School me on AKs

[bbk 188]

The general AK vs AR thread got me thinking.

Maybe I don't hold much respect for AKs because I don't personally own one (though I do have hands-on experience). Regardless, my interest is piqued, and I figure its worth getting schooled at least to figure out if its worth an actual investment of money.

I have done searches on this forum, and generally, but between NJ laws and 922r compliance, it makes my head spin.

 

So, what are examples of NJ legal AKs? From what I've gathered, it cannot be marked with "AK 47" or something. Also, from what I understand, Saigas cannot accept any "hi cap" magazines (anything beyond their stock 10 rounders) without first being 922r compliant.

 

What are the brands to take note of, good and bad? I've heard repeatedly Arsenal and Saigas are the way to go. Century is hit or miss. RPK-based AKs are solid, but I am not sure which brands use this (VEPR only?)

 

As for "what I'm looking for," I think it'd be pretty obvious. A normal, conscript ( ), configuration is fine-- obviously not trying to make this a bench rest gun. And preferably chambered for 7.62x39.

 

Regarding price. I understand that higher quality will cost more obviously. I'll be honest, I'm looking for "best bang for the buck." I won't buy the cheapest AK just because its cheap-- but I don't want to pour too much (because at that point I'd be looking at different systems all together). I don't want to note a price though, and rather leave that open to debate.

 

I'd prefer to stick to the topic of AK variants strictly in the thread-- no need to make this another pissing match between different types of firearms

[jeff47 30]

My personnel opinion is that an AK is an AK, but some are certainly of higher quality. They were made by dozens of countries all over the world, all of which have added there own personal flavor and in some cases some neat features.

 

The Saiga is basically a sporterized AK. It use a proprietary fire control group which is best decribed as 'craptastic'. I don't think anyone buys a Saiga without some plan to convert at least the FCG and pistol grip of the standard semi auto AK clone. They are made in Russia.

 

The VEPR is considered a top quality AK type rifle as well. I've never used one but I've heard good things about them and I'm sure someone else will chime in shortly. I beleive they're made in the Molot arsenal in Russia, though I've heard they are made in the Ukraine as well?

 

The SAR and WASR rifle are made in Romania, the main difference being that WASR rifles are usually single stack only. I don't think they're importing the SAR's any longer? There is a marked difference in pre 1986 Rom and post 86 romy rifles. The earlier ones are considered to be just as good as any other AK while the later ones have a much rougher fit and finish. They still function fine but they are cosmetically not as nice. The post 86 rifles are also known to have occasional canting issues on the front sight, be aware of this if you look at one.

 

The MAK90 is made in China and is considered to be very accurate as far as AK's go. Their mass import decades ago made them the go to rifle for Gang bangers in CA and arguably helped lead to the original assualt weapons ban. All Chinese Made AK's use a smaller 19mm front trunnion as opposed to the standard 23mm and occasional 22mm. (This measurement describes the outer diameter of the barrel where is inserts into the trunnion).

 

The Valmet is considered to be one the greatest AK off shoots (made in Finland) and then there is the Galil (which was originally built on tolling from Valmet). Both of these rifles have tried to correct some of the major issues with the AK platform. Specifically The painfully slow mag changes as opposed to say the AR and the ridiculously silly fire selector switch.

 

There are also a slew of 'smithed' AK's from a variety of people (including Century and many far better smaller smiths such as ARS) who use imported Military AK parts and build them on NDS or other contract receivers. I have built several rifles myself using this method.

 

The upside to this type rifle is that you can get all kinds of cool rifles from Yugoslavia, Romania, Russia, Egypt, etc. A quick note about the Maadi rifles from Egypt, they are considered to be the closest copy of the original russian rifle as they are the only rifles to be made on the original Russian tooling that was sold to them.

