Where is SAF and GOA in NJ?

[capt14k 2,052]

they don't want to fix the problem, 'cause there's less money in the cure than the treatment.

 

I really think that is true. Same with Cancer and many other non profits. Think about how many people would be out of jobs if any of the things these non profits deal with were cured.

 

Edit Not saying this is the case with CNJFO. They don’t take salaries as far as I know so there is no profit in it for them.

 

 

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[Smokin .50 1,907]

4 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

they don't want to fix the problem, 'cause there's less money in the cure than the treatment.

Such BULLSH!T!  It's SO easy shit-talkin' on a forum, ain't it?  I would love to fix the problem & simply go-away, back to being myself:  a mentor, a student of weapons craft, an IDPA and USPSA action shooter, a black powder competition winner, a BSA Shooting Sports Merit Badge Counselor, etc., etc.  I gave up all of those things so I can be here being insulted by the likes of YOU, lol!

[capt14k 2,052]

Such BULLSH!T!  It's SO easy shit-talkin' on a forum, ain't it?  I would love to fix the problem & simply go-away, back to being myself:  a mentor, a student of weapons craft, an IDPA and USPSA action shooter, a black powder competition winner, a BSA Shooting Sports Merit Badge Counselor, etc., etc.  I gave up all of those things so I can be here being insulted by the likes of YOU, lol!

I don't think he was referring to you and your organization. That is why I specifically pointed out that no one gets a salary with CJNFO. I think he was referring to the big groups like SAF, GOA, and NRA. At least SAF and GOA had zero interest in starting a state organization or working with one of the existing groups in NJ since my multiple emails went unanswered.

 

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[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

At least SAF and GOA had zero interest in starting a state organization or working with one of the existing groups in NJ since my multiple emails went unanswered.

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Nowhere on the websites of SAF or GOA does it refer to "state chapters". I simply don't think that's their business model! (As I mentioned on another thread, SAF and ANJRPC were both on the same NJ lawsuit at one point, so there's obviously been some level of cooperation in the past between those 2 - at least on a legal matter).

I also think these are not Fortune 500 companies, so you need to scale your expectations waaaay down on things like email response time. I guarantee you... between the Parkland fallout, Trump's troubling 2A statements, etc.... these groups are probably getting deluged with emails from folks all over the country... with the exact some idea as yours, "hey maybe THEY can help us!".

Not every non-profit has the staff, funding, talent bandwidth - or even the desire - to have a nation-wide network of chapters. My pragmatic suggestion is to work with what you've got. In NJ, I think we're actually pretty lucky to have a number of motivated groups - all with different strengths - and many of them seem quite willing to cooperate with each other. That's a good thing.... why not build on that? 

[Zeke 5,504]

Too many Chief’s, not enough Indians.

ya te hey, te tonka, how. 

[capt14k 2,052]

Nowhere on the websites of SAF or GOA does it refer to "state chapters". I simply don't think that's their business model! (As I mentioned on another thread, SAF and ANJRPC were both on the same NJ lawsuit at one point, so there's obviously been some level of cooperation in the past between those 2 - at least on a legal matter).
I also think these are not Fortune 500 companies, so you need to scale your expectations waaaay down on things like email response time. I guarantee you... between the Parkland fallout, Trump's troubling 2A statements, etc.... these groups are probably getting deluged with emails from folks all over the country... with the exact some idea as yours, "hey maybe THEY can help us!".
Not every non-profit has the staff, funding, talent bandwidth - or even the desire - to have a nation-wide network of chapters. My pragmatic suggestion is to work with what you've got. In NJ, I think we're actually pretty lucky to have a number of motivated groups - all with different strengths - and many of them seem quite willing to cooperate with each other. That's a good thing.... why not build on that? 

None of them have what is really needed for change and that is money. Politicians can be bought, protestors can be hired, but none of it happens without real money.

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[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

10 minutes ago, capt14k said:

None of them have what is really needed for change and that is money. Politicians can be bought, protestors can be hired, but none of it happens without real money.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

I hear what you're saying, but even the NRA - which has had a pretty powerful presence in DC - was NEVER a big giver of donations. The power they wield is at the polls. We're certainly at a disadvantage in that regard in NJ --- nonetheless, a very strong turnout AGAINST anti-2A candidates would be a shot over the bow. And it might at least avoid the complete anti-2A Dem stranglehold that we're seeing right now. 

