AR-15 Rail - Need Help

[Teky0101 6]

Hello Everyone,

I have a Smith and Wesson M&P AR which has a gas block and delta ring. Does anyone know of rock solid freefloat handguard which would be simple to install without removing the delta ring? I really need some help since I am planning on taking some courses in the future and my optic needs to be mounted to the rail and cannot move or I can loose my zero. Thank you for your help!

[Teky0101 6]

Hello Everyone,

I have a Smith and Wesson M&P AR which has a gas block and delta ring. Does anyone know of rock solid freefloat handguard which would be simple to install without removing the delta ring? I really need some help since I am planning on taking some courses in the future and my optic needs to be mounted to the rail and cannot move or I can loose my zero. Thank you for your help!

[checko 180]

Check out the Daniel Defense Omega rail. I have one and its pretty solid

 

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[High Exposure 5,669]

Daniel Defense Omega 7 or Omega 9.

 

Pricey but worth every penny. I have one on my work gun (DD Omega 7 - for carbine length gas systems) and just took one off a midlength (DD Omega 9).

 

Low pro gas block on your AR?

 

If so, you can Dremel the delta ring off (takes all of 3 minutes if you go slow and careful) and use a Troy or Samson FF Tube on it as they use a standard barrel nut.

 

Now, about that optic placement....

 

Do not mount it to the rail over your barrel. It should be mounted to the upper receiver above the ejection port. Mounting it in the FF rail defeats the purpose of the free float.

 

The optic is mounted to the upper receiver.

The barrel is mounted to the upper receiver.

They stay aligned regardless of what happens to ge rail because the rail does not touch the barrel.

If the rail rests on something, it doesn't move the barrel or the optic.

 

Look at every AR photo posted here. They all have the optics in the same place. Over the center of balance of the rifle, not over the hot barrel, not on a rail which *could* move on you throwing off your zero/aim.

 

Here is my issued work gun with the DD Omega 7 on it:

 

 

Note the position of the optic - on the upper receiver, above the magazine and ejection port at the center of balance of the rifle.

[checko 180]

BTW why does your optic need to be on the rail? Even free float rails can flex and shift zero

 

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[checko 180]

Yeah, that.

 

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[Teky0101 6]

Thank you for the help and for the rail suggestions. The reason the optic (Vortex Strikefire) is mounted to the rail is because I have a swing out magnifier which provides a 3x zoom. When the magnifier is out the two optics co-witness.

[High Exposure 5,669]

The magnifier and the optic should both fit in the upper receiver without having to move out to the rail.

 

Don't compromise your primary optics effectiveness and reliability in order to facilitate the use of a piece of ancillary equipment.

[Vlad G 345]

Thank you for the help and for the rail suggestions. The reason the optic (Vortex Strikefire) is mounted to the rail is because I have a swing out magnifier which provides a 3x zoom. When the magnifier is out the two optics co-witness.

 

Like everyone else is saying, they both should fit on the upper receiver. Putting them anywhere else is horribly wrong.

[checko 180]

 

It will fit

 

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[n4p226r 105]

I like the centurion arms rail the best for ones that attach to the standard barrel nut.

[jrfly3006 42]

Another vote for the DD Omega...solid piece..totally worth the $$

 

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[SW9racer 262]

for the drop in free float, any thoughts between the DD vs Troy? (Is the DD discontinued?)

[Scorpio64 5,163]

 

Does anyone know of rock solid freefloat handguard which would be simple to install without removing the delta ring?

 

 

I don't know why nobody has addressed this yet but, here goes.  If you keep the delta ring, standard barrel nut and end cap, you will not have a free floated hand guard.  I believe what you may be looking for (or referring to) is a  two piece "drop in" handguard. but that type of HG is not free floated.  If you do, in fact, want to free float the HG, you will have to remove just about everything from the barrel.  Free floated HGs do not touch anything other than the usually proprietary barrel nut that comes with it.

