Do Teachers Really Deserve a Raise?

[GoNRA 12]

Nearly all students who took new alternate high school graduation test failed at least one section

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... ook_n.html

 

By The Star-Ledger Continuous News Desk

April 17, 2010, 9:58AM

 

all of the students who took the new alternate high school graduation test last January might not graduate this year after failing at least one section, a report in the Press of Atlantic City said.

 

The statewide alternate graduation test replaced the Special Review Assessment, which many criticized for being too easy, according to the report. The Education Law Center in Newark said 90 percent of the 10,308 students who took the Alternative High School Assessment failed the language arts section, and 66 percent did not pass the math section, the report said.

 

The center told the Press of Atlantic City the failure rate hit all the student demographics groups, whether it be wealthy suburban districts or poor, urban ones. The state Department of Education is expected to review and refine the test before it is given out again this month.

[kenw 293]

Nearly all students who took new alternate high school graduation test failed at least one section

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... ook_n.html

 

By The Star-Ledger Continuous News Desk

April 17, 2010, 9:58AM

 

all of the students who took the new alternate high school graduation test last January might not graduate this year after failing at least one section, a report in the Press of Atlantic City said.

 

The statewide alternate graduation test replaced the Special Review Assessment, which many criticized for being too easy, according to the report. The Education Law Center in Newark said 90 percent of the 10,308 students who took the Alternative High School Assessment failed the language arts section, and 66 percent did not pass the math section, the report said.

 

The center told the Press of Atlantic City the failure rate hit all the student demographics groups, whether it be wealthy suburban districts or poor, urban ones. The state Department of Education is expected to review and refine the test before it is given out again this month.

Lowering the bar for the children of New Jersey.

[Guest]

Do Teachers Really Deserve a Raise?

 

NO

[Celraysoda 7]

Do Teachers Really Deserve a Raise?

 

NO

 

+1. It's an entitlement issue. Raises should not be given for a job not done. But holding raises is no way to encourage them or to be used as a punishment. I know there is more to this including budget issues and such.

 

All contracts should be rewritten to include salary increases based on student performance...just an idea..

[djg0770 481]

All contracts should be rewritten to include salary increases based on student performance...just an idea..

 

I can see problems with that. A good teacher ends up getting all the bad apples, or a politically connected teacher gets all the easy kids...

 

I want to see merit pay, I really do. I also want tenure done away with. A bad teacher should be G-O-N-E gone in a heartbeat, period.

[GoNRA 12]

All contracts should be rewritten to include salary increases based on student performance...just an idea..

 

I can see problems with that. A good teacher ends up getting all the bad apples, or a politically connected teacher gets all the easy kids...

 

I want to see merit pay, I really do. I also want tenure done away with. A bad teacher should be G-O-N-E gone in a heartbeat, period.

 

+1

[wsl 2]

Seriously, why the constant teacher hate? Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job. Its in their contract, which is negotiated by the each local district. The contracts are negotiated in advance and usually run 4 years. So the raises people are complaining about were put in place by your school board and local officials. Start blaming them. A contract is a 2 way agreement. If you had a contract, would you want to change what you worked years to get because suddenly the climate of the situation changed?

 

Its like me making an agreement with Maks that we both agree is fair, someone else hears about it and then everyone demonizes one of us but not the other. Its pathetic. I get you think some are overpaid, but most aren't. You constantly post individuals with 100k salaries, while the average is is half that. And the assistant principal position isn't a teacher position, even if they still teach. Its an administration position which is where the real problem lies. These people start out at low salaries and have the responsibility to educate your children so you can go to work each day. You want to stay home and home school your kids? Who's going to work? Hire a babysitter or leave them unsupervised? Its a necessary job, yet you expect people to do it for peanuts.

 

I understand the economy is making everyone look closer at where money's going, but seriously, put the anger toward where you can make the difference. Teacher's don't get voted in, the board does. Your mayor and local officials do. They're the ones agreeing to these contracts, so contact them to make changes in the next contract. Just remember that in 4 years, the economy could be on a major upswing again. If you've been working for 30 years, would you be willing to stop a 4% increase because today the economy is shit? That's like me blaming you for not stocking up on ammo 2 years before the ammo shortage unexpectedly popped up.

 

Also, the examples that people are posting about bad teachers is no different than the dem's rolling out the examples of sick people and pity stories to support their cause. And just like then, for every example you give about a bad teacher, I can name 10 good teachers that helped tremendously from grade school through college. There's going to be bad people in every profession. Its unavoidable, but there's not more bad than good. And blanket blaming all of them does a disservice to those that do deserve what the make.

[PeteF 1,044]

Seriously, why the constant teacher hate? Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job. Its in their contract, which is negotiated by the each local district. The contracts are negotiated in advance and usually run 4 years. So the raises people are complaining about were put in place by your school board and local officials. Start blaming them. A contract is a 2 way agreement. If you had a contract, would you want to change what you worked years to get because suddenly the climate of the situation changed?