More money would be helpful, of course. Pick an org. See if you can get some donors. You don't know until you try.

[Zeke 5,504]

I’ve never heard of a fundraiser based on bashing the funded..

[capt14k 2,052]

I hear what you're saying, but even the NRA - which has had a pretty powerful presence in DC - was NEVER a big giver of donations. The power they wield is at the polls. We're certainly at a disadvantage in that regard in NJ --- nonetheless, a very strong turnout AGAINST anti-2A candidates would be a shot over the bow. And it might at least avoid the complete anti-2A Dem stranglehold that we're seeing right now.  More money would be helpful, of course. Pick an org. See if you can get some donors. You don't know until you try.

 

 

I don't think that info is correct. Did you look at NRA political donations or NRA-ILA donations or both?

 

 

The NRA spent $54.4M on political donations through it's PACs and NRA-ILA in 2016. Maybe the main NRA organization only spent $700k but it is not true that they don't spend a ton on politicians.

 

 

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/11/audit-shows-nra-spending-surged-100-million-amidst-pro-trump-push-in-2016/

 

 

I offered to go after large donors with local orgs as well. Waiting to hear back on that too.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

14 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I don't think that info is correct. Did you look at NRA political donations or NRA-ILA donations or both?

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No, it's true. NRA contributions are dwarfed by other special interest groups... absolutely dwarfed! It's a common myth that the NRA is this big fat contributor. They're not. Here's a list of biggest spenders in DC in 2017. As you can see, NRA didn't even make the cut. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s&showYear=2017 (btw you can search NRA on that same site to see what they (NRA+NRA-ILA combined) pay in lobbying each year - it's peanuts by comparison). 

Here's an article about NRA donations - from the very left-leaning VOX. Nonetheless, the numbers are open source - and their analysis is pretty much on the mark: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/5/16430684/nra-congress-money-no

Typically, any list you pull up of top DC lobbying groups - the NRA typically doesn't even appear in the Top 50. But, what the NRA DOES have is a passionate base willing to be "single-issue voters" if push comes to shove. THAT'S where the NRA's power is. THAT's why politicians are afraid of them... they're afraid of getting voted out of their cushy jobs! The NRA influences not only their own 5M members but other gun owners as well with their very effective Grade A through F "rating system" on 2A issues. It motivates gun-owning voters... and that can win or lose elections.

[capt14k 2,052]

No, it's true. NRA contributions are dwarfed by other special interest groups... absolutely dwarfed! It's a common myth that the NRA is this big fat contributor. They're not. Here's a list of biggest spenders in DC in 2017. As you can see, NRA didn't even make the cut. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s&showYear=2017 (btw you can search NRA on that same site to see what they (NRA+NRA-ILA combined) pay in lobbying each year - it's peanuts by comparison).  Here's an article about NRA donations - from the very left-leaning VOX. Nonetheless, the numbers are open source - and their analysis is pretty much on the mark: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/5/16430684/nra-congress-money-no Typically, any list you pull up of top DC lobbying groups - the NRA typically doesn't even appear in the Top 50. But, what the NRA DOES have is a passionate base willing to be "single-issue voters" if push comes to shove. THAT'S where the NRA's power is. THAT's why politicians are afraid of them... they're afraid of getting voted out of their cushy jobs! The NRA influences not only their own 5M members but other gun owners as well with their very effective Grade A through F "rating system" on 2A issues. It motivates gun-owning voters... and that can win or lose elections. 

 

 

 We linked the same site. Yet the link I posted would put the NRA in 2016 above all but the Chamber of Commerce in 2017. I think what we need to look at is what they all contributed in 2016.  

 

 

Edit When you change to 2016 Chamber of Commerce is $104M, National Association of Realtors $84M, then it drops way off to $25M. However NRA isn't even on the list, but if you read through my link the same website States the NRA spent $54.4M on elections in 2016. This is because their money is broken up between NRA, NRA-ILA, and PAC contributions. So it is really a misnomer that the NRA doesn't spend a lot lobbying.