 

Some consider the Yugo rifles to be very high quality, their standard rifles (The M70 series) and their RPK's (M72) both use a heavy RPK front trunnion and a special rear trunnion only used by Yugo style AK's. Their M92 style 'krink' rifles are the only ones that use a 'standard' front trunnion and are often chambered in 5.45 but occasionally in 7.62 as well. The standard Yugo rifle uses a different gas block as well. They have a flip up piece that serves to cut off the gas flow to the receiver and serve as a sight for when using rifle grenades. They are the only rifle to also incorporate a special locking lug to keep the top cover from flying off when firing rifle grenades. For some unknown reason the Yugo rifles are not normally chrome lined.

 

I'm sure someone will come along shortly to add to this but this should get you started with some basic AK info.

 

Good luck.

[lunker 274]

Nothing Yugo-made is chrome lined. Their country does not have the mineral deposits necessary to make home-grown chrome.

Don't let that deter you. The Yugo stuff is nice.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

VEPRs are nice but expensive and not in military configuration and would be even more money to convert. Lots. They also have an RPK reciever so unless you convert to an RPK, you wont have an authentic looking AK.

 

SARs are the older and alot better version than the WASR. They are on original hi-cap recievers and have dimples. WASRs, even the double stackers, have single stack recievers (no dimples) that have been hogged out by century to accept double stacks. So the reciever on the WASR isnt "correct" either if you want the historic effect. But they go bang! The SARs (all of them, unless modded) come NJ legal with no lugs and no muzzle device/threads. Some WASRs may need the lug ground down and/or the muzzle nut or brake welded.

 

Arsenals are professionally converted saigas. Unless you can convert the saiga yourself, this is the way to go.

 

I hear the century bulgy '74s are nice. You would have to have the lugs ground off and the muzzle brake tacked on though before you can take possesion of it in NJ.

 

 

You also have to decide caliber; 5.45 or 7.62. 5.45 can be had for about 10 cents a round for corrosive or 180/k for non corrosive. 7.62 is 16 cents for corrosive and 18 cents for non corrosive (same as 5.45 non corrosive, 180/k). 5.45 is flat shooting and zero recoil while the 7.62 packs more punch (but not heavy recoil, just a little bit more than 5.45)

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Good post BBK and thanks for the info Jeff. It isn't like you can walk into a gunshop and buy one. I've seen the Saiga's and I don't feel like "building" an AK.

 

Where's PK90?!?

[lunker 274]

Good post BBK and thanks for the info Jeff. It isn't like you can walk into a gunshop and buy one. I've seen the Saiga's and I don't feel like "building" an AK.

 

Where's PK90?!?

 

Ray,

that is only true in Jersey, although I know Brick Armory, Shore Shot and some shop way down in Vineland do sell AKs (and there are probably more I don't know about).

This is a big reason for you to head to PA for a gun show. Just remember to play the "evil" features game and you will be good. Since AKs have a detachable magazine and a pistol grip (just to be safe, count a thumbhole stock as a pistol grip), you can't have a flash hider, bayonet lug, collapsible stock (not a concern on AKs ), or any other listed "evil" feature.

I have a VEPR and Zastava (Serbian) PAP and love them. I enjoy 7.62x39 and the AK platform so much more than the AR platform. I won't say they are better (there is a thread on that already), but to me they are more fun. There is no toy-like "sproing" of a buffer and the deeper sound and (still very light) recoil of 7.62 ammo are very satisfying. Don't think that accuracy is bad either. They are good within their intended range (<= 300 yards). I was picking off tomatoes on sticks at 75 yards at Fort Dix with the PAP, no problem.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

An AK is on my list, and I'll problably go with a member here (Glenn!) when I finally get the scratch for one.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

An AK is on my list, and I'll problably go with a member here (Glenn!) when I finally get the scratch for one.

 

Let me know when you get the itch. I have a guest pass at easton waitin for you and a few steel plates

[Shane45 807]

Ill be the hold out and resist the commie gun! Unless of course an AK competition rears its head LOL

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Come to the dark side shane, we have cookies :shock:

[lunker 274]

Yeah, I know this is a little self-serving but ...

 

I just put my Zastava PAP up in the MarketPlace. I have to pay for a new Springfield M1A Scout Squad I am picking up next weekend, and the spare AK is the victim (the VEPR isn't going anywhere).

