library with as many of us as possible.

[BCeagle 12]

I'll be there, I may have to leave my suit on so I look more professional.

 

I am fed up with these bastards, I finally joined NJ-2AS last night and I am willing to do what it takes.

[tblant 6]

I will be there.

[skorpion317 0]

Here's a thought - why don't we go on the offensive? Aside from the Feb. 8th rally, it seems we're mostly reacting to the anti-2A side's actions. We keep trying to put out brush fires - why don't we start some of our own? Let's get some pro-2A politicians to put together their own panels. Let's set up our own protests outside the offices of politicians. Take a page out of the radical progressive playbook.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

btt

[jamesnjjames 0]

what is NJ-SAF?

 

as far as pro-gun panels there is one tonight

 

Alexander P. Roubian Urban Outreach coordinator for NJ2AS and Assemblyman Michael Patrick Carroll will be discussing Second Amendment rights, violence, law enforcement, and legislation at the Hanover Township Republican Club.. all are invited!

 

Monday 2/25 Monroe Hall, 324 Whippany Road, Whippany NJ 07981, 7:30pm to 9:00pm

[DevsAdvocate 112]

My brother and I are going.

 

Okay folks, how about I live up to my name and present some anti-gun arguments, and you guys come up with facts/rebuttals?

 

- New Jersey is different from other states, our population density means that we need to restrict gun ownership to prevent people from injuring each other

 

- Magazine limitations will help limit the effect of mass shootings by giving people time to escape of fight back when the shooter reloads

 

- The 2nd Amendment, like the other Amendments is not an unlimited right. It does not guarantee the ownership of all weapons like machine guns, nukes, or battleships.

 

- Assault weapons have no practical use in home defense or hunting. I don't see how a shotgun or pistol isn't enough.

 

- Statistics show that the United States has more gun crime than any other industrialized nation, mainly because we have so many guns!

 

- Gun owners should meet mandatory training requirements and mental health evaluations prior to being allowed to own a gun. This will prevent accidents as well as keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

 

- Guns should be registered and accounted so that police can know ahead of time that a persons' home has one in it.

 

- Bullet casings should be serialized so that police can trace them to their owners after a crime

 

Is this something we expect to see? What kind of stuff do these people put out there?

[BCeagle 12]

what is NJ-SAF?

 

as far as pro-gun panels there is one tonight

 

Alexander P. Roubian Urban Outreach coordinator for NJ2AS and Assemblyman Michael Patrick Carroll will be discussing Second Amendment rights, violence, law enforcement, and legislation at the Hanover Township Republican Club.. all are invited!

 

Monday 2/25 Monroe Hall, 324 Whippany Road, Whippany NJ 07981, 7:30pm to 9:00pm

 

Sorry screwing up acronyms.

[Handyman 5,682]

My brother and I are going.

 

Okay folks, how about I live up to my name and present some anti-gun arguments, and you guys come up with facts/rebuttals?

 

- New Jersey is different from other states, our population density means that we need to restrict gun ownership to prevent people from injuring each other

 

- Magazine limitations will help limit the effect of mass shootings by giving people time to escape of fight back when the shooter reloads

 

- The 2nd Amendment, like the other Amendments is not an unlimited right. It does not guarantee the ownership of all weapons like machine guns, nukes, or battleships.

 

- Assault weapons have no practical use in home defense or hunting. I don't see how a shotgun or pistol isn't enough.

 

- Statistics show that the United States has more gun crime than any other industrialized nation, mainly because we have so many guns!

 

- Gun owners should meet mandatory training requirements and mental health evaluations prior to being allowed to own a gun. This will prevent accidents as well as keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

 

- Guns should be registered and accounted so that police can know ahead of time that a persons' home has one in it.

 

- Bullet casings should be serialized so that police can trace them to their owners after a crime

 

Is this something we expect to see? What kind of stuff do these people put out there?

 

 

1. How can ones rights be attenuated by population density? Can you alter my right to vote or speak based on population density? And if you intend to allow me firearms for self defense, I am much more likely to fall victim in a "population dense" area.

 

2. Police officers are allowed to carry several "high capacity" magazines to defend themselves. Why can we not be afforded the same right? If an armed intruder breaks into my residence, it is not likely I will have the presence of mind or opportunity to grab all kinds of spare magazines. I will grab the gun in my drawer. It should have as many bullets as possible to give me the best chance of survival.