 

Problem is in corporate contracts, the management WILL NOT agree to a contract they can not afford. In public jobs our "Elected" officials just agree to everything and then raise taxes to pay for it.

[chefhunter34 1]

When all of us grunt workers who do not make the salary the teachers, UPS workers and all those mentioned above end up with EQUAL salaries, then the teachers can have a raise.

 

I was a Paramedic, (someone who saves lives) and was POORLY paid for the crap I put up with and the stress everyday. I left after 8 years and was only making $22000 a year. I was working 4 jobs to make ends meet. There needs to be some equality for the jobs performed. So all those people feeling sorry for the POOR teachers, look around and see what others are paid for what they do. If you think it is in line, give the teachers a raise, but make them pay in for benefits. Like the rest of us.

 

ok I'm done ranting.

[wsl 2]

When all of us grunt workers who do not make the salary the teachers, UPS workers and all those mentioned above end up with EQUAL salaries, then the teachers can have a raise.

 

I was a Paramedic, (someone who saves lives) and was POORLY paid for the crap I put up with and the stress everyday. I left after 8 years and was only making $22000 a year. I was working 4 jobs to make ends meet. There needs to be some equality for the jobs performed. So all those people feeling sorry for the POOR teachers, look around and see what others are paid for what they do. If you think it is in line, give the teachers a raise, but make them pay in for benefits. Like the rest of us.

 

ok I'm done ranting.

 

ok, so its jealousy?

 

Blame another field because the field you're in doesn't pay well. When most EMT's are volunteer and can start with only a 120 training course, why would the Paramedic, the next step up jump in pay? Not all jobs are equal. I agree your profession is important and should be something that gets a higher salary, but how is that a teacher's fault? You chose your profession right?

 

Job equality sounds alot like the socialism we're against in other threads.... So its perfectly ok to be against redistribution of wealth, but support it when it comes to the equality of job pay? If money is the determining factor for your job, you chose the wrong job. No one forced you to do what you did. But you're blaming others and want them penalized because its not fair....

 

And sorry, my comments aren't personal, I'm just trying to show the how hypocritical the 10+ threads about teachers sound.

[matt6669 71]

Yet every teacher complains they don't get paid enough but yet they picked that profession. Dude John just drop it, you are so far off base with this one it's not even funny. Do you even realize the crap that you just typed in your last post.

 

The whole school system is failed, it's not the teacher's faults and it's not the admins fault it's the systems fault. The system has allowed things to get entirely out of control and now something needs to be done.

 

But every aspect of our everyday lives need to be changed. We can no longer give out free handouts for everything is what it comes down to.

[djg0770 481]

Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job.

 

Actually, for Union Construction Workers it is different. If I have a Sheet Metal worker who shows up drunk to work, I call the office, have them send me a check THAT DAY for his work, hand him his check and tell him not to show up on my job site ever again. There are 10 guys sitting in the Union Hall that would be glad to have his job. So in that regard it is completely different.

 

As far as the UPS driver, dock worker, warehouse employee, etc. those contracts are negotiated with the individual corporations who generally are better financial stewards of their money than the local elected School Board who gets to spend OPM (other people's money).

 

In addition, there are quite a few corporations (GM, Chrysler are prominent ones that come to mind) who have recently had the Unions make concessions because of "hard times" and Chapter 11.

[chefhunter34 1]

jsl

ok, so its jealousy?

 

 

No it is not Jealousy. They chose their job too according to your posting that is chastising me for picking mine. You obviously side with the teachers, and most likely are very comfortable with your employment. Good for you. Teachers in my town are paid well, and we pay for all their benies. I am a very fair boss in my present job and treat all my workers fair and equally. It seems evident that you will never hear or be empathetic to the other side of an argument, so I guess it is just better for me to say nothing and let you keep thinking that teachers are in the clear with everything they do. Please just tell me you are not a Democrat?

[71ragtopgoat 23]

Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job.

 

Actually, for Union Construction Workers it is different. If I have a Sheet Metal worker who shows up drunk to work, I call the office, have them send me a check THAT DAY for his work, hand him his check and tell him not to show up on my job site ever again. There are 10 guys sitting in the Union Hall that would be glad to have his job. So in that regard it is completely different.

 

.

I can back that up. Most Union construction workers in the City are paid by the hour.If they work you for four hours that's all you are paid for that day. Get no paid holidays or vacation pay and can get laid off in a heart beat for little reason regardless of time spent with the company. We have a saying in the industry. Your only as good as your last paycheck. As of today most trades are discussing a 20% cut in pay on top of not taking a 7% cut last year just to try and compete with contractors who are non union and use mostly ilegal alian labor.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job.

