Chatham cop leaves loaded .45 on sidewalk

[Guest]

shows a dereliction of duty

And now we are back to square one, handling the issue in a internal affairs investigation. Can you point to this offense in the state law? No, because it isn't there. It is the charge used when one is charged by the department.

 

I find it odd that so many find it outrageous that this happened, which it is, yet had NJ groups opposed legislation that would have made it a criminal offense, yet that was even deleted.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/Bills ... 934_R1.PDF

 

So is a lost firearm a serious issue or not? Is it serious when it only happens to someone else? A civilian would be responsible for at best a five hundred dollar fine. This guys fine could amount to several thousand.

 

Equal treatment?

 

 

Please man, Dont give me that line, $500 at best? Really? Do you think I would get approved for that next pistol permit as well? Dont you think I would never touch a gun again in this state if I did that?

You dont know the law, if I left a loaded gun on a sidewalk in CHATHAM nonetheless I would be on the hook for more than $500....be real. Dont tell me about equal treatment because equal treatment would have afforded me the ability to lose a gun on the street in the first place.

Besides, everyone knows that every Marine is a rifleman, so I should be allowed to carry so I can be RESPONSIBLE WITH MY GUN.

Its ok, I understand your defense of this cop. One time a C.O. asked me and some others on my squad about some items that were taken off of base. We knew the guy who did it, but nobody said anything....so I get it...but this smacks in the face of reality here in NJ.

[GoNRA 12]

shows a dereliction of duty

And now we are back to square one, handling the issue in a internal affairs investigation. Can you point to this offense in the state law? No, because it isn't there. It is the charge used when one is charged by the department.

 

I find it odd that so many find it outrageous that this happened, which it is, yet had NJ groups opposed legislation that would have made it a criminal offense, yet that was even deleted.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/Bills ... 934_R1.PDF

 

So is a lost firearm a serious issue or not? Is it serious when it only happens to someone else? A civilian would be responsible for at best a five hundred dollar fine. This guys fine could amount to several thousand.

 

Equal treatment?

 

Police dont get treated equally in this state.. The reason being, they are held to a higher standard than a civilian, civilians expect high standards of police in this state. You have the same situation in Texas, it probably wouldn't even make the newspaper.

[rscalzo 3]

they are held to a higher standard than a civilian, civilians expect high standards of police in this state.

 

That's the way I looked at it for thirty plus years. Nothing less should be expected. That is one of the reasons that public safety (I'm adding fire fighters and EMS into the mix) are able to be held accountable for areas that the ordinary citizen is not. You know if coming into the job and if not acceptable, you shouldn't be in that position.

 

What does annoy many in the field is a rush to judgment with no facts to base a decision on beyond the few lines available in a newspaper article. The same newspapers often ridiculed for a lack of details and accuracy in reporting yet when it suits, the lack of those very details or inaccuracies aren't so important any longer.

[Guest]

THis seems pretty clear cut to me. A cop left a loaded .45 on the sidewalk in Chatham...what extenuating circumstances would have allowed that to be OK? how much fact do I need to know that leaving a loaded .45 on the sidewalk is OK. I am not buying it.

[rscalzo 3]

allowed that to be OK

 

Have you read all the prior post? Can you point to one that said "it was OK". You are reading something into the topic that isn't there.

[KpdPipes 388]

allowed that to be OK

 

Have you read all the prior post? Can you point to one that said "it was OK". You are reading something into the topic that isn't there.

 

Rich, think ARCOM GD. Pointless to argue with this chimp.

[Guest]

allowed that to be OK

 

Have you read all the prior post? Can you point to one that said "it was OK". You are reading something into the topic that isn't there.

 

Rich, think ARCOM GD. Pointless to argue with this chimp.