 

3. If you feel so strongly that the seocnd amendement no longer applies, feel free to change it via Constitutional amendment.

 

4. Semi-automatic rifles (don't call them assault weapons) scare off intruders without the need for confrontation. Ask the Korean store owners during the LA riots.

 

5. US has more of every kind of crime. It is the product of our degenerate society. When the government runs out of cash for handouts, it will get exponentially worse.

 

6. These are designed to be obstacles to gun ownership, much like it has been argied that checking IDs is an obstacle to voting rights.

 

7. The NJ police have failed to meet even their most basic legal obligations in processing our current firearms paperwork. Adding additional paperwork leads to de facto restriction of our rights unless someone can prove they can work in a tiemly fashion.

 

8. I'll just use a revolver for future mayhem and take my casings with me.

[Handyman 5,682]

The expert panel includes:

 

What are the qualifications for "expertise"? Having seen the Die Hard movies?

[Howard 538]

I'll try to attend. What is the plan? Do we all sit together, hold signs, etc....? To just go and sit quiet makes it look like there are just lots of people that don't want guns there to listen.

[millsan1 3]

If it is like the SAFE meeting, you will be presented the opportunity to speak.

 

I suggest that anyone who wants to speak, does.

 

I also put forth that "It is my right" will fall on deaf ears. Pick one of proposed laws, read it, understand the implications and present how it is flawed. DO NOT rely on this board or emails you may have received. Do your own research, so you know from where you are speaking.

 

The panelists are some heavy hitters. If you plan on getting into a debate with a constitutional scholar, be forearmed with accurate knowledge.

 

Just my $.02.

 

That being said, I will be there and will speak on the Terrorist Watch list, using various data I have gathered from DHS, etc.

[skorpion317 0]

My brother and I are going.

 

Okay folks, how about I live up to my name and present some anti-gun arguments, and you guys come up with facts/rebuttals?

 

- New Jersey is different from other states, our population density means that we need to restrict gun ownership to prevent people from injuring each other

 

- Magazine limitations will help limit the effect of mass shootings by giving people time to escape of fight back when the shooter reloads

 

- The 2nd Amendment, like the other Amendments is not an unlimited right. It does not guarantee the ownership of all weapons like machine guns, nukes, or battleships.

 

- Assault weapons have no practical use in home defense or hunting. I don't see how a shotgun or pistol isn't enough.

 

- Statistics show that the United States has more gun crime than any other industrialized nation, mainly because we have so many guns!

 

- Gun owners should meet mandatory training requirements and mental health evaluations prior to being allowed to own a gun. This will prevent accidents as well as keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

 

- Guns should be registered and accounted so that police can know ahead of time that a persons' home has one in it.

 

- Bullet casings should be serialized so that police can trace them to their owners after a crime

 

Is this something we expect to see? What kind of stuff do these people put out there?

 

1. Population density is not an excuse to restrict individual rights.

 

2. Even an untrained shooter can change a magazine in a couple seconds. Unless you're Charles Mainor, in which case it'll take you 20 seconds.

 

3. This is a strawman argument intended to over-exaggerate the pro-gun position. The 2nd Amendment recognizes the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense, whether from criminals or a tyrannical government. Weapons such as nuclear weapons, battleships, etc. are capable of inflicting a large amount of damage to innocent bystanders and property. They are impractical for self-defense. A more discriminating method of self-defense, such as firearms, are necessary to ensure innocent bystanders and property are not harmed.

 

4. True assault rifles are heavily regulated under the NFA. Regardless, SCOTUS has ruled that the 2nd Amendment protects firearms that are of "military use". The term "assault weapon" is a recently-invented term for common semi-automatic rifles that are similar in appearance to military assault rifles. They are commonly used for self-defense, hunting, target shooting, etc. and have been for years. They are more accurate than pistols and shotguns, making them a practical choice for the aforementioned activities.

 

5. The U.S. also has a much larger population than other industrialized countries. Crime statistics will inevitably be higher.

 

6. This puts preconditions on the exercise of 2nd Amendment rights and is therefore an infringement. Do we require public speaking training before a person is allowed to exercise their 1st Amendment rights?

 

7. Registration always leads to confiscation. U.S. law also prohibits the government from gathering information about gun owners.

 

8. What happens when a criminal steals a gun and bullets, then commits a crime with them? While serialized cartridges may Sound like a good idea, in practice it will have no effect on crime.

[raz-0 1,259]

My brother and I are going.