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Lunk, why did you say the WASRs have pot metal recievers? they are steel just like the PAP

[lunker 274]

Lunk, why did you say the WASRs have pot metal recievers? they are steel just like the PAP

 

 

I have heard it referred to by others as pot metal. Maybe that was just their sarcastic and derisive way of describing it. The PAP is a much more solid receiver than the WASR. Maybe it's the same material, just thicker?

Anyway, Glenn I amended my listing on your advice (and to be less hostile towards WASRs ).

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

The standard thickness is 1mm which has worked for everybody and works damn well. Of course, the yugos had to be different and theres is 1.6mm I believe. I see it as a waste of steel because I've never heard of a standard thickness stamped reciever wear out or bend or anything. The steel quality isnt poor in the WASRs, its just the thinner, standard reciever.

[lunker 274]

The standard thickness is 1mm which has worked for everybody and works damn well. Of course, the yugos had to be different and theres is 1.6mm I believe. I see it as a waste of steel because I've never heard of a standard thickness stamped reciever wear out or bend or anything. The steel quality isnt poor in the WASRs, its just the thinner, standard reciever.

 

Thanks for the schooling Glenn. That's a cool fact. I knew the Yugos had the no chrome barrel thing for SKS and AK because of their geography/geology, and they have the heavier wood SKS with grenade launcher. I guess they go their own way with firearms. My perception of a proper receiver thickness was skewed because I own a VEPR and a PAP. I will admit that the thicker steel feels more satisfying in a receiver, regardless of its utility.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Yeah, Tito had his way of saying fuck you to the USSR via firarms. Notice that every yugo gun is different than the soviet counterpart. They are the only ones who extended the TT33 grip, they are the only ones with a integral grenade launcher on the SKS and AKs, and they had unique recievers on the AKs that would only take yugo furniture (easy ID on the handguards, 3 slats). Silly Tito!

[Shane45 807]

Did someone say cookies ???

 

Having had the AK discussion once or twice Im often tempted but always seem to abstain. But Lunker, yours caught my eye but its too damn pretty for me because if I do get an AK it will be treated rudely for sure hehe.

[Maksim 1,504]

Veprs were made in Russia, by Vyatskii Polyani... they were taken over by izmaesh/saiga. No longer made and were imported only from 1998? or 1999 through 2001 or 2002. Imported by Robinson Arms (rob arms)

 

The original models were the Vepr's. RPK receiver, thumbhole wood stock and foregrip. 2 stage match trigger. They came in 7.62x39, .223 and 308 models. 7.62 used a slightly modified magazine. .223 used AK 74 magazines with a Robinson Arms follower, and 308 had their own mags.

 

then came the Vepr K's and Vepr 2. These used the same exact receiver, however also came in a shorter barrel, however these had more american parts now after the ban. the new vepr's had a new, lighted polymer stock and foregrip, different triggers I believe. The great news, the 7.62, and the new 5.45 calibers were using standard AK mags.

 

the cream of the crop, or what makes every VEPR fanboy melt in their pants is the highly coveted Super Vepr.

 

these were imported for one or two years in limited numbers, they were 308 only and had a one piece wood stock, rail mount etc. IE. Heavy duty RPK AK system redone for DMR duty.

 

the plus sides.... great great great receiver, yes, Glenn will say it is not a true AK , but it is 50% stronger receiver. Better near match quality barrel, and a great trigger.

 

The downsides are the mags for the 308's are scarce (not that bad, but expensive), and the weight gets up there.

 

I have a Vepr that I picked up from Cabelas on a trip, a few of you shot it at Dix. I freaking love it. Was fortunate enough to buy it with 13 mags, 12 of which are 15 rounders, and one 5 round mag. Mine is a 223.

 

I am always looking for a Super vepr for a good price, but tough to find one for what I am willing to pay, sub $1500, and ideally for $1000 or so.

 

http://www.robarm.com/RA_vepr_akrpkcomp.htm

 

 

Vepr 1

 

Vepr K

 

Vepr 2

 

Holy Grail Super Vepr

 

More great reading on the Vepr.