 

 

Hey Pipes, When I come and contribute to a community forum, and you want to call me a chimp because I disagree, that makes you a punk.

coming on here and calling someone you DONT KNOW a chimp...whos the punk? Communists dont like arguments, and TFB if you disagree with me....get over it. Since you are a cop, I understand your zeal to help your friend by telling him there is no point in arguing with me because I disagree that you should leave guns laying around and have no real issues because we all know cops are protected in that way, you cant abuse my rights and say "hey, he had PTSD, he saw a guy get blown up, he got drunk"... realize that you all cant stand behind each other while you tear down liberty that I fought for...I dont think any of you ROBOTS have served any time in a rain soaked hell hole thinking about liberty and what that really means....but of course my guns stay safe, and never get left on the street...so I am a chimp, but when it hits the fan, it falls into 2 camps...

 

Maks, I have to apologize for the tone, but the commies are out, and their handlers like calling people THEY DONT KNOW names. So let me apologize ahead of time for the BAFOONS who dont like debate....

[Springfield1911 22]

KpdPipes= total tool

RScalzo= angry old man

 

These 2 probably wouldnt last a second in the Marines.

 

+1 for Megaman.

[tbtrout 141]

Guys, let's keep it friendly. No insults or names are needed or called for.

[bbk 188]

I can see where rscalzo and KDP might be coming from, in regards to not knowing the details of the situation-- and making face judgment from those.

 

However, from what is available, I have to respectfully disagree with the defense of the individual. Regardless of what an individual is going through, people MUST be responsible. The individual, details aside, was not responsible... and maybe not accountable.

 

Take for example the recent story of the US Army CPT who was decorated with the Silver Star for combat, but handed reprimand for F'ing up his responsibilities (that lead to the ----storm to began with). The individual delivered and obviously exceeded expectations in duty-- hence the Silver Star. However, what takes precedence is the primary objective-- and, in the case of the military, it is to complete the mission while getting everyone home. [Reference]

 

I fully agree with the actions that are being taken in this case of the USA CPT by the DOD. I also agree that the disciplinary measures being taken by the PD and the criticism by the general public (because that is who is being served) of the situation are both warranted. I do not think that someone is held to a higher standard simply because they are in a position of authority/public trust. I hold these people to a higher standard because of the duty they have swore to uphold.

 

In both cases, the CPT (and other senior officers) will have the opportunity to appeal the Field Grade Article 15 (I'm assuming; plus other articles I could imagine). And the issue with this local LEO will also be handled behind doors, with opportunity for the officer to defend himself to his superiors (and not to us, which I agree with). However, I still do believe that it is fair to criticize the judgment of the LEO, and any others who fail their duties.

[KpdPipes 388]

Thing is..I HAVENT Defended him. As for Mega..Sorry I calls it likeI sees it..you troll into every Police thread with the same tired old crap.. You dont like Cops. Good for you you're entiltled to that opinion....You arent going to change that, and Rich is wasing his time trying to reason with you..pure and simple.

[ChrisJM981 924]

I'm calling it how I see it. Cops get away with a lot of crap. DUI, sleeping on duty, and of course disorderly conduct. These are just things I've seen first hand. It's not being held to a higher standard. As I see it they are being held to a different standard. Don't tell me I have to go the speed limit while you do 50 in a 30 wiith all lights off at 1am on a dark road in a patrol car. I know if I did that I'd be doing a field sobriety test. They just flash a badge and go on their merry way.

 

Maybe it's just the police in my area, but it rubs many people the wrong way. I understand not wanting to judge based on a newspaper article written to sell papers, but It's tough to be objective when this appeared to be a cover up.

[rscalzo 3]

That's right. they get away with everything.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010 ... years.html

 

You seem to have a lot of issues. Care to back it up with facts? Or are we just repeating the standard line from the internet your "read somewhere".

 

Don't tell me I have to go the speed limit while you do 50 in a 30 with all lights off at 1am on a dark road in a patrol car. I know if I did that I'd be doing a field sobriety test

 

Are you advocating Probable Cause based solely on speed? Wow, that some case law I'd love to see.

 

As far as the operation, you might want to review the NJ AG's guidelines on operation of a marked unit operation. You obviously don't know the finer points. As I'm guessing you don't have a link to the data streams going to and from the MDT's and radio transmissions, you have no idea what is going on. Let me guess. another uninformed assumption. Assumptions based on zero information...usually are far from accurate.