 

 

Anyone who thinks politicians and their votes are not bought is kidding themselves. All politicians can be bought, and with it their vote and support.

 

 

Also look what Bloomberg/Soros money is doing for the other side. Who paid to get the Parkland Kids to DC? Griffiths foundation. How many more do you think were flat out hired to be there? My guess is a lot based on the interviews done by High Impact Flicks and others. The other side is better funded right now and spending money to control the media and the narrative. Do you really think David Hogg had the pull to get advertisers to leave Laura Ingrham? Of course not, but when you can hire paid trolls/shills to email bomb the advertisers and you can threaten to take out ads against them, and they know the money is there to follow through, advertisers will cave rather quickly like they did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

The article you linked was talking about "total spending"... they are trying to conflate the issues. See below: 

The audit filed with the state of North Carolina shows that the NRA’s total expenditures exploded to more than $419 million, up from $312 million the prior year.

The jump is even more stark when compared to its spending during the previous two presidential elections in 2012 and 2008, when their outlays topped out at $261 million and $204 million, respectively, according to similar audits. These spending totals include all of the NRA’s operations in 2016, from law enforcement programs and hunter services to education and training.

The main driver of the growth in spending, however, came from two program areas: legislative programs and public affairs, which together accounted for about $75 million in the overall growth. The two program areas are not defined in the financial audit, nor do they have a standard definition in accounting practices, but they likely include the NRA’s historic political spending in the 2016 elections.

So, those expenditures included EVERYTHING they do... including their commercials, YouTube programming, etc. The chart I pointed to was specifically their LOBBYING expenditures, and by that standard, they are still dwarfed by many other lobbying interests in DC - big pharma, defense, AARP, etc. The NRA does not "own" politicians. That's a fallacy. But, they can bring out enough angry gun-owning voters to destroy politicians. That's their strength.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

24 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 Anyone who thinks politicians and their votes are not bought is kidding themselves. All politicians can be bought, and with it their vote and support.

I don't disagree with that. I just believe they can be purchased with votes as well as money. 

[capt14k 2,052]

The article you linked was talking about "total spending"... they are trying to conflate the issues. See below:  The audit filed with the state of North Carolina shows that the NRA’s total expenditures exploded to more than $419 million, up from $312 million the prior year.

The jump is even more stark when compared to its spending during the previous two presidential elections in 2012 and 2008, when their outlays topped out at $261 million and $204 million, respectively, according to similar audits. These spending totals include all of the NRA’s operations in 2016, from law enforcement programs and hunter services to education and training.

The main driver of the growth in spending, however, came from two program areas: legislative programs and public affairs, which together accounted for about $75 million in the overall growth. The two program areas are not defined in the financial audit, nor do they have a standard definition in accounting practices, but they likely include the NRA’s historic political spending in the 2016 elections.

So, those expenditures included EVERYTHING they do... including their commercials, YouTube programming, etc. The chart I pointed to was specifically their LOBBYING expenditures, and by that standard, they are still dwarfed by many other lobbying interests in DC - big pharma, defense, AARP, etc. The NRA does not "own" politicians. That's a fallacy. But, they can bring out enough angry gun-owning voters to destroy politicians. That's their strength.

 

 

Keep reading further.

 

 

Reports filed with the Federal Election Commission show that the PAC and nonprofit arms of the NRA spent a combined $54.4 million in the 2016 elections. Most of that spending, $35.2 million, was channeled through the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), the powerful lobbying arm of the NRA.

 

 

All Politicians are owned. Some are owned by more than one group.

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

19 hours ago, capt14k said:

I don't think he was referring to you and your organization. That is why I specifically pointed out that no one gets a salary with CJNFO. I think he was referring to the big groups like SAF, GOA, and NRA. At least SAF and GOA had zero interest in starting a state organization or working with one of the existing groups in NJ since my multiple emails went unanswered.