 

Actually, for Union Construction Workers it is different. If I have a Sheet Metal worker who shows up drunk to work, I call the office, have them send me a check THAT DAY for his work, hand him his check and tell him not to show up on my job site ever again. There are 10 guys sitting in the Union Hall that would be glad to have his job. So in that regard it is completely different.

 

.

 

 

I can back that up. Most Union construction workers in the City are paid by the hour.If they work you for four hours that's all you are paid for that day. Get no paid holidays or vacation pay or sick days and can get laid off in a heart beat for little reason regardless of time spent with the company. We have a saying in the industry. Your only as good as your last paycheck. As of today most trades are discussing a 20% cut in pay on top of taking a 7% cut last year just to try and compete with contractors who are non union and use mostly ilegal alian labor.

[wsl 2]

 

 

No it is not Jealousy. They chose their job too according to your posting that is chastising me for picking mine. You obviously side with the teachers, and most likely are very comfortable with your employment. Good for you. Teachers in my town are paid well, and we pay for all their benies. I am a very fair boss in my present job and treat all my workers fair and equally. It seems evident that you will never hear or be empathetic to the other side of an argument, so I guess it is just better for me to say nothing and let you keep thinking that teachers are in the clear with everything they do. Please just tell me you are not a Democrat?

 

Independent and unemployed.

 

And you should treat your workers fair and equally. Where did I say that was wrong? But that's in the same occupation. Go Re-read your post again and you're talking about equal pay for different jobs. Its impossible. Supply and demand will set salaries, as well as education level. Nothing's drastically changed in how salaries are setup in the last 200 years. You can't wake up and say.. I want to flip burgers and make 100k a year.

 

You can think i'm off base, or wrong. I just think its idiotic to blame teachers for the system they're forced to operate in. You can't become a teacher if you don't join the union, so its not something they can control. Blame the people who need to be blamed, not those that can't control it.

 

Here's a few similiar idiotic examples:

 

Blaming Doctors because hospitals charge $50 for aspirin.

Blaming Maks because someone posts spam.

Blaming Matt because a gay guy hit on you... ok I'd do this one anyway, but just because I can.

 

My sister-in-law is a teacher, and the amount of hate out there, especially here lately over and over, is retarded. And her district renegotiated, and now they pay for their own benefits. And they did this before Christie make the calls for it. But those teachers who did what was necessary are thrown in to the pile with the districts that aren't making changes and want to raise taxes. Who's making that call? The Supervisors, not the teachers.

[matt6669 71]

You can think i'm off base, or wrong. I just think its idiotic to blame teachers for the system they're forced to operate in. You can't become a teacher if you don't join the union, so its not something they can control. Blame the people who need to be blamed, not those that can't control it.

 

 

Not true at all. If they don't like their Unions, all it takes is for a group of teachers to stand up to their Union officials and demand change. If the teachers wanted to, they could get rid of the teachers union but why would a teacher EVER want to do that.

 

M

[djg0770 481]

But that's in the same occupation. Go Re-read your post again and you're talking about equal pay for different jobs. Its impossible. Supply and demand will set salaries, as well as education level. Nothing's drastically changed in how salaries are setup in the last 200 years.

 

I suggest you take a look at private school teachers who are not unionized and compare apples to apples. You will see that in private schools the teachers pay for their healthcare and are NOT compensated to the level of the public schools. They do not receive a state sponsored pension, they do not receive "free" healthcare, if they SUCK they are terminated, etc.

 

For the record, my mom was a public school teacher for 27 years, and stopped her education just short of her doctoral thesis. She never made 100k. For several of those years she quit the union because she felt they did not go to bat for her on one or two specific personal issues. Eventually she re-succumbed to the pressure of the shop steward and joined again before retiring. There is an enormous amount of pressure to join the union after you receive tenure. The union tends to leave you alone before you are tenured.

[Guest]

Seriously, why the constant teacher hate? Its a union job. Its no different for UPS drivers, Police Officers, Dock workers or any union job. Its in their contract, which is negotiated by the each local district.

 

my tax dollars do not pay the wages of UPS, and the local dock worker.. and if THEY make stupid decisions the company will simply go under... i do not particularly want to watch government suffer the same fate.. even though they insist on continuing to spend money they dont have.. so i think some of us find fault in paying a guy 80 thousand dollars a year to teach some kid how to add and subtract 5 classes a day 9 months a year.. YES teachers play a VERY important role in society.. YES they should earn a fair honest income.. but teachers.. along with MANY other professions simply earn too much money.. and when i say "too much" i mean to say that they are earning more than is reasonable considering the present financial climate we are all living in.. and i FURTHER find fault in them due to the GROSS sense of entitlement as pointed out earlier... the whole "we deserve a raise" nonsense.. AND to take it one step further, i find the actions of the unions really eye opening.. stating that teachers will leave.. and that only a childs education will suffer.. that basically says "we teach your children.. pay us what we want or we will just do a shitty job".. well no offense to anyone in the teaching profession but that is a pretty shitty attitude to have, when you meet adversity you should find ways to work with what you have, as opposed to simply bitching about what you dont..

