How difficult/expensive is it to open a range?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

So... I went to Bullet hole this weekend, and standing in line to shoot for 30 minutes after driving 45 got me to thinking: what are some major obstacles to opening a range in the Morristown area?

 

Granted, the first is zoning issues, and getting permits. The other being money. So...

 

Outdoor Range vs. Indoor Range: pros and cons of both? I feel in a more 'built up' area, an indoor range is preferable as the sound can be muffled or suppressed... however, you can only make a range so long (50 yards seems to be a practical maximum here).

 

Lead remediation: is it easier indoors or outdoors?

 

Ventilation: indoors requires investment in a good vent system to protect the shooters... outdoor ranges are... well outdoors.

 

Gun shop: most ranges come attached to a gun shop where firearms can be sold, or even rented. However, this requires an FFL, which is quite costly. How feasible is it to have a range which only sells ammunition and other shooting supplies? Do you need an FFL to sell ammo and other supplies?

 

Membership vs. Pay-as-you-go: I feel a hybrid of the two works best. From a business model standpoint, the members get perks for investing over the year, and provide a base level or revenue. Pay-go people provide additional revenue with less maintenance per dollar.

 

Cooperation with local PDs: This can be helpful for the town and can help justify the construction of the range. Local PDs can use the range to practice for a discount.

 

RSOs: are they needed all the time? Or only when Pay-gos are shooting. I understand in Members' only ranges, they don't require a full-time RSO on staff.

 

And lastly: Return on Investment... Can a shooting range provide good money?

[Maksim 1,504]

Key issues... money and zoning.

 

Depending on how your area is, and if your town will let you do it.

 

Money... a good indoor range now, will cost you a good 1.5 mil.

 

Will let others chime in.

 

Figure in a startup cost of 1.5 mil, salaries for employees, liability insurance. then work backwards.

 

btw, this does not include the property. So add in property, if you are building, or leasing.

[djg0770 481]

RSOs: are they needed all the time? Or only when Pay-gos are shooting. I understand in Members' only ranges, they don't require a full-time RSO on staff.

 

IMO - RSO's are required at an indoor range. Furthermore, I would not want to see the projected insurance costs for a new range without RSO's...

[coldsolderjoint 84]

RSOs: are they needed all the time? Or only when Pay-gos are shooting. I understand in Members' only ranges, they don't require a full-time RSO on staff.

 

IMO - RSO's are required at an indoor range. Furthermore, I would not want to see the projected insurance costs for a new range without RSO's...

 

There are private clubs where there are no RSO's at the indoor ranges, but this isn't exactly what the OP was talking about because those clubs are open to the public.

[BCeagle 12]

I looked into it once, way too much money and trouble esp in a suburban area. There was a pretty long thread on it once.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

The question is: is there a market for it here in NJ? Is it a matter of 'they want to come, so build it"? Or "build it, and they will come".

 

Morristown area is a young professional crowd, lot's of whom may be interested to get into shooting. If a proper business model is presented, would a bank be prone to loaning money out on this?

[coldsolderjoint 84]

The question is: is there a market for it here in NJ? Is it a matter of 'they want to come, so build it"? Or "build it, and they will come".

 

Morristown area is a young professional crowd, lot's of whom may be interested to get into shooting. If a proper business model is presented, would a bank be prone to loaning money out on this?

 

Market Research and Business plan :-D

[kenw 293]

How about an indoor trap/skeet/sporting clays range?

 

That could be more acceptable to the powers that be than a rifle/pistol range. Need a friggin' huge building, though.

 

xJ_kd4tvId8

[coldsolderjoint 84]

How about an indoor trap/skeet/sporting clays range?

 

That could be more acceptable to the powers that be than a rifle/pistol range. Need a friggin' huge building, though.

 

xJ_kd4tvId8

 

Make it 24 hours, and i'd pay for that :-D

[Maksim 1,504]

At member only ranges, all members are typically RSO's with training.

[Malsua 1,422]

How about an indoor trap/skeet/sporting clays range?

 

That could be more acceptable to the powers that be than a rifle/pistol range. Need a friggin' huge building, though.

 

xJ_kd4tvId8

 

That guy stinks. LOL. I'm bad, but I'd do better than that.

[rscalzo 3]

You have some owners right here. They can tell you that it isn't a cheap undertaking. Even a outdoor range is extremal expensive due to the mandates needed to meet EPA and other regulations. Then you hold your breath hoping a bullet doesn't leave the range.

 

As an example, a range that I shoot at frequently recently expanded one range out to 600 yards. The cost to date, as it isn't completed has been over 500k. None of the costs included land acquisition as the club has over 300 acres.