 

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Capt14k I appreciate your kindness but remember he's a big boy & you don't have to "take rounds" for him  

The lack of an apology or PM w/ same speaks volumes.  People here don't get charged by the character.  He's free to write as much or as little as he wishes; to be as short or verbose as the situation deems necessary.  As for me, I'm just growing tired of having to respond to general attacks & being lumped-in by dipshits' generalities.  Nobody that I deal with wants to see a prolonged battle for the Second Amendment here in NJ so that they can profit from it.  To anyone that thinks like that, F THEM, cause they're a cancer that this forum and especially those that call themselves patriots, DON'T NEED!

For the record, I don't draw a salary and neither do any of us at the Coalition!  It's a RULE in our corporate Bylaws.  I donated way over $300 in reimbursable expenses just last year and became a Life Member doing so using just those "in-kind contributions".  I've been at this several years, and have donated a huge portion of my reimbursable expenses every month.  That's in addition to paying full price for any & every hunt or outing I run.  Every Hog Hunt, Pheasant Hunt, Sporting Clays Tournament I've participated in for CNJFO!  That's THOUSANDS of dollars!  PLUS $500 or MORE in addition to that on all the apparel to build brand recognition, as I pay FULL RETAIL for everything I wear (just in-case some Schmuck goes down THAT road, lol)!

Nobody has to kiss my ass & I'm not a Snowflake.  But if someone could kindly take the knife outta my back around here, that be great....

[Ray Ray 3,566]

25 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

But if someone could kindly take the knife outta my back around here, that be great....

What you have failed to realize, Dave, is that there are many others IN OUR COMMUNITY that will gladly take their own knives and replace the one that your "friend" pulls out with their own.

We are at a cross roads here, what we need are more asses in the seats and checks mailed out.  Plain and simple.  

We need pamphlets brought to ALL FFLs, business cards handed out, and just word of mouth.  

Arguing over "what have you done for me lately" isn't getting us anywhere.  

[Smokin .50 1,907]

23 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

What you have failed to realize, Dave, is that there are many others IN OUR COMMUNITY that will gladly take their own knives and replace the one that your "friend" pulls out with their own.

We are at a cross roads here, what we need are more asses in the seats and checks mailed out.  Plain and simple.  

We need pamphlets brought to ALL FFLs, business cards handed out, and just word of mouth.  

Arguing over "what have you done for me lately" isn't getting us anywhere.  

Some in our community are egomaniacs, trolls, and grifters that just happen to share our hobby.  They "put on a face of caring" when it suits them.  They're not in the trenches with us.  I know who they ARE for the most part & I won't name NAMES for now!

The crossroads they are a comin', that's for sure!  It amazes me how little the average gun owner knows about transportation & possession of firearms in NJ.  That you don't need a NJFPID card to transport.  That out-of-state residents attend matches all of NJ every weekend w/o a NJFPID card!  The list goes on & on!  As far as more asses, well, the Coalition is growing every day.  I'm only sorry to say that it took Murphy winning to make it that way...

We have brochures in dozens of gun shops across NJ.  Yes it should be hundreds, and YES we could use some help making it so.  Boots on the ground to deliver the brochures & holders to FFL's that are actually pro-2A is what's needed.  You'd be amazed at which joints don't want them (Range 14 just for an example)!  "Too political", "not good for bidness" & other BS stories!  But yet they make their money ON OUR MUTUAL BACKS!

Arguing over "what have you done for me lately" is all SOME here wish to do.  It's not for me, as I'd rather DO GUN SH!T instead of point fingers.  It keeps me humble (when that knife is removed)

There's more to life in "the Gun World" besides NJGF (perish the thought)!  Tonight, for instance, is Tony Simon's the 2nd is for Everyone: Diversity Shoot at Gun For Hire's Woodland Park Range at 6pm.  $15 gets you shooting a vast assortment of guns w/ ammo supplied PLUS you get fed PIZZA!  Several Coalition members, including NJGF Moderator Nick Wong, are volunteer instructors and bring their own toyz for everyone to play with.  Camaraderie, eats, lead pumping, latest news from Anthony and the NRA-ILA (YES, Christian isn't a Unicorn) all for $15 bucks!  Registration is limited to 40 trigger-pullers and the event is already SOLD-OUT!  I'll be the "Walmart Greeter" at the front door tonight and maybe Tony will assign me to cover a Port & instruct?  I go where I'm needed & do what I'm asked to do.  