 

Cops get away with a lot of crap. DUI

Care to elaborate? Were they charged and found not guilty? First hand knowledge? Or better yet, are you saying EVERYONE ever stopped for a 4-50 was charged? Or are we passing on the standard internet comments.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I don't get it... cops are regular people prone to mistakes and being "human". I see no use in trying to de-humanize them into some kind of enemy. Sure, they can be annoying when they pull you over for going 15 over, or for being representatives of policies we don't like (I.E. delays in firearms permits, etc.), but most do a good job keeping the peace and upholding the law. Don't let a few bad apples ruin the whole thing, because like KDP and rcalzo say: "when you need them, you don't hesitate to call them".

 

Now, back to the OP, I don't think it was directly addressed... but if a civilian left their firearm in a similar manner, would the punishment be far more severe? I feel that for a police officer, there may be greater leniency because they have CCW rights, and are generally "allowed" to carry firearms. For a civilian, a halfway aggressive DA can make their life a living hell... lord help them if the thing was loaded with HPs... they'll probably treat them worse than a terrorist with an A-Bomb.

[rscalzo 3]

Hey Pipes, When I come and contribute to a community forum, and you want to call me a chimp

 

Even I have to say that the name calling it going a bit beyond. But the entire topic has stayed to the point where former service in the Marines has some bearing on the original rush to judgment without a single fact.

 

Now some state that they would have been treated differently. I'd like to see a example of a lost firearm being treated criminally outside of the laws regarding access to children. I don't remember any. In fact just today we had a less then responsible individual "Clean" his 45ACP and put a round through the wall into the next apartment just missing the resident. It's being treated as an accident with no charges. Unfair treatment?

[KpdPipes 388]

I don't get it... cops are regular people prone to mistakes and being "human". I see no use in trying to de-humanize them into some kind of enemy. Sure, they can be annoying when they pull you over for going 15 over, or for being representatives of policies we don't like (I.E. delays in firearms permits, etc.), but most do a good job keeping the peace and upholding the law. Don't let a few bad apples ruin the whole thing, because like KDP and rcalzo say: "when you need them, you don't hesitate to call them".

 

Now, back to the OP, I don't think it was directly addressed... but if a civilian left their firearm in a similar manner, would the punishment be far more severe? I feel that for a police officer, there may be greater leniency because they have CCW rights, and are generally "allowed" to carry firearms. For a civilian, a halfway aggressive DA can make their life a living hell... lord help them if the thing was loaded with HPs... they'll probably treat them worse than a terrorist with an A-Bomb.

 

Charge-wise, it'd probably be about the same. "Improper Disposition of a Firearm" IIRC is the catch-all. and i have seen cops get charged with this in similar cases. He's a Dumbass, i dont know of ANY department that doesnt have a prohibition against being armed if you're drinking, and something liek this, even if it doesnt equal a criminal charge will probably net a pretty hefty Administrative Disciplinary Action, depending on his Disciplinary history, probably about a 15 day suspension., up to 30.. and those are work days not calendar days. If he's 5/2, that's 3 weeks as a minimum. If they work a Pittman, or similar 12 hour shift, it could work out to an entire month Suspended. ETA: This is a WAG on my part, i dont know enough about MPD and their schedule to do more than guess.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I don't get it... cops are regular people prone to mistakes and being "human". I see no use in trying to de-humanize them into some kind of enemy. Sure, they can be annoying when they pull you over for going 15 over, or for being representatives of policies we don't like (I.E. delays in firearms permits, etc.), but most do a good job keeping the peace and upholding the law. Don't let a few bad apples ruin the whole thing, because like KDP and rcalzo say: "when you need them, you don't hesitate to call them".

 

Now, back to the OP, I don't think it was directly addressed... but if a civilian left their firearm in a similar manner, would the punishment be far more severe? I feel that for a police officer, there may be greater leniency because they have CCW rights, and are generally "allowed" to carry firearms. For a civilian, a halfway aggressive DA can make their life a living hell... lord help them if the thing was loaded with HPs... they'll probably treat them worse than a terrorist with an A-Bomb.