[djg0770 481]

That could be more acceptable to the powers that be than a rifle/pistol range. Need a friggin' huge building, though.

 

There's a certain monstrosity in East Rutherford which fits that bill...

[rscalzo 3]

Bet you could get it cheap as long as a repaint wasn't part of the deal.

[djg0770 481]

Bet you could get it cheap as long as a repaint wasn't part of the deal.

 

[shore_shot 26]

there is nothing cheap about owning and operating a range. and with the internet and major sports shops with everyone trying to save a dollar soon there will be no more public ranges. i hope this is not true. but with current trend in business brick and mortars can justt not compete and with everyone trying to save a few bucks they are killing there favorite place that has over head and what not.

[BRICK ARMORY 10]

Besides the items already mentioned, a lot depends on the location. Is the state the range is located in a firearms friendly state? Firearms friendliness can cut both ways...while it helps with the legal/zoning/banking aspects, in can also work against you as many people shoot on their own land in firearm friendly states.

 

The bottom line in any business is location, location, location.

[NJgunowner86 0]

there is nothing cheap about owning and operating a range. and with the internet and major sports shops with everyone trying to save a dollar soon there will be no more public ranges. i hope this is not true. but with current trend in business brick and mortars can justt not compete and with everyone trying to save a few bucks they are killing there favorite place that has over head and what not.

 

Then how about the brick and mortar shops try and provide something that the big sport shops and internet cannot? I've been in your store and the service was great, very friendly. But with the prices you charge I would certainly never buy ammo for you. As a customer, what incentive is there for me to pay your prices when I can not only save a bunch by ordering online, but also:

 

- have a larger and easier selection

that one's not your fault, I know the state requires ammo to be locked away or behind the counter out of reach. But having shopped in PA and NC where the ammo is just right there and I can browse boxes and compare is a huge loss. So on the internet I get a nice list and big pictures to look at and compare prices side by side and not have to wait. Not your fault though so skip this one

 

- privacy

also this one is not your fault, mandated by the state again, but I hate filling out a register for ammo as if I'm some sort of criminal, sex offender, etc. and having to put down all my personal information and exactly how many rounds of what I may own, not to mention NJ's transportation hassle. Online, I can just get a nice plain brown box discreetly shipped to my door.

 

So between the state laws and all, really the only thing a brick and mortar shop can do is provide a good price. But because they rarely have a good price, I'm sorry but there's no incentive for me to buy there.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

there is nothing cheap about owning and operating a range. and with the internet and major sports shops with everyone trying to save a dollar soon there will be no more public ranges. i hope this is not true. but with current trend in business brick and mortars can justt not compete and with everyone trying to save a few bucks they are killing there favorite place that has over head and what not.

 

Then how about the brick and mortar shops try and provide something that the big sport shops and internet cannot? I've been in your store and the service was great, very friendly. But with the prices you charge I would certainly never buy ammo for you. As a customer, what incentive is there for me to pay your prices when I can not only save a bunch by ordering online, but also:

 

- have a larger and easier selection

that one's not your fault, I know the state requires ammo to be locked away or behind the counter out of reach. But having shopped in PA and NC where the ammo is just right there and I can browse boxes and compare is a huge loss. So on the internet I get a nice list and big pictures to look at and compare prices side by side and not have to wait. Not your fault though so skip this one

 

- privacy

also this one is not your fault, mandated by the state again, but I hate filling out a register for ammo as if I'm some sort of criminal, sex offender, etc. and having to put down all my personal information and exactly how many rounds of what I may own, not to mention NJ's transportation hassle. Online, I can just get a nice plain brown box discreetly shipped to my door.

 

So between the state laws and all, really the only thing a brick and mortar shop can do is provide a good price. But because they rarely have a good price, I'm sorry but there's no incentive for me to buy there.

 

At the very least, a price list would be nice. I know Firearms Guild in Rahway didn't have one.

[Maksim 1,504]

there is nothing cheap about owning and operating a range. and with the internet and major sports shops with everyone trying to save a dollar soon there will be no more public ranges. i hope this is not true. but with current trend in business brick and mortars can justt not compete and with everyone trying to save a few bucks they are killing there favorite place that has over head and what not.