Anyone here wanna meet me at GFH to pick-up brochures & brochure holders to deliver to their FFL's that we didn't see yet?  A little HELP goes a LONG way  

Rosey

[Ray Ray 3,566]

@Smokin .50, there is a steel knockdown match at Old Bridge on the 14th.  Dare I say it, should it be canceled?  

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

36 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Anyone here wanna meet me at GFH to pick-up brochures & brochure holders to deliver to their FFL's that we didn't see yet?  A little HELP goes a LONG way  

Rosey

 @Smokin .50... I can't meet you at GFH tonight due to a prior obligation.

And frankly, it's sometimes difficult for me to commit to scheduled events due to personal obligations. However, I'm sure I could chip away at contacting some FFLs for you... that is, assuming I can do it on my own schedule? and in my own region? PM me to discuss. If I can be of some use, I'm happy to help. 

BTW, for what it's worth, the MAIN reason why I joined CNJFO recently is this: I see your members consistently staffing not just your own CNJFO events, but also helping out at events arranged by OTHER 2A groups (ANJRPC, Tony Simon's Diversity Shoot, etc). That's what this state's 2A groups need to be doing right now IMO... so I do respect that. 

[capt14k 2,052]

 [mention=3464]Smokin .50[/mention]... I can't meet you at GFH tonight due to a prior obligation.
And frankly, it's sometimes difficult for me to commit to scheduled events due to personal obligations. However, I'm sure I could chip away at contacting some FFLs for you... that is, assuming I can do it on my own schedule? and in my own region? PM me to discuss. If I can be of some use, I'm happy to help. 
BTW, for what it's worth, the MAIN reason why I joined CNJFO recently is this: I see your members consistently staffing not just your own CNJFO events, but also helping out at events arranged by OTHER 2A groups (ANJRPC, Tony Simon's Diversity Shoot, etc). That's what this state's 2A groups need to be doing right now IMO... so I do respect that. 

I'm out in the Hamilton/Bordentown area at least twice a week and I have at least an hour to kill each time. I can bring some brochures out there to say Cheyenne and whoever else.


I assume the lack of reply is agreement to the NRA does spend a lot of money after all on political campaigns? Let's do the same on the state level. My offer stands to contact people with deep pockets.

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[Smokin .50 1,907]

37 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

@Smokin .50, there is a steel knockdown match at Old Bridge on the 14th.  Dare I say it, should it be canceled?  

Yes, it's scheduled for the 14th, the morning after I run the Police Pistol Competition, as its' Match Director, on Friday the 13th at the indoor range.  (For those that don't know, PPC league isn't just for cops AND all league events are open to the public)

[Smokin .50 1,907]

24 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

 @Smokin .50... I can't meet you at GFH tonight due to a prior obligation.

And frankly, it's sometimes difficult for me to commit to scheduled events due to personal obligations. However, I'm sure I could chip away at contacting some FFLs for you... that is, assuming I can do it on my own schedule? and in my own region? PM me to discuss. If I can be of some use, I'm happy to help. 

BTW, for what it's worth, the MAIN reason why I joined CNJFO recently is this: I see your members consistently staffing not just your own CNJFO events, but also helping out at events arranged by OTHER 2A groups (ANJRPC, Tony Simon's Diversity Shoot, etc). That's what this state's 2A groups need to be doing right now IMO... so I do respect that. 

Appreciate the help!  Volunteers volunteer best when it's easy for them to do so.  Making your own schedule for this activity is where it's at!  I've already been to TTC in Flemington LAST YEAR, so when ya get a chance, please swing-by & ask for a brochure & see if they can find the brochure holder.  Last time I was there I couldn't find our holder ANYWHERE.

We always will help others when we can swing it.  Being responsive, being nice to others always puts us in a good light.  It's hard to sh!t-talk about someone or some group when they go out of their way to help others.   

In anticipation of getting more visits accomplished (as soon as it stops SNOWING), I'll have Jack Pyle order us another case of brochure holders  .  Thanks again for being YOU!