 

Okay folks, how about I live up to my name and present some anti-gun arguments, and you guys come up with facts/rebuttals?

 

- New Jersey is different from other states, our population density means that we need to restrict gun ownership to prevent people from injuring each other

 

Via WISQRAS ( http://wisqars.cdc.gov:8080/cdcMapFramework/mapModuleInterface.jsp ) most recent data mapping which was 2000-2006, the per capita incident of fatal accidental firearms injuries per capita in NJ was below the national average (0.15 per 100k vs 0.25 nationally) , and below the majority of states, all of which have lower population densities than NJ. Same for homicides (2.78 per 100k vs 4.07 nationally), legal intervention (0.04 perk 100k vs 0.11 nationally), and suicides (1.96 per 100k vs. 5.81 nationally). From the same data set, California is less than 1/4 as populous (91 people per sq. km), and has more gun control laws than we do. IF population density mattered, and gun control laws helped, they should have lower numbers. Their rate per 100k for fatal unintentional injury was 0.22, homicides was 4.98, legal intervention was 0.20, and suicides was 4.05. Florida is the most populous state without a lot of gun control laws (131.14 per sq km) their injury rate was 0.13, which is less than NJ, homicide was 3.70 which was more than nj, legal intervention was 0.07, and suicide was 7.06 (if you look at the age adjusted rates rather than the curde rate, you will see that lots of old people in florida off themselves, for old folks the rate goes over 18 per 100k there)

 

DC, which is the only distinct reporting entity with a population density higher than NJ, at the time of the data set effectively banned firearm ownership, had a fatal accidental injury rate of 0.42 over 2xs higher than NJ. A homicide rate of 24.92 (murder capital yo!), a legal intervention rate of 0.15, and a suicide rate of 1.88. SO other than suicides, extremely strict gun control did nothing for the safety of DC. Given similar population densities (FL and CA), the place with more gun control is actually the place you are more likely to be killed by a gun. Given the argument increasing gun control, or decreasing population density should reduce the incidence of fatal shootings, california does both and increases your likelihood of being fatally shot.

 

I know the data is old, but given the decreasing rate of violent crime, these stats should be worse than the current state of affairs.

 

- Magazine limitations will help limit the effect of mass shootings by giving people time to escape of fight back when the shooter reloads

 

Lets see.. columbine and virginia tech were both perpetrated with 10 round magazines. In neither instance was the shooter stopped by intervention by outside parties. Both ended by suicide. VT after 49 people were shot (37 of whom died). Columbine had 33 shot (12 died). The aurora shooting killed 12 and injured 70. HE used a pump shotgun, an AR style rifle with a 30 round magazine which malfunctioned before emptying the 30 round magazine, and a glock 22. swapping long guns and dealing with a malfunction take less time than reloading, and reloaded with the handgun. Yet this helped nobody as he was apprehended without resistance in the parking lot. THe giffords shooting, the glock 22 malfunctioned after 30 of the 33 rounds were fired and people intervened. 6 people were killed int he attack and 14 were injured. Magazine capacity makes no difference, the primary difference are the presence of individuals willing to intervene as soon as possible.

 

- The 2nd Amendment, like the other Amendments is not an unlimited right. It does not guarantee the ownership of all weapons like machine guns, nukes, or battleships.

 

Historically, in the early days of the nation, the govenrment leased warships, cannon, mortars, and other crew served weapons from private individuals to wage war. These were the tools used to lay waste to cities and war on nations. Given the medical care of the day, and the proximity of those founding the government to the horrors of war on a first hand basis in their back yards, I would argue that the average person of today might be a wee bit scared of just how radical our founding fathers were and where they might draw the line. From a personal standpoint, I would say that the non crew served weapon loadout of your average infantry man might be a rational demarcation if one were probing for limits despite these being greatly exceeded in the past.

 

 

- Assault weapons have no practical use in home defense or hunting. I don't see how a shotgun or pistol isn't enough.

 

Everything out of a shotgun at in home ranges is basically a shotgun slug and will over penetrate in a similar manner. Pistol rounds being relatively slow and heavy will penetrate and retain momentum thus remaining fairly lethal on the other side of a wall or similar lightweight barrier if you miss. PIstols are harder to shoot accurately with minimal training than is a rifle or shotgun. A short barreled semi automatic rifle in .223/5.56 with appropriately chosen ammunition has all the benefits of a semi-auto pistol with easier to attain accuracy, and is more likely to fragment and slow when encountering a lightwieght barrier like the internal wall of a home. IT is also more likely to stop an assailant with one shot than a pistol meaning less rounds fired, which means less bullets flying overall.