 

There was another rifle of a guy who shot his stock Vepr in a NRA High Power service rifle match and did quite well with it.

 

http://www.robarm.com/RA_russian_firearms.htm

[Maksim 1,504]

Forgot.... the Ukranian model is not the Vepr that VP did.

 

It is a bullpup design that has absolutely nothing to do with the original Vepr.

 

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as68-e.htm

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I dont see why the heavy recieiver is so great. Show me a worn out standard reciever due to sustained semi-automatic fire :roll: or even full auto. And yeah maks, I'll never get over the lack of correctness (unless you do an RPK conversion!)

 

If you have the desire for a heavy reciever just get a milled AK. They are correct and even heavier than the RPK style recievers that the VEPR uses. The century polish milled AKs are a good buy. If you want a match trigger, less than 100 bucks gets you the RSA trigger group which is 4 point adjustable and very nice. I think J&Gsales has em for $589ish. So for under $700 you get a heavy AK, already in military configuration, with a match trigger. With the inherit lack of accuracy for the rifles I dont see too much of a point of getting a top $$$ "match" grade AK. You will never get an AK to shoot sub MOA groups..

 

-The overtravel built into the action boosts reliability a ton, detriment to accuracy

-Slop in the action boosts reliability a ton, detriment to accuracy

-Long stroke gas system, big heavy bolt and piston reciprocating in entirety boosts reliability a ton, detriment to accuracy

[Maksim 1,504]

Heavier receiver means less heating up, means increased accuracy in longer strings of fire.

 

Glenn, my stock vepr vs any AK any day. Even slap a scope on it.

 

Mine is at 1 inch right now with a basic load. Go to rob arms website for more accuracy range reports.

 

This is where we differ. I could care less for military correctness, I just care about having the best package that I enjoy shooting.

 

BTW, Russian military is not about the best for the grunts, but about cheapest to build.... and the rpm receivers were sooooooooo incorrect that saga decided to buy out the vyatskii polyni factory and now sells vepr clones.

 

Come down and shoot mine or find one you can shoot and fondle for a while... then we will continue.

 

Can you build a more true AK? Absolutely, but for someone who just wants to buy, they are tough to beat. I have owned wasrs, saigas, and shot paps, norincos, amd,s. They are nowhere near the fit and finish of the veprs.

[FFDP82 4]

I dont see why the heavy recieiver is so great. Show me a worn out standard reciever due to sustained semi-automatic fire :roll: or even full auto.

 

Same here. I always hear all tons of hoopla about milled receivers, thick receivers, etc.

 

Still waiting to see a pic of even a WASR that died during civilian target shooting use

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Heavier receiver means less heating up, means increased accuracy in longer strings of fire.

 

Glenn, my stock vepr vs any AK any day. Even slap a scope on it.

 

Mine is at 1 inch right now with a basic load. Go to rob arms website for more accuracy range reports.

 

This is where we differ. I could care less for military correctness, I just care about having the best package that I enjoy shooting.

 

BTW, Russian military is not about the best for the grunts, but about cheapest to build.... and the rpm receivers were sooooooooo incorrect that saga decided to buy out the vyatskii polyni factory and now sells vepr clones.

 

Come down and shoot mine or find one you can shoot and fondle for a while... then we will continue.

 

Can you build a more true AK? Absolutely, but for someone who just wants to buy, they are tough to beat. I have owned wasrs, saigas, and shot paps, norincos, amd,s. They are nowhere near the fit and finish of the veprs.

 

I'm not saying that any AK will beat a VEPR (I know it wouldnt) I said I dont see the point of a "match" grade AK, and about the reciever as I said, why not just go milled at that point if reciever thickness means so much? Any milled reciever will have less flex and more even heating than a RPK stamped reciever. Plus its correct for '47s!

