Right of Blind Person under Federal Law-ADA to carry permit

[SJG 253]

DES MOINES, Iowa -- Here's some news that has law enforcement officials and lawmakers scratching their heads:

Iowa is granting permits to acquire or carry guns in public to people who are legally or completely blind.

No one questions the legality of the permits. State law does not allow sheriffs to deny an Iowan the right to carry a weapon based on physical ability.

The quandary centers squarely on public safety. Advocates for the disabled and Iowa law enforcement officers disagree over whether it's a good idea for visually disabled Iowans to have weapons.

On one side: People such as Cedar County Sheriff Warren Wethington, who demonstrated for The Des Moines Register how blind people can be taught to shoot guns. And Jane Hudson, executive director of Disability Rights Iowa, who says blocking visually impaired people from the right to obtain weapon permits would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. That federal law generally prohibits different treatment based on disabilities

On the other side: People such as Dubuque County Sheriff Don Vrotsos, who said he wouldn't issue a permit to someone who is blind. And Patrick Clancy, superintendent of the Iowa Braille and Sight Saving School, who says guns may be a rare exception to his philosophy that blind people can participate fully in life.

Private gun ownership — even hunting — by visually impaired Iowans is nothing new. But the practice of visually impaired residents legally carrying firearms in public became widely possible thanks to gun permit changes that took effect in Iowa in 2011.

"It seems a little strange, but the way the law reads we can't deny them (a permit) just based on that one thing," said Sgt. Jana Abens, a spokeswoman for the Polk County Sheriff's Department, referring to a visual disability.

Polk County officials say they've issued weapons permits to at least three people who can't legally drive and were unable to read the application forms or had difficulty doing so because of visual impairments.

And sheriffs in three other counties — Jasper, Kossuth and Delaware — say they have granted permits to residents who they believe have severe visual impairments.

"I'm not an expert in vision," Delaware County Sheriff John LeClere said. "At what point do vision problems have a detrimental effect to fire a firearm? If you see nothing but a blurry mass in front of you, then I would say you probably shouldn't be shooting something."

Training the visually impaired

In one Iowa county, blind residents who want weapons would likely receive special training.

Wethington, the Cedar County sheriff, has a legally blind daughter who plans to obtain a permit to carry when she turns 21 in about two years. He demonstrated for the Register how he would train blind people who want to carry a gun.

"If sheriffs spent more time trying to keep guns out of criminals' hands and not people with disabilities, their time would be more productive," Wethington said as he and his daughter took turns practice shooting with a semi-automatic handgun on private property in rural Cedar County.

The number of visually impaired or blind Iowans who can legally carry weapons in public is unknown because that information is not collected by the state or county sheriffs who issue the permits.

Clancy, superintendent of the Iowa Braille and Sight Saving School, said the range of sight among people who are classified as legally blind varies greatly. He believes there are situations where such applicants can safely handle a gun.

Quentin DeVore, a legally blind Army veteran from Newton, Iowa photographed in March 2013, is a gun enthusiast and collector. Despite his vision impairment, DeVore holds a permit to carry a firearm, and says he is well within his legal rights to do so.(Photo: Bryon Houlgrave, The Des Moines Register)

However, he also expressed concerns.

"Although people who are blind can participate fully in nearly all life's experiences, there are some things like the operation of a weapon that may very well be an exception," Clancy said.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 and other federal laws do not prohibit blind people from owning guns. But unlike Iowa, some states have laws that spell out whether visually impaired people can obtain weapon permits.

Vision requirements are either directly or indirectly part of the weapon permit criteria in some surrounding states.

In Nebraska, for example, applicants for a permit to carry a concealed handgun must provide "proof of vision" by either presenting a valid state driver's license or a statement by an eye doctor that the person meets vision requirements set for a typical vehicle operator's license.

Other states have indirect requirements that could — but don't automatically — disqualify people who are blind. That includes Missouri and Minnesota, where applicants must complete a live fire test, which means they have to shoot and hit a target.

A 50-state database of gun permit requirements published by USACarry.com also shows that South Carolina has a law that requires proof of vision before a person is approved for a weapons permit.

Wisconsin, like Iowa, has no visual restrictions on gun permit applicants. Illinois lawmakers enacted a concealed weapons law in July but permits have not yet been issued. Illinois' qualifications don't specifically require a visual test, but applicants must complete firearms training that includes range instruction.

The National Federation of the Blind does not track states that require vision tests as part of weapon permit processes and has not taken an official stand on the issue. But its members are generally opposed to such laws, said Chris Danielsen, director of public relations for the group.

"There's no reason solely on the (basis) of blindness that a blind person shouldn't be allowed to carry a weapon," Danielsen said. "Presumably they're going to have enough sense not to use a weapon in a situation where they would endanger other people, just like we would expect other people to have that common sense."

Iowa requires training for anyone who is issued a permit to carry a weapon in public, but that requirement can be satisfied through an online course that does not include any hands-on instruction or a shooting test.