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

3 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I'm out in the Hamilton/Bordentown area at least twice a week and I have at least an hour to kill each time. I can bring some brochures out there to say Cheyenne and whoever else. Good for you! CNJFO should probably have a couple of point person(s) in each county - I'm guessing they have far less than that. This sounds like an easy task. We should be able to get several people to step up. 

I assume the lack of reply is agreement to the NRA does spend a lot of money after all on political campaigns? Let's do the same on the state level. My offer stands to contact people with deep pockets. Was that directed at me? If so, my lack of reply is because I grew weary of arguing, I'm not argumentative by nature (though my ex- might disagree, LOL). I still believe the NRA is not a "big gorilla" in the DC lobbying game. That article outlined their PAC contributions... but you don't think Big Pharma, Big Insurance, the Defense Industry aren't pouring way more than the NRA into their own chosen PACs? I certainly think so!! Obviously, there's money involved with the NRA, yes... (and the more money that's harnessed for 2A the better - I'm all for it - money influences, I'm not naïve).. I just think that the anti-2A side saying all these republicans have been "bought" by the NRA is grossly exaggerated - it just doesn't hold water IN COMPARISON TO the money being shoved at them by far wealthier groups./special interests. The bigger threat is the votes of the passionate base. We can agree to disagree, how's that?  I don't want to squabble.

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[Smokin .50 1,907]

14 minutes ago, capt14k said:

I'm out in the Hamilton/Bordentown area at least twice a week and I have at least an hour to kill each time. I can bring some brochures out there to say Cheyenne and whoever else.


I assume the lack of reply is agreement to the NRA does spend a lot of money after all on political campaigns? Let's do the same on the state level. My offer stands to contact people with deep pockets.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

We have Cheyenne covered by Eric Saperstein, our Youth Shooting Liaison & Exec. Bo. member that works there behind the counter.  I appreciate the offer to help & will consult Eric with what else is in that general area, since I don't know.  When Sportsmen's Center went-out, we may have lost two holders that I placed there?  One in the vestibule & another by the register at the gun counter.  If you could check THERE to see if they need re-stocked and/or pulled based upon your recommendation, that be great.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

5 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

Yes, it's scheduled for the 14th, the morning after I run the Police Pistol Competition, as its' Match Director, on Friday the 13th at the indoor range.  (For those that don't know, PPC league isn't just for cops AND all league events are open to the public)

You missed my point.  There is an Old Bridge match on the same day as the call to arms in Trenton.  

[capt14k 2,052]

We have Cheyenne covered by Eric Saperstein, our Youth Shooting Liaison & Exec. Bo. member that works there behind the counter.  I appreciate the offer to help & will consult Eric with what else is in that general area, since I don't know.  When Sportsmen's Center went-out, we may have lost two holders that I placed there?  One in the vestibule & another by the register at the gun counter.  If you could check THERE to see if they need re-stocked and/or pulled based upon your recommendation, that be great.

Sportsman was closed. Well what's left of it. Now it is a flea market with 30 some vendors and the store is just a small section to the right. I will get there before 6pm next week.

I will also scope out what else is in this area. Right now I am just sitting watching practice so it will give me something to do.

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[capt14k 2,052]

 

I will say this Big Pharma owns a lot of them as does Insurance Industry, Tort Attorneys, and many other groups including the NRA. Money talks and politicians votes can be bought. IMO that is our only chance in NJ other than the courts.

 

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[Smokin .50 1,907]

On 4/5/2018 at 6:02 PM, Ray Ray said:

You missed my point.  There is an Old Bridge match on the same day as the call to arms in Trenton.  

Your point isn't missed.  I'm quite sure every active range/club has a match this Saturday.  A peek online would confirm this.  Not everybody is going to show-up in Trenton for a Rally, and Patriots need to realize THAT, wrap their heads around it and MOVE-ON and DO PATRIOT SHIT!  Is every commercial range going to CLOSE-DOWN for the day & post a sign at their front door sayin' "SEE YOU AT THE RALLY"?  There's time to be all Gung-Ho.  Murphy's reign is only 3 months old & we got 3 YEARS & 3 months left to go.  Best not to burn bridges & point fingers.  And calling-out one league from ONE club, well, that's really not a good precedent... 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Well said David.  Thanks