 

Then how about the brick and mortar shops try and provide something that the big sport shops and internet cannot? I've been in your store and the service was great, very friendly. But with the prices you charge I would certainly never buy ammo for you. As a customer, what incentive is there for me to pay your prices when I can not only save a bunch by ordering online, but also:

 

- have a larger and easier selection

that one's not your fault, I know the state requires ammo to be locked away or behind the counter out of reach. But having shopped in PA and NC where the ammo is just right there and I can browse boxes and compare is a huge loss. So on the internet I get a nice list and big pictures to look at and compare prices side by side and not have to wait. Not your fault though so skip this one

 

- privacy

also this one is not your fault, mandated by the state again, but I hate filling out a register for ammo as if I'm some sort of criminal, sex offender, etc. and having to put down all my personal information and exactly how many rounds of what I may own, not to mention NJ's transportation hassle. Online, I can just get a nice plain brown box discreetly shipped to my door.

 

So between the state laws and all, really the only thing a brick and mortar shop can do is provide a good price. But because they rarely have a good price, I'm sorry but there's no incentive for me to buy there.

 

 

If you think Price is the only factor, you are sadly mistaken. Besides, price is set by supply and demand. Most gun shops with ranges in them, they do not want to sell ammo to people to take and leave. They need that ammo for people coming in to rent a gun. For someone who may come in to shoot a gun once or twice, a year, there is very little difference if the ammo is $10 a box or $40 a box. And once again, it is a business, unlike an internet business that is run out of a warehouse, or out of someone's house, or better yet drop shipped, gun stores have to pay the rent, etc.

 

Most people who shoot regularly, do not buy ammo at the ranges. The ranges do not hold it against you... believe me. Were some shops gouging to some degree, absolutely, but no worse than the folks at the gun shows charging $25 a box of 9mm, and had LINES of people waiting to buy it.

 

You are a cheap bastard, like most of us, who values price first, and service is a second to it. You will drive out of your way, spending more on gas and tolls, because ammo is a few bucks cheaper. You don't place a value on your time and convenience. I mean, seriously, how much do you think that gun shops should be marking up ammo?

 

If you shoot more than once a month, or say 500 rounds, it probably makes sense to invest $500 in yourself and get a reloading press.

 

The two times I purchased ammo at the range, were 1... when I rented a handgun in a caliber I didn't have and needed ammo. and 2. I was stupid and did not have ammo on reserve, and had to buy 2 boxes of 9mm Speer Gold Dots for $24 a box.

 

So who is to blame? The store that they had premium self defense ammo and it was more than what I wanted to pay.... or myself, that I was stupid enough not to have ammo in the first place. At the end of the day, we can all say these guys are gouging, Obama's fault that no ammo in stock, God's fault that the weather is crappy and people wanted to go shoot indoors, or God's fault that it is a nice day and all the ports at the outdoor range are taken. Its your own damn fault 95% of the time. No one makes you buy anything.

 

In any given situation, there are a set of given factors, and it is solely your decision what you want to do with it. It is you that makes the decision to take out that visa card and swipe it through the card reader.

 

People make the mistake of getting into gun ownership expecting it to be cheap. If anyone thinks the firearm is the most expensive part of gun ownership, they are a fool. You will easily spend more on: ammo, cleaning supplies, storage cases, range bag, memberships, walk on fees, training classes, CCW permits for out of state, shipping fees on various items, transfer fees on guns, nics fees, gas and mileage driven to go practice with the firearm, long term storage (safe), moisture control. This does not include reloading, where obviously, the press, the dies, the work bench, the tumbler, sifter, media, case prep ie chamfer tools, the shell plates, the shell holders, the turrets, the ammo storage boxes, the case lube, the reloading manuals, then the components (primers, bullets, powder, brass). Back to firearms, extra magazines, replacement barrels, springs, etc. This does not even include upgrades or replacement parts and gunsmithing time and money.

 

I think of firearms ownership like shaving. You can get your Gillete Mach 5/Turbo, wtf it is called now, and you get it for $10 or so.... you are going to spend more and more money on replacing the blades, $2 every two weeks.

 

So really, if paying a few bucks a box, for that one time, for ammo is a big deal.... consider the big picture. The ranges are geared towards selling ammo to those that either, by fault of their own did not bring their own ammo, or those that value being able to buy ammo on site, either they are shooting once every few months, or never shot and are renting guns. Anyone serious about shooting, either buys in bulk, or reloads.

 

Welcome to gun ownership.

[NJgunowner86 0]

Most people who shoot regularly, do not buy ammo at the ranges. The ranges do not hold it against you... believe me. Were some shops gouging to some degree, absolutely, but no worse than the folks at the gun shows charging $25 a box of 9mm, and had LINES of people waiting to buy it.

