Another "is this new jersey legal question"

[david8613 69]

I saw this online and was wondering if this is legal in the garden state?

 

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[SpecialK 193]

I was going to get one of these when I lived in CO, if it is legal in NJ(which i doubt) I will probably still be getting it :-)

[bbk 188]

It is considered an AOW, and, IIRC, AOW and machine guns are the only NFA items allowed in NJ... so, if it is in fact legal, then its a matter of getting those forms signed off (which is a totally different manner in itself).

ETA: This doesn't necessarily mean the Serbu is in fact NJ legal under NFA law-- its that AOWs (though limited from my understanding, whatever that means) are allowed.

[tommy3rd 132]

isn't that essentially a "sawed off shotgun" by NJ's legal definition?

 

"Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

then it follows it with:

"No person shall sell or acquire a sawed-off shotgun."

[david8613 69]

I'm not sure but wouldn't this be considered pistol? So it's not a sawed off per say.

[SpecialK 193]

"Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed

shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger,

or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition.

 

under the definition from http://www.nj.gov/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf as it is not considered a shotgun. because either "Shotgun means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger" OR "any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition."

 

That thing is definitely not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

[bbk 188]

From my understanding, it is considered an AOW based on the fact that it is a smooth-bore pistol.

It is not considered a shotgun for the exact reason mentioned by SpecialK. To add, since Serbu manufactures the Super Shorty from shotguns that came with pistol grips and no stock, it cannot be claimed to be a shotgun.

Now, I guess the debate might be whether or not NJ would focus on the "AOW" label or the fact that its known as a smooth-bore pistol.

[tommy3rd 132]

so what makes that any different than a mossberg pistol grip shotgun bought straight from the factory? that's not shoulder fired but it's still a shotgun, right?

[SpecialK 193]

so what makes that any different than a mossberg pistol grip shotgun bought straight from the factory? that's not shoulder fired but it's still a shotgun, right?

My last Mossberg pistol grip shotgun purchase that I did in Colorado was put down as a pistol sale, but it could have been sold as a shotgun there. According to New Jerseys definition it is not a shotgun, but since when has NJ paid attention to what it says?

[SpecialK 193]

in fact the pistol grip shot gun from that document has no specific specification and would only fall under the general "firearms" groups since

"Handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of

a single hand.

and

"Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed

metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

 

Pistol grip shotguns can be fired with one hand but none are designed to be fired with only one and pistol grip shotguns are once again not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

[tommy3rd 132]

I guess the litmus test is to call and ask several FFL and see if they will sell you one. If we're discussing what category a pistol grip shotgun falls under, then the confusing statutes might be enough to make the FFL think twice about selling you one.

[Shane45 807]

Im sure it doesnt make weight. If it did, then it wouldnt be allowed to have a VFG. Ive never seen it billed as anything other than class 3 AOW.

[SpecialK 193]

...but since when has NJ paid attention to what it says?

 

Just reiterating what I said earlier and adding that IANAL. There may have been a court case that ended up in case law determining the requirement for a shotgun and/or other laws passed on the matter that I am not aware of. My posts were simply pointing out how NJ defined their firearms terms from what I could find.

[david8613 69]

Sorry newbish but what is aow?

[Shane45 807]

Its a bucket term for ones not falling into one of the clearly defined catagories. It stands for Any Other Weapon.

[david8613 69]

I found this:

 

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5220

 

I gather

aow= yes

sbs=no

for new jersey

[PK90 3,573]

I had a Federally approved Mossberg AOW in 12GA (pistol grip shotgun with 14" barrel) and was told by the NJSP that it was not legal here, because they considered it a shotgun (even though the definition of a shotgun does not fit). After I had to explain to them what an AOW was, I was told that if they determine it not to be a shotgun by federal definition, they would consider it to be a destruction device because it is over 50 caliber. I did not push the issue any further. Perhaps the Super Shorty in 20GA would be legal. But IMHO, not worth the fight.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

20ga is still over the .50 cal limit so if they go with the DD logic, a 20ga is still a DD. It cant be a pistol since it has a smooth bore.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I had a Federally approved Mossberg AOW in 12GA (pistol grip shotgun with 14" barrel) and was told by the NJSP that it was not legal here, because they considered it a shotgun (even though the definition of a shotgun does not fit). After I had to explain to them what an AOW was, I was told that if they determine it not to be a shotgun by federal definition, they would consider it to be a destruction device because it is over 50 caliber. I did not push the issue any further. Perhaps the Super Shorty in 20GA would be legal. But IMHO, not worth the fight.

 

sadly...

 

NJ Gun Law = Circus

 

no one has any idea WTH is even going on.. so when faced with a question that does not fit standard definition.. Illegal...

[david8613 69]

PK90 how long ago was that? If it was long ago Maybe things are different now.

[PK90 3,573]

PK90 how long ago was that? If it was long ago Maybe things are different now.

Six years. BUT, hell has not yet froze over.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

BTW it is definatly an AOW as far as feds go:

 

Due to the following, cant be SBS