[Blackfox 1]

There is an enormous amount of pressure to join the union after you receive tenure. The union tends to leave you alone before you are tenured

.

 

I agree with your post, but you lost me with tenure. Once a teacher gets tenure it's almost impossible to fire them. Usually you get in the union when you get your job, as far as I now you're not obligated to get in, either you pay 100% dues or 80% a not belong to it. In other words you're force to be in it. Today most districts got rid of tenure.

I worked in the school and paid a fee of $52 a month for nothing in return that's the way I see it.

[XDJohnTact 49]

I think if you were to actually poll a group of teachers, they would not be opposed to a wage freeze? But why stop at teachers, why not have every union public employee accept a wage freeze? Hell, we pay taxes for all those employees!

 

In NJ since the mid-70s, if you work in a school and the unit you work for (teacher's, secretaries, custodial, bus workers) are represented by a union, you have to pay into it. I believe Blackfox is correct, it is 100% dues to belong and 80% to not belong, but you are paying regardless. If you do not join and if you ever have an issue with your supervisor or administrator, how hard do you think the union is going to fight on your behalf? Tenure is not some magic wand, it just protects the teachers for being fired "without cause". Sure, it makes it harder to fire a teacher but not impossible. Inappropriate behavior, insubordination, failure to meet acceptable test scores all constitute just cause. A lot of schools get around tenure by only keeping teachers for three years, then dumping them and hiring a new batch.

 

Most school boards have been requiring new hires to pay into their health benefits costs since around 2002. In most cases the laws prevent them from attaching the benefits of previously hired staff, but eventually, the "old guard" will be gone and all school employees will be paying into their benefits. Teachers have always payed a percentage into their retirement plans. Did you know that teachers were not able to open a 401k?

 

Now we have class curriculum's, course objectives and competency exams. For example, all freshmen Math classes have the same curriculum and at the end of the year they all take the same test. In the past, teachers were allowed to make up their own exams for their classes, so it was easy to structure a test that your kids could pass and then these same kids would not pass the "standardized" tests.

 

Why are test scores so important? Because the amount of state aid and federal money is dependent on test scores. Some districts try to skirt test scored by having a large population of "classified" students, who are exempt from taking the standardized tests. This is all orchestrated by the administration in an attempt to make their school look good and not lose state and federal money. With NCLB, they may now have to take the "Alternative Testing" unless they have an IEP which exempts them from even taking that test. The teachers are only the pawns in this game. A statement like "98% of our students passes the state assessment tests" really means 98% of the students we let take the test passed! Many of the students we knew could not pass were exempt because we have classified them.

 

Yes, the system is broken, but bashing just the teachers or blaming them for everything is not going to fix a thing!

[Ray Ray 3,566]

No

[mikeyboyeee 66]

 

 

No it is not Jealousy. They chose their job too according to your posting that is chastising me for picking mine. You obviously side with the teachers, and most likely are very comfortable with your employment. Good for you. Teachers in my town are paid well, and we pay for all their benies. I am a very fair boss in my present job and treat all my workers fair and equally. It seems evident that you will never hear or be empathetic to the other side of an argument, so I guess it is just better for me to say nothing and let you keep thinking that teachers are in the clear with everything they do. Please just tell me you are not a Democrat?

 

Independent and unemployed.

 

And you should treat your workers fair and equally. Where did I say that was wrong? But that's in the same occupation. Go Re-read your post again and you're talking about equal pay for different jobs. Its impossible. Supply and demand will set salaries, as well as education level.Nothing's drastically changed in how salaries are setup in the last 200 years. You can't wake up and say.. I want to flip burgers and make 100k a year.

 

You can think i'm off base, or wrong. I just think its idiotic to blame teachers for the system they're forced to operate in. You can't become a teacher if you don't join the union, so its not something they can control. Blame the people who need to be blamed, not those that can't control it.

 

Here's a few similiar idiotic examples:

 

Blaming Doctors because hospitals charge $50 for aspirin.

Blaming Maks because someone posts spam.

Blaming Matt because a gay guy hit on you... ok I'd do this one anyway, but just because I can.

 

My sister-in-law is a teacher, and the amount of hate out there, especially here lately over and over, is retarded. And her district renegotiated, and now they pay for their own benefits. And they did this before Christie make the calls for it. But those teachers who did what was necessary are thrown in to the pile with the districts that aren't making changes and want to raise taxes. Who's making that call? The Supervisors, not the teachers.

 

The hate comes from all the teachers now whining they want their pay raises and don't want to pay for their benefits like everyone else.