 

You are a cheap bastard, like most of us, who values price first, and service is a second to it. You will drive out of your way, spending more on gas and tolls, because ammo is a few bucks cheaper. You don't place a value on your time and convenience. I mean, seriously, how much do you think that gun shops should be marking up ammo?

 

If you shoot more than once a month, or say 500 rounds, it probably makes sense to invest $500 in yourself and get a reloading press.

 

The two times I purchased ammo at the range, were 1... when I rented a handgun in a caliber I didn't have and needed ammo. and 2. I was stupid and did not have ammo on reserve, and had to buy 2 boxes of 9mm Speer Gold Dots for $24 a box.

 

So who is to blame? The store that they had premium self defense ammo and it was more than what I wanted to pay.... or myself, that I was stupid enough not to have ammo in the first place. At the end of the day, we can all say these guys are gouging, Obama's fault that no ammo in stock, God's fault that the weather is crappy and people wanted to go shoot indoors, or God's fault that it is a nice day and all the ports at the outdoor range are taken. Its your own damn fault 95% of the time. No one makes you buy anything.

 

In any given situation, there are a set of given factors, and it is solely your decision what you want to do with it. It is you that makes the decision to take out that visa card and swipe it through the card reader.

 

People make the mistake of getting into gun ownership expecting it to be cheap. If anyone thinks the firearm is the most expensive part of gun ownership, they are a fool. You will easily spend more on: ammo, cleaning supplies, storage cases, range bag, memberships, walk on fees, training classes, CCW permits for out of state, shipping fees on various items, transfer fees on guns, nics fees, gas and mileage driven to go practice with the firearm, long term storage (safe), moisture control. This does not include reloading, where obviously, the press, the dies, the work bench, the tumbler, sifter, media, case prep ie chamfer tools, the shell plates, the shell holders, the turrets, the ammo storage boxes, the case lube, the reloading manuals, then the components (primers, bullets, powder, brass). Back to firearms, extra magazines, replacement barrels, springs, etc. This does not even include upgrades or replacement parts and gunsmithing time and money.

 

I think of firearms ownership like shaving. You can get your Gillete Mach 5/Turbo, wtf it is called now, and you get it for $10 or so.... you are going to spend more and more money on replacing the blades, $2 every two weeks.

 

So really, if paying a few bucks a box, for that one time, for ammo is a big deal.... consider the big picture. The ranges are geared towards selling ammo to those that either, by fault of their own did not bring their own ammo, or those that value being able to buy ammo on site, either they are shooting once every few months, or never shot and are renting guns. Anyone serious about shooting, either buys in bulk, or reloads.

 

Welcome to gun ownership.

 

Oh, no trust me I don't have any problem getting ammo.

 

For my rifles I shoot all Soviet calibers and I can just mail order spam cans of 7.62, 5.45 and x54 to my door. For my shotguns and .22's I just go to Walmart and get the bulk packs. I just bought a slug mold and lead dipper and I'm turning about 1/3rd my bulk pack birdshot into slugs now thanks to a video I saw on here so I am absolutely thrilled about that.

 

I was thinking about reloading for pistols 38/357, but I'm still finding great deals on commercially remanufactured ammo from georgia-arms.com so maybe in the summer when things get a little boring I might spend a couple hundred on reloading equipment and give it a whirl. I have a lot of spent cases for those two calibers and it'd probably work out to some good savings reloading them. But for now really the only caliber I purchase is .45 and I usually wait til ATG has some good ammo on special. I haven't bought ammo at a gun shop in about two years now. It's just that I do stop by to look at stuff every now and then and always get reminded why I never give a gun shop my money for ammo. I like to eat at the Stewarts in Rahway and I usually take a walk across the street to the gun shop there NJ Firearms Guild since those guys are really nice and they have a lot on accessible display to look at.

 

Also the most part ammo isn't that bad at the shows anymore. I saw a bunch of decently priced stuff (though still not as cheap as online) last week at the show in Valley Forge, the main ammo vendor in back had decent prices like $14 for 50rds Brass Cased 9mm or 2 for $25 and it's thankfully not nearly as bad there as it was i December. And back in Sept and June....holy shit it was hilarious. I'm going to the Harrisburg one this weekend, HUGE show biggest in the northeast I'm told (anyone else going?) and I wonder how it'll be out there.

 

You're right - I don't place a value on my time. Guns are my hobby so I don't mind driving a little ways. Ironically I actually love traveling and seeing places, usually when I take a ride I make a day of it too and get some beers somewhere, or maybe just take in the sights and listen to some music in the car. I'm just weird like that, I know many hate traveling but to me I like getting around, dunno why, just always have for some reason.