 

$1,000 and up will get you a more accurate .308 target rifle than a VEPR. If you leave the VEPR as-is, it just doesnt have that AK appeal to me. But thats where we differ :snooty:

 

I suppose we could agree to disagree

[Shane45 807]

On a reguler duty AK I would hyothisise its irrelivant. But generally speaking when accuracy is the game rigidity is just about always better. But Im sure Im stating the obvious here.

[lunker 274]

I'm not saying that any AK will beat a VEPR (I know it wouldnt) I said I dont see the point of a "match" grade AK, and about the reciever as I said, why not just go milled at that point if reciever thickness means so much? Any milled reciever will have less flex and more even heating than a RPK stamped reciever. Plus its correct for '47s!

 

For some reason, I seem to recall that the stamped receivers have a better reputation for accuracy. That would seem to run contrary to expectation (i.e. you would think a heavier milled receiver would be more accurate). Why is that? Or am I just wrong about the accuracy thing?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I'm not saying that any AK will beat a VEPR (I know it wouldnt) I said I dont see the point of a "match" grade AK, and about the reciever as I said, why not just go milled at that point if reciever thickness means so much? Any milled reciever will have less flex and more even heating than a RPK stamped reciever. Plus its correct for '47s!

 

For some reason, I seem to recall that the stamped receivers have a better reputation for accuracy. That would seem to run contrary to expectation (i.e. you would think a heavier milled receiver would be more accurate). Why is that? Or am I just wrong about the accuracy thing?

 

 

I've heard that milled is more accurate, and also that it makes no difference, but never that stamped is more accurate. I'm more inclined to believe milled is more accurate. Guess I gotta buy one to find out

[Maksim 1,504]

I dont see why the heavy recieiver is so great. Show me a worn out standard reciever due to sustained semi-automatic fire :roll: or even full auto.

 

Same here. I always hear all tons of hoopla about milled receivers, thick receivers, etc.

 

Still waiting to see a pic of even a WASR that died during civilian target shooting use

 

None have died that I know of in civilian target shooting use.

 

But no one mentioned that. We are talking accuracy and long term reliability.

 

20,000 round rapid fire torture test... which would you rather go for?

 

Heritage and all, all the AK's I have played with, minus a few.... just feel like cheap shit. That is the reason I sold the Wasr, the Saiga, and the PSL.

 

The only AK's that had my expectations of build quality and overall fit and finish are the Pap and Veprs.

 

But this is like comparing a stock DPMS versus a LWRC ar.

[FFDP82 4]

20,000 round rapid fire torture test... which would you rather go for?

 

Heritage and all, all the AK's I have played with, minus a few.... just feel like cheap ****. That is the reason I sold the Wasr, the Saiga, and the PSL.

 

The only AK's that had my expectations of build quality and overall fit and finish are the Pap and Veprs.

 

But this is like comparing a stock DPMS versus a LWRC ar.

 

I would have no problem rooting for a bottom of the bucket WASR, G-kit build, etc. in a 20,000 round torture test. I have seen pics/videos of total piece of shit 50+ year old AKs covered in rust (literally, the whole gun's orange) and the damn thing is still working 100%. I have no doubt that any AK would last through whatever torture test thrown at . After all, that's pretty much the sole intention they designed this gun for - to last through anything and be built for pennies. Ergonomics, Accuracy, etc. was all pretty much secondary

 

If you like the finer fit and finish of stuff PAPs/VEPRs and stuff like that, and going for the most accuracy possible, that's cool. I'm just with glenn on the whole "accurate AK" thing.

[bbk 188]

This has definitely been some good info. I've chosen to be the silent audience so I could get as much unfettered info as possible-- good stuff, thank you all.

 

I have to admit though, I almost feel more overwhelmed!

I can respect people who want the luxury (that word is of course used as a stretch as applied to AKs) of certain brands. Truth is, in my application, I'm looking for a pure beater. Aesthetics is something I really don't care for at all (even with my other firearms).

 

Just keep plugging away (and I'll probably ask more questions down the road), thanks for the info again.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I've been standing by watching as well and this is tooo much crazyness. I guess if you ask the same question in the AR forum, Caine, Shane, and bbk would point you in three different directions. Which is cool, but confusing.