A provision in Iowa's law allows sheriffs to deny a permit if probable cause exists to believe that the person is likely to use the weapon in such a way that it would endanger themselves or others. Many sheriffs noted, however, that the provision relates to specific documented actions, and applicants who appealed their cases would likely win.

Hudson, executive director of Disability Rights Iowa, believes changing the state law to deny blind people or others with physical disabilities the right to carry arms would violate federal disabilities law.

Part of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires a public entity to conduct an individualized analysis to make a reasonable judgment before denying a service. Hudson believes someone could successfully challenge Nebraska's proof of vision requirement as illegal.

"The fact that you can't drive a car doesn't mean you can't go to a shooting range and see a target," Hudson said.

My comment: it is amazing to me that a blind person might be in a better position, than a sighted one, as they can argue they have a right to a carry permit under the ADA and the Second Amendment

[PK90 3,570]

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[SJG 253]

My opinion is in the last paragraph

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I don't have any issue with anyone owning guns because of a physical disability... however, using them IS a different story.

 

If you have vision that CAN be correctable and don't meet the "legally blind" criteria using them, then i see no issues with the use... many people wear glasses, contacts.

 

However, the real issues is practicing SAFE firearm practices... if you cant see what or where your shooting... then you shouldn't be operating a firearm... that violates the basic principles of firearm safety.. or you would be required to have someone assist you to make sure safety is being ensured, or find a way to eliminate the use of the eyes while being safe.

 

"Presumably they're going to have enough sense not to use a weapon in a situation where they would endanger other people, just like we would expect other people to have that common sense."

What determines enough sense? and how do all of our sense lead to "common sense". being able to see your target and beyond is the single most import sense when it comes to firearm safety. Basically, the only time it would be deemed responsible is if someone was in direct contact with you and you managed to shoot them at point blank range in a downward poi.

 

Unless of course your the dare devil.

[Pythagoras 2]

Does there exist at least one way in which it possible for a visually-impaired person to use a firearm safely? In my view, yes.

 

Therefore, they have every right in the world to own and carry one, so long as they use it in a safe manner.

[bravozulu14 0]

^ this.  Constitutionally protected self-defense is a natural right of everyone, the disabled included.  I'd be willing to bet the blind are even more conscientious of firearm safety because of their disability compared to the fully capable jack knobs we see with their booger hooker on the bang switch NDing all over the place.

[vjf915 456]

^ this.  Constitutionally protected self-defense is a natural right of everyone, the disabled included.  I'd be willing to bet the blind are even more conscientious of firearm safety because of their disability compared to the fully capable jack knobs we see with their booger hooker on the bang switch NDing all over the place.

Assuming that a blind person would handle a firearm safer just because of their disability is...foolish.  That happens because of ignorance or carelessness.

 

One of the basic rules of firearms is to be aware of what's behind your target.  That's likely not possible if you're visually impaired to the point of being legally, or even completely blind.  I don't want to completely disagree with granting the visually impaired the right to carry, however I think it should be dealt with on an individual basis.

[PeteF 1,044]

 I don't want to completely disagree with granting the visually impaired the right to carry, however I think it should be dealt with on an individual basis.

Just a point, rights aren't granted. You have aright or you don't.

 

How would you do in a completely dark house at night compared to a blind person?

An unlit alley?

 

I posit that because of there disability, a blind person would do better than a sighted person.

[vjf915 456]

Just a point, rights aren't granted. You have aright or you don't.

 

How would you do in a completely dark house at night compared to a blind person?

An unlit alley?

 

I posit that because of there disability, a blind person would do better than a sighted person.

I have a flashlight mounted to, or a handheld next to any firearm I'm willing to use for home defense.  I've never been able to carry, so I've never contemplated what I'd do.  However your eyes do adjust to minimal light over time, and even in an unlit alley the streets that the alley connects to are likely going to be lit.  So I still don't understand how someone who's blind or even visually impaired would defend themselves better than someone who can see.  Maybe I just lack an imagination 

[PeteF 1,044]

I have a flashlight mounted to, or a handheld next to any firearm I'm willing to use for home defense.  I've never been able to carry, so I've never contemplated what I'd do.  However your eyes do adjust to minimal light over time, and even in an unlit alley the streets that the alley connects to are likely going to be lit.  So I still don't understand how someone who's blind or even visually impaired would defend themselves better than someone who can see.  Maybe I just lack an imagination 

How do you do in the first 3 seconds when you wake up?  Have your eyes adjusted?  How about after you get a light flashed at you in pitch black?  How about when your batteries fail? Bulb burns out? A blind person does not have issues with these conditions.

I venture to say a blind persons sense of hearing is much more acute than a sighted person. Especially in a house that a blind person knows well, how is a sighted stranger gonna do?

Yes being blind might make some things harder, but sure as shit, being blind doesn't forfeit the right to protect themselves.