 

- Statistics show that the United States has more gun crime than any other industrialized nation, mainly because we have so many guns!

This assumes that getting stabbed or otherwise killed is somehow superior to getting shot. The violent crime rate per capita and homicide rate per capita does not correlate with strict or loose gun control laws or ownership. What you have seen is that where countries that are culturally similar, with similar rates of violent crime, when firearms bans have been enacted, gun crime rates increase as do violent crime rates. The more permiable your borders, the worse this is (i.e. australia was an island far from places with lots of illegal gun trafficking, and had less issue than the UK, which basically was a drive and a channel crossing from lots of centers of illegal gun trafficking, and saw this effect in greater proportion). The US has increadibly porous borders, and there is LOTS of illegal arm trade to the south of us. Much like the fall of the USSR wound up with the average price paid for an illegal firearm dropping from over $500 previous to the ban down to $50-60 after the ban, the dollar's strength is likely to attract arms form south and central america, and in all likelihood these arms will be fully automatic military arms such as Mexico is having problems with.

 

- Gun owners should meet mandatory training requirements and mental health evaluations prior to being allowed to own a gun. This will prevent accidents as well as keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

Leaving aside the issue of placing a test in front of an incorporated enumerated right, which is generally considered unconstitutional, arbitrary training requirements and arbitrary mental health screening that can prevent you form exercising a right are just that, arbitrary. As the law is written, the results of that evaluation have no recourse to contest the results of the screening, nor a definition of where one draws the line of competency. As written, it permits an arbitrary mark to be set which may well be unattainable, and would equate to an outright ban. Additionally, training is no guarantee of less accidents. Police receive training, and many of them still have accidents. This is due in large part to the outcome of training being HIGHLY dependent on how invested the individual is in benefiting form that training. Lots of police regard the firearms training and qualification as a chore, and many departments do not allocate sufficient budget. The bar of police qualification is, despite media myths, pretty damn low. So you either set the bar that low or lower, or you start having to up the requirements of police to be armed in public. Or you require less trianing of an armed officer than a private gun owner who can't use their firearm outside the home or at a range.

 

 

- Guns should be registered and accounted so that police can know ahead of time that a persons' home has one in it.

 

In an average year about 50 cops die in the line of duty. A good chunk of that involves traffic fatalities. Naitonally, police kick down the incorrect door with a fully loaded out swat team WAY, WAY more often than a cop is killed by a firearm, much less a legally acquired firearm in the hands of it's owner. IF they can't get the address right, and the person right, what good will the data for a different address and a different person do them?

 

- Bullet casings should be serialized so that police can trace them to their owners after a crime

This is nothing other than either a backdoor ban by demanding non-existent technology, a useless waste of tax dollars, or a means of pricing ammo out of the reach of consumers price wise. Every ballistics database to date that does toolmark matching has been a boondoggle. Modern manufacturing methods means that you will either get too many matches because each model of gun is too similar, or you will get no matches because grit and grime creates too much difference between each shot fired form the same gun over time to be of use for a computer searching the database. There has been no sweet spot to date, and increasingly with the advent of DNA evidence, it is being demonstrated that toolmark evidence is less trustworthy than previously believed (i.e. hard math is saying the guy didn't do it, and the "it's more art than science" field of toolmark matching isn't calling the results right at the same frequency they claimed they would). NEither Canada's, nor NY states ballistic firngerprint DB has lead to a prosecution. They are a waste of money.

 

Microstamping, under the best circumstances has an incredibly low success rate in producing legible markings as applied by the inventor of the technology. The machinery is prohibitively expensive and proprietary. The net result is easily renderd 100% useless with the gentle application of a little abrasive. to the stamping surface.

[JOdoubleE953 0]

Got out of work early for Wednesday, see all you guys there. How will I know who to sit with? May be difficult to tell the gun guys from the non gun guys (sarcasm)

[skorpion317 0]

Maybe we can get some of those "Hi, my name is" stickers, and put NJGF on them?

[JOdoubleE953 0]

Any chance of this getting moved to Bucket 3 so that it can get any exposure for any members wanting to attend last minute?

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Any chance of this getting moved to Bucket 3 so that it can get any exposure for any members wanting to attend last minute?

 

What's so special about bucket 3? Why can't members find it here?