 

Charge-wise, it'd probably be about the same. "Improper Disposition of a Firearm" IIRC is the catch-all. and i have seen cops get charged with this in similar cases. He's a Dumbass, i dont know of ANY department that doesnt have a prohibition against being armed if you're drinking, and something liek this, even if it doesnt equal a criminal charge will probably net a pretty hefty Administrative Disciplinary Action, depending on his Disciplinary history, probably about a 15 day suspension., up to 30.. and those are work days not calendar days. If he's 5/2, that's 3 weeks as a minimum. If they work a Pittman, or similar 12 hour shift, it could work out to an entire month Suspended. ETA: This is a WAG on my part, i dont know enough about MPD and their schedule to do more than guess.

 

Ouch!

[rscalzo 3]

i don't know of ANY department that doesn't have a prohibition against being armed if you're drinking,

 

Most strongly discourage it. But I'm not aware of any that have a prohibition. It is thought that common sense will prevail. Othe states have fought for the right to carry into and drink alcoholic beverages while carrying a firearm. Personal responsibility is the issue. One beer with dinner? Most would agree it's not out of line. Some will limit to none. I don't drink when I'm in possession of a handgun, nor do i drink when on the bike or in the boat. Passengers are free to have what they will. I can live without it. Again, a personal responsibility. Clearly, it was not followed in this case.

 

A few years back one of the reasons that the largest NH Gun Ownens organization started falling apart was due to this issue. At a dinner (Friends of the NRA) which is a large affair had many carrying handguns openly while strongly under the influence. Comments were made that this gives a bad impression to many that attend who are not strongly into the sport.

[KpdPipes 388]

i don't know of ANY department that doesn't have a prohibition against being armed if you're drinking,

 

Most strongly discourage it. But I'm not aware of any that have a prohibition. It is thought that common sense will prevail. Othe states have fought for the right to carry into and drink alcoholic beverages while carrying a firearm. Personal responsibility is the issue. One beer with dinner? Most would agree it's not out of line. Some will limit to none. I don't drink when I'm in possession of a handgun, nor do i drink when on the bike or in the boat. Passengers are free to have what they will. I can live without it. Again, a personal responsibility. Clearly, it was not followed in this case.

 

A few years back one of the reasons that the largest NH Gun Ownens organization started falling apart was due to this issue. At a dinner (Friends of the NRA) which is a large affair had many carrying handguns openly while strongly under the influence. Comments were made that this gives a bad impression to many that attend who are not strongly into the sport.

 

I know mine is a flat-out prohibition, as are the departments immediately surrounding us. IIRC Newark is also Prohibited...which sparked off all kinds of issues since they are also REQUIRED to be armed, and have their radio in their possession if they are in the City off-duty. Subject to inspection by any supervisor, and Disciplinary action of they are not so equipped. McCarthy MAY have relaxed the Firearm and Radio rule, but AFAIK the abolsulte prohibition to be armed and drinking is still in place.

[rscalzo 3]

probably about a 15 day suspension., up to 30

 

You're a bit easy on this. As the AG would uphold any disciplinary action if unreasonable, 15 to 30 isn't close to what I recommend.

 

But without having a past history, no idea what would be acceptable.I always saw a difference between an honest mistake and shear stupidity. The younger ones usually have to learn the hard way that anything doesn't go. If this isn't the first and short of some very extenuating circumstances, he lose a heck of a lot more than 30.

 

the absolute prohibition to be armed and drinking is still in place.

I never pushed for that as I treated my people like adults until they gave me a reason not to do so. then that individual would suffer the wrath and not everyone else who did accept the responsibility to act like a responsible adult. A few never got the hint and were terminated and I wasn't sad to see them go.