[vjf915 456]

How do you do in the first 3 seconds when you wake up?  Have your eyes adjusted?  How about after you get a light flashed at you in pitch black?  How about when your batteries fail? Bulb burns out? A blind person does not have issues with these conditions.

I venture to say a blind persons sense of hearing is much more acute than a sighted person. Especially in a house that a blind person knows well, how is a sighted stranger gonna do?

Yes being blind might make some things harder, but sure as shit, being blind doesn't forfeit the right to protect themselves.

I'm not firing my home defense gun within the first 3 seconds after waking up, I'm still going to be assessing the situation.  And I buy quality products and replace batteries as necessary to reduce the possibility of equipment failure.  Again, assuming that someone who is visually impaired, or even completely blind, can effectively defend themselves while ensuring that no innocent bystanders are harmed is foolish.

[PeteF 1,044]

I'm not firing my home defense gun within the first 3 seconds after waking up, I'm still going to be assessing the situation.  And I buy quality products and replace batteries as necessary to reduce the possibility of equipment failure.  Again, assuming that someone who is visually impaired, or even completely blind, can effectively defend themselves while ensuring that no innocent bystanders are harmed is foolish.

 

How long does it take someone to kick in your door and make it to the bedroom?  I really hope you have time to wake, realize whats going on,  get your gun and flashlight  and asses the situation before they make it to you. Do lightbulbs burnout? Do batteries die?  Blind person lives alone what bystander will be hurt?   Close your eyes have someone make a noise can you point to it within a few inches? 

[bravozulu14 0]

Assuming that a blind person would handle a firearm safer just because of their disability is...foolish.  That happens because of ignorance or carelessness.

 

One of the basic rules of firearms is to be aware of what's behind your target.  That's likely not possible if you're visually impaired to the point of being legally, or even completely blind.  I don't want to completely disagree with granting the visually impaired the right to carry, however I think it should be dealt with on an individual basis.

 

Yes, one of the basic "rules" of firearms is to be aware of what's behind your target, however in a self-defense situation, NO ONE is 100% sure of what's behind their target.  You're 100% sure that the old lady next door isn't sitting up in her bedroom which is on the other end of your AR muzzle?  Non-sense.  You're 100% sure that there isn't someone in your family who was getting a snack, sleep walking, startled by the intruder, who is on the other side of the wall directly behind your muzzle and the intruder?  Non-sense.  

 

In a self-defense situation EVERYONE is entitled to the right to bear arms for self-defense.  It is a RIGHT, not a privilege.  The firearm safety "rules" are mostly to ensure no one gets hurt in controlled situations of training, plinking and handling. 

[vjf915 456]

How long does it take someone to kick in your door and make it to the bedroom?  I really hope you have time to wake, realize whats going on,  get your gun and flashlight  and asses the situation before they make it to you. Do lightbulbs burnout? Do batteries die?  Blind person lives alone what bystander will be hurt?   Close your eyes have someone make a noise can you point to it within a few inches? 

Well IF they kick the door in on the first try, and IF their intent is only to break into my house and harm me, and IF they know the exact layout of my house and run full speed, then it would take them about 7 seconds.  You're right, 7 seconds most likely not enough time to wake up, assess the situation, and get ready to defend myself.  However you're creating highly unlikely scenarios to try and prove your point.  Most break-ins don't start with the burglar kicking the door in, they normally try to sneak in.  Most break-ins don't occur with the intent to harm the residents, they are normally trying to burglarize the residence and get away without being noticed.  Most break-ins don't occur where the burglar knows the exact layout of the house, they normally know the surrounding area and not the layout of the house.  In fact, most break-ins occur in the middle of the day, when the burglar knows that there's likely nobody in the house.  Again, your scenarios are highly unlikely.  Now the likelihood of a visually impaired or legally blind person not being able to assess if someone is a threat and if it's safe to defend themselves, that's pretty likely.

[virpacalis 1]

All have the right to shoot at human targets even if they are impossible to see? Good luck with that. Problems: all and impossible.

[bravozulu14 0]

"likely" has nothing to do with the argument of rights.  An American citizen has rights.  Does a blind person surrender their freedom of speech?  Their right to due process of law?  Their right to remain silent?  Their freedom of religion?  Of course not, and they do not surrender their right to bear arms.  As free men and women, it is their right.  If they break the law, commit murder, use the firearm in the commission of a crime, etc then they will be tried and if convicted, lose those rights after due process of law.  But you don't take their right away before they've committed any crime.  Let's walk down that road.... statistically speaking, if X ethnicity commits more violent crime with a firearm than any other ethnicity, do you then revoke that ethnicity's natural, Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms because "they're more likely to commit a violent crime anyway".  No of course not.  That's insanity.

[vjf915 456]

I'm not saying that their right should just be automatically revoked.  However it cannot be argued that everyone who is visually impaired or blind can safely defend themselves using a firearm.  I obviously have views that differ from some other members in this thread.  I'm willing to walk away and accept that.

[SJG 253]

Blind Person Shooting for First Time