[JOdoubleE953 0]

What's so special about bucket 3? Why can't members find it here?

 

Just seems like a less active sector of the forum, thats all. On a side note, I am pretty excited about this. It will be my first time at an event of this nature. Any idea if I can expect traffic on 287N at that time of day?

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Just seems like a less active sector of the forum, thats all.

 

Activity comes and goes.....

 

.....but you'd think during these troubling times a bucket specifically for action alerts would be created so it would be a one stop shop.....

[Jeff 13]

That being said, I will be there and will speak on the Terrorist Watch list, using various data I have gathered from DHS, etc.

 

Hey, here's an idea if you haven't already thought of it to make the issues associated with the terrorist watch list approachable to your average person. Make an analogy with the credit bureaus and credit reports. Something like, "You all know the serious issues we have with identity theft, and how difficult it can be to get even the simplest error fixed or removed from your credit report, well imagine how difficult it would be if your name (or a similar variant) was on the terror watch list." And to maybe even drive the point home a little more, "and imagine if, while you were trying to get your credit report fixed, you were not allowed to use your credit card."

[DevsAdvocate 112]

fugg, I'm nervous. I don't even know what I want to talk about there...

[raz-0 1,259]

Hey, here's an idea if you haven't already thought of it to make the issues associated with the terrorist watch list approachable to your average person. Make an analogy with the credit bureaus and credit reports. Something like, "You all know the serious issues we have with identity theft, and how difficult it can be to get even the simplest error fixed or removed from your credit report, well imagine how difficult it would be if your name (or a similar variant) was on the terror watch list." And to maybe even drive the point home a little more, "and imagine if, while you were trying to get your credit report fixed, you were not allowed to use your credit card."

 

It's simpler than that. THe terrorist list is basically a name, if you are lucky it's first last and middle. Ask them if they'd be cool with getting a tax audit every time anyone with their same first and last name IN THE WORLD got flagged by any tax authority in the world for anything?

 

How would they like to get points on their license any time someone with the same name, anywhere in the world, got a moving violation?

 

This is the same thing.

[millsan1 3]

fugg, I'm nervous. I don't even know what I want to talk about there...

 

I was too, three weeks ago, now it is easy. I just suggest picking a specific topic, avoid the cliche, and present your opinion on that topic. You can't be wrong, as it is your opinion.

 

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Bob2222 317]

5. The U.S. also has a much larger population than other industrialized countries. Crime statistics will inevitably be higher.

 

 

It isn't the size of the US. The US has a far more diverse population than most other developed countries.

 

The homicide rate in Vermont, New Hampshire and Minnesota is the same or less than the homicide rate is in countries in Northern Europe. It's higher in US states that have the most diverse populations.

 

Mexico's homicide rate is five times the homicide rate of the United States.

 

And Mexico has far more stringent gun control than New Jersey.

 

About half of all homicides committed in the US are by minorities, according to FBI statistics. Another 10-20% of murders are flat-out crazy. But all of these new and old draconian gun laws are directed towards the sane, law-abiding citizens who make up the majority if the US population.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/a...de-data-table-3

 

If they can't first identify the problem correctly, they will never, ever be able to fix it.

 

Lets see.. columbine and virginia tech were both perpetrated with 10 round magazines.

 

 

On April 20, Harris was equipped with a 12-gauge Savage-Springfield 67H, pump-action shotgun, (which he discharged a total of 25 times) and a Hi-Point 995 9 mm carbine with thirteen 10-round magazines, which he fired a total of 96 times.

 

Klebold was equipped with a 9mm Intratec TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun with one 52-, one 32-, and one 28-round magazine and a 12-gauge Stevens 311D double-barreled sawed-off shotgun. Klebold primarily fired the TEC-9 handgun, for a total of 55 times.

 

 

If this is correct, these would have been pre-AWB 1.0 mags. Suggest checking this fact before presenting evidence to the contrary. I realize this is nit picking, but the gun grabbers take extreme liberty with facts (some might call it "lying") but at least we should try to be accurate.

 

OTOH, they did use a "Biden special" (double-barrel shotgun)!

[skorpion317 0]

I wasn't able to make it, had to work overtime. Anybody got any updates?

[wooly bugger 1]

This is a complete waste of time. Panelists just reading predictable lectures off a piece of paper. No discussion. I can't believe these people are "prominent experts." A bunch of 10th graders could do better.

 

Anyone from the forum here? I'm sitting near the podium wearing green flannel and glasses.