 

What has been mentioned, is that it's a bad idea to mount an optic in such a way that it bridges the receiver and hand guard.  This is absolutely true.  Even if the mount is a one piece, any flexing between the HG and the receiver can throw off the zero by a few degrees..A two piece mount will be worse. 

 

I didn't see any mention of what optic(s) you will be mounting but in any case, you can use a cantilevered mount that hangs over your hand guard.  If you are using a low power fixed or variable magnification tactical scope, you can get a one piece cantilevered mount. Easy peasy.  If you are using a red dot with a magnifier, look at Checko's rifle for a good example.  The red dot hangs over the HG and the magnifier sits behind it.

 

You certainly do not need to free float the HG to have a good accurate rifle.  Personally, I do not like the look or feel of a spiky quad rail but that's just my own opinion.  Midwest Industries makes excellent 2 piece drop in quad rails, M-Lok and Key-Mod compatible rails that use all of your existing hardware, hence the name "drop in". 

 

Good luck, have fun and don't hoot your eye out kid.

[High Exposure 5,669]

I don't know why nobody has addressed this yet but, here goes. If you keep the delta ring, standard barrel nut and end cap, you will not have a free floated hand guard. I believe what you may be looking for (or referring to) is a two piece "drop in" handguard. but that type of HG is not free floated. If you do, in fact, want to free float the HG, you will have to remove just about everything from the barrel. Free floated HGs do not touch anything other than the usually proprietary barrel nut that comes with it.

Incorrect.

 

The DD Omega 7 and Omega 9 rails are fully free floating.

 

https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/omega-rail/omega-rail-7-0-carbine.html

 

They are a 2 piece design that clamps directly to the barrel nut and are held fast with four set screws, all without the need to remove the delta ring.

 

They rails stop just short of the end cap so nothing has to be removed or altered.

 

If I remember correctly, they were designed to provide a free float fore-end on a rifle that, by policy, could have no permanent alterations - many LE and .gov agencies have this policy.

[Scorpio64 5,163]

Incorrect.

 

The DD Omega 7 and Omega 9 rails are fully free floating.

 

https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/omega-rail/omega-rail-7-0-carbine.html

 

They are a 2 piece design that clamps directly to the barrel nut and are held fast with four set screws, all without the need to remove the delta ring.

 

They rails stop just short of the end cap so nothing has to be removed or altered.

 

If I remember correctly, they were designed to provide a free float fore-end on a rifle that, by policy, could have no permanent alterations - many LE and .gov agencies have this policy.

 

So, no part of the 2 piece drip in FF touches anything but the barrel nut?  If the gas block does not come off, what happens to the end cap?

[High Exposure 5,669]

The end cap stays put. The rail stops a CH before it.

 

Here you can see the gap between the rail and end cap, with the barrel and gas tube.

 

 

If you want to, you could cut it off with tin snips or a Dremel, but if you need it to remain "unmodified" you can just leave it as is.

 

If I am issued a new rifle tomorrow, I can have this one back in the condition is was issued to me (standard handguatds, carry handle on the flat top upper, A2 grip, Colt carbine stock) in about 10 minutes, and catch no flack from admin for an "altered weapon".

[Scorpio64 5,163]

Well, I cant really agree that is a free float system with vestigial components remaining.  DD and others may call it that for marketing, and it may but the objective of FF is to eliminate as much harmonic interference from the barrel as possible.  I still stand by my statement that 2 piece drop ins are great, but I cannot agree that it is truly free floated.  In any case, if what the OP actually wants is just  a 2 piece drop in rail to add more goodies, it's a mute point anyway.

[MidwestPX 172]

I'd leave the end cap as they can affect location of the gas block relative to the gas port with gas blocks that aren't pinned to the bbl.