 

Luckily my rifles are all eastern bloc designs and I'm able to fix, modify, or upgrade just about anything that can possibly need to be done on them in my garage. I should also reveal that my gun hobby is somewhat self canceling as far as costs go as I do all sorts of work on accessories, furniture sets, sights, gas tubes, etc. all the little stuff you don't need an FFL or any kind of license to do, for people online. My last purchase - the gun and 3 extra magazines was paid for by money I made on my little projects over the last month. I can spend the whole damn night in the garage working with some music on, its just relaxing to me and cancels out a lot of (though certainly not all) of my expenses. I have considered getting an FLL to be able to do more profitable and gun-related mods for people on the soviet related guns I know how to work on, but I understand gunsmithing is a very experience related line of work and I figure most people would just second guess someone as young as me wanting to work on their gun, which would relegate me to internet sales only pretty much, and living in NJ I'd lose business from 40-something states cause chances are what they own and would want worked on is illegal here

 

And yeah DevsAdvocate I know exactly what you mean. Would be nice to have a little flier in a binder sleeve on the counter, heck even a white board on the wall with all the common stuff on it in marker. Would only take a couple minutes to do.

[Maksim 1,504]

its good that you shoot cheap soviet rounds. =P

 

as far as 9mm, check jimm flynn, you can get for about $12 a box?

 

Also, dix, umc remington is between $12.99 and $14.99, with the coupons, comes out cheaper.

 

but if you dont plan on reloading, just buy the cheap cases at cabelas and such.

[NJgunowner86 0]

its good that you shoot cheap soviet rounds. =P

 

as far as 9mm, check jimm flynn, you can get for about $12 a box?

 

Also, dix, umc remington is between $12.99 and $14.99, with the coupons, comes out cheaper.

 

but if you dont plan on reloading, just buy the cheap cases at cabelas and such.

 

Jim Flynn's I have heard of that, it's up north jersey right? Dick's is good yeah, my dad buys Remington 30-30 there with the rebates it comes out real cheap.

[Maksim 1,504]

its good that you shoot cheap soviet rounds. =P

 

as far as 9mm, check jimm flynn, you can get for about $12 a box?

 

Also, dix, umc remington is between $12.99 and $14.99, with the coupons, comes out cheaper.

 

but if you dont plan on reloading, just buy the cheap cases at cabelas and such.

 

Jim Flynn's I have heard of that, it's up north jersey right? Dick's is good yeah, my dad buys Remington 30-30 there with the rebates it comes out real cheap.

 

 

yep, around there somewhere... just do a search. I have never been there.

[Jersey Joe 4]

jim Flynn's Truck Repair

2135 Route 31

Glen Gardner, nj 08826

908-537-6446

 

Call first

[mrchill4 0]

open an indoor range near routes 4 and 17 in bergen county. you will clean up. there is nothing here. i quality,safe range is what is needed there. i live there. the only chooses are bullethole and the pearl river one....firing line. don't like either of them. open a nice clean, big indoor range and you will be very successful.

[CageFighter 236]

open an indoor range near routes 4 and 17 in bergen county. you will clean up. there is nothing here. i quality,safe range is what is needed there. i live there. the only chooses are bullethole and the pearl river one....firing line. don't like either of them. open a nice clean, big indoor range and you will be very successful.

 

Too bad it would probably be closed on Sunday bc of Blue Laws.

[PeteF 1,044]

Then how about the brick and mortar shops try and provide something that the big sport shops and internet cannot? I've been in your store and the service was great, very friendly. But with the prices you charge I would certainly never buy ammo for you. As a customer, what incentive is there for me to pay your prices when I can not only save a bunch by ordering online, but also:

 

So between the state laws and all, really the only thing a brick and mortar shop can do is provide a good price.

 

The smaller brick and mortar stores can never compete with the big retailers and internet suppliers. The amount of ammo shot at a NJ range in a year probably wouldn't even stock a PA Walmart for a month.

 

What the B&M stores offer is exactly what you said you got, Customer service. When all is said and done the companies that keep their customers happy are the ones who get repeat business and word of mouth advertising.

[ChrisJM981 924]

The smaller brick and mortar stores can never compete with the big retailers and internet suppliers. The amount of ammo shot at a NJ range in a year probably wouldn't even stock a PA Walmart for a month.

 

What the B&M stores offer is exactly what you said you got, Customer service. When all is said and done the companies that keep their customers happy are the ones who get repeat business and word of mouth advertising.

 

That must be a south Jersey thing.

[Jon 264]

That must be a south Jersey thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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