[Guest]

Thing is..I HAVENT Defended him. As for Mega..Sorry I calls it likeI sees it..you troll into every Police thread with the same tired old crap.. You dont like Cops. Good for you you're entiltled to that opinion....You arent going to change that, and Rich is wasing his time trying to reason with you..pure and simple.

 

 

Sorry Pipes, I troll and cast my opinion...thank you for pointing it out. You must have your masters degree in the obvious.

[rscalzo 3]

My question. Did you ever serve in our armed forces? If so, where?

 

That makes absolutely no sense as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. As for the answer anyway, no. Now you can tell me what the point of military service would be to the issue at hand? None as far as I can see. However I'm probably familiar more than most with the operations as two under my command were Marine Firearms Instructors. My dealings with those people and the command in their unit got me several invitations to their training sessions in Dix. But as this has nothing to do with the question of individual responsibility, I move on.

[Malsua 1,422]

My question. Did you ever serve in our armed forces? If so, where?

 

That makes absolutely no sense as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. As for the answer anyway, no. Now you can tell me what the point of military service would be to the issue at hand? None as far as I can see. However I'm probably familiar more than most with the operations as two under my command were Marine Firearms Instructors. My dealings with those people and the command in their unit got me several invitations to their training sessions in Dix. But as this has nothing to do with the question of individual responsibility, I move on.

 

reading the entire thread, you've been pwned. You love to talk about New Hampshire but the fact remains that in NJ, if a non leo leaves a firearm laying about he's done. Two standards, LEO and non LEO.

[rscalzo 3]

you've been pwned

??? Typo makes it somewhat difficult.

 

As for the comment concerning leaving a firearm lying around by a civilian, that is accurate as by my experience the owner who left four in the open back of his vehicle only to be stolen was no charged even with the glaring violation of NJ law.

 

I'm guessing you have no experienjce in dealing with the requirements for a IA investigation. As the guidelines are quite clear and the legal issues that must be addressed extensive, no one dealing with a serious issue like this simply walks away. Even if the department tries to sweep it, every case is sent for review up to the Prosecutor office. At that point lawyers review and determine the conduct.

 

So as the case has not been completed, I find it odd that some feel he's getting off easy.

[Malsua 1,422]

you've been pwned

??? Typo makes it somewhat difficult.

 

As for the comment concerning leaving a firearm lying around by a civilian, that is accurate as by my experience the owner who left four in the open back of his vehicle only to be stolen was no charged even with the glaring violation of NJ law.

 

I'm guessing you have no experienjce in dealing with the requirements for a IA investigation. As the guidelines are quite clear and the legal issues that must be addressed extensive, no one dealing with a serious issue like this simply walks away. Even if the department tries to sweep it, every case is sent for review up to the Prosecutor office. At that point lawyers review and determine the conduct.

 

So as the case has not been completed, I find it odd that some feel he's getting off easy.

 

ROFL. Feigning ignorance is funny. So it goes. You are correct in that I have no IA experience. I also have no direct combat experience. My brothers do, my sister does, does that make me unable to comment about it? My sister retired from the Army as a Major, I guess her opinion isn't too valuable. One of my brothers busted his ass to be a pathfinder...he wasn't worried about what firearm he carried during 2003...he was the tip of the spear.

[tbtrout 141]

Guys we are getting way off track here and making it personal and it is not even with the OP.

[rscalzo 3]

Off track, yes.... Did the debate get "heated" at times? Maybe. But if everyone agree with each other nothing would be learned. Debate over a computer terminal is difficult at best. Face to face I have no doubt points would be made on both sides.

 

What I think everyone can agree on is that the individual who was the subject is an embarrassment and should and will be dealt with on some level.

[djg0770 481]

the individual who was the subject is an embarrassment and should and will be dealt with on some level.

 

+1

[ChrisJM981 924]

 

 

Cops get away with a lot of crap. DUI

Care to elaborate? Were they charged and found not guilty? First hand knowledge? Or are we passing on the standard internet comments.

 

Mahwah 2004: I almost got T-boned by the cop with his lights out while making a left at a stop sign. Luckily I caught him out of the corner of my eye or I would have turned and I'd be dead. I'm sure that would have been written up as my fault.