[MidwestPX 172]

Well, I cant really agree that is a free float system with vestigial components remaining.  DD and others may call it that for marketing, and it may but the objective of FF is to eliminate as much harmonic interference from the barrel as possible.  I still stand by my statement that 2 piece drop ins are great, but I cannot agree that it is truly free floated.  In any case, if what the OP actually wants is just  a 2 piece drop in rail to add more goodies, it's a mute point anyway.

Wait, what? Free float means it doesn't touch the barrel beyond the mounting point. How does being a drop-in change that?

[High Exposure 5,669]

Well, I cant really agree that is a free float system with vestigial components remaining. DD and others may call it that for marketing, and it may but the objective of FF is to eliminate as much harmonic interference from the barrel as possible. I still stand by my statement that 2 piece drop ins are great, but I cannot agree that it is truly free floated. In any case, if what the OP actually wants is just a 2 piece drop in rail to add more goodies, it's a mute point anyway.

The tube touches only the barrel nut.

 

The tube is not touching the barrel.

 

The tube is not touching anything that is touching the barrel.

 

The tube is not touching anything that is touching anything else that is touching the barrel.

 

How is that not free floating?

 

What's wrong with the standard barrel nut?

 

Let the OP decide what is a moot point. He may want a free float tube that doesn't require swapping the barrel nut or removing the delta ring. If so, the DD Omega checks every box on his list of requirements.

[Scorpio64 5,163]

Let the OP decide what is a moot point. He may want a free float tube that doesn't require swapping the barrel nut or removing the delta ring. If so, the DD Omega checks every box on his list of requirements.

 

......... Ahhhh....never mind.  Carry on.

[voyager9 3,438]

The tube touches only the barrel nut.

 

The tube is not touching the barrel.

 

The tube is not touching anything that is touching the barrel.

 

The tube is not touching anything that is touching anything else that is touching the barrel.

 

Anyone else read that with a rhythm of Dr Suess?

[n4p226r 105]

Vltor casv also keeps delta ring and is 100% free float

[High Exposure 5,669]

Vltor casv also keeps delta ring and is 100% free float

Right, I forgot about those. They attach to the upper receiver by clamping on to the flat top rail. There is an ARMS rail that does that too (the SIR I think?) but it is heavy, expensive, and gets loose.

[MidwestPX 172]

Right, I forgot about those. They attach to the upper receiver by clamping on to the flat top rail. There is an ARMS rail that does that too (the SIR I think?) but it is heavy, expensive, and gets loose.

And ARMS...

[SW9racer 262]

I also have a M&P 15 ORC that I am happy with, but do want to add a few mods. Would it be cheaper to add the DD Omega and have the barrel threaded, or sell it and go with something new that already has these?

[checko 180]

Probably not going to be cheaper. Threading and pinning a comp should be relatively inexpensive depending on the comp. DD rails aren't cheap but are a good value.

 

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[Vlad G 345]

Also new barrels aren't that expensive depending on your needs, which means you don't need to sell the entire gun, just by the parts you need and build it on the rest of the gun, or have someone else do it for you.

 

To me, the retrofit type handguards do not present enough savings to use them over a more purpose built arrangement.

 

The other things is ... what accessories do you guys want to attach to it? Personally a white light and a sling is all most rifles need and those two things don't require complex upgrades. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of free float handguards, if I was going to use something like the two piece arrangement .. I dunno I might stick with a magpul replacement handguard, attach a light and a sling and spend the rest of the money on ammo.

[High Exposure 5,669]

The other things is ... what accessories do you guys want to attach to it? Personally a white light and a sling is all most rifles need and those two things don't require complex upgrades. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of free float handguards, if I was going to use something like the two piece arrangement .. I dunno I might stick with a magpul replacement handguard, attach a light and a sling and spend the rest of the money on ammo.

^^^ This. Read the bold portion twice. Much wisdom there.

 

If you are planning on having one gun and all you are doing is putting a white light and sling on it the Magpul MOE Handguards are perfect and very affordable.

 

Here's my house gun:

 

It will do everything I could ever need it to do, whether in class or in defense of my family.