 

Troy Hills area 2006: A car was upside down on Rt 80 east that appeared to have crashed off an overhead roadway. There was construction being done on the westbound side maybe 200 yards away. There was a State Trooper providing "protective flagging", but he missed it. Why? Because his seat was reclined all the way and he was sleeping. I pulled into the shoulder along the cement median and had to inform him of the spectacular NASCAR type crash he just missed. "I'll go check it out." was his response as he slowly put up his seat and went to investigate.

 

Oradell 2007: After returning from playing pool in River Edge I pulled up to a light and smelt something burning. My friend in the car noticed that a piece of electrical equipment (transformer perhaps) on a telephone pole was on fire and lighting up the tree next to it, which was adjacent to a house. Knowing that I had passed a police car a few blocks prior I ripped a U-Turn (yea it was illegal) and went back to inform him. He was parked (with his lights on) in an access driveway with his seat reclined and his mouth wide open (I wish I had my camera with me). My brother had to knock on the glass several times to wake him. He was extremely startled when awoken and said, in a professional William Shatner type voice, "Can I... help you?" 'Sir there's a transformer on fire up the road.' Officer: "Well that's Westwood, but I'll check it out." He was an Emerson cop sleeping in Oradell checking out a fire in Westwood.

 

Disorderly pertains to drunk cops on the train acting like.. well... ***holes is the best description I can think of. Getting drunk and yelling obscenities while their drunk friends climb on top of the luggage rack. This is usually the local municipal police. Mahwah, Morris Plains, and Suffern are the towns I that I can remember them being from. I saw an off-duty Hillsdale cop get drunk and threaten a bartender. A few altercations in bars including off-duty cops.

 

The DUI I can't be specific with. My friend is a cop in that department. He has told me about several instances where they get pulled over while intoxicated and the patrol car escorts them home by following them.

 

I know these people are bad apples and in no way am I saying that all police act in this manner. It just pisses me off to no end when I see it. I know a good number of police and most do not act this way. All the NYPD guys I deal with are great. ...except one from Harriman. I understand the looking out for your own concept. Nobody likes a rat.

 

I'm not trying to point fingers. I break the law too. I like to go fast. My whole point is they do get away with more than the general public.

 

I like the police as they are a deterrent for "the stupids" and help keep people safe(when they're awake).

[Guest]

wow totally lost track of this thread surprised to see so much discussion..

 

carrying a firearm is a HUGE responsibility.. cop.. military.. civilian.. your JOB should have NO bearing on the level of responsibility that is EXPECTED....

 

the repercussions of the WRONG person getting that weapon are HUGE, and while yes it was a mistake, so is not paying attention and causing a motor vehicle accident.. mistakes carry penalties.. and those penalties are (and should be) more severe depending on the "accident"...

 

leaving a loaded firearm on the STREET is INEXCUSABLE imo.. i am a citizen am expected to be in FULL COMPLETE control of my firearms at ALL times.. i am expected to follow stated procedure at all times.. NOT DOING SO will (justly) allow the state to charge me with crimes that MAY cause me to lose my right to own a weapon...

 

this guy is NO different.. to me he has created one of the biggest mistakes you can make.. and to me he has illustrated that he is not trustworthy enough to carry that weapon.. i know TONS of LEOs.. and even though some of them have done some pretty stupid stuff.. i can honestly say that i have never seen anything so stupid occur... i have even been out with some gov type officers before who definitely had a few to drink but never once did anything to indicate they were not in complete control of their firearm.. as stated i see no issue with carrying while having a drink or two.. i can understand why carrying a firearm and drinking might sound terrible to some people but lets face it.. alcohol effects everyone differently and having a couple beers over the course of a couple hours is not exactly going to make most grown men drunk.. the issue comes when you lose control and do RIDICULOUS unimaginable things while drunk, and i would put leaving a loaded gun on the street in that category.. and i hope he is dealt with as fairly as anyone else would.. i really think he should seek new line of work.. one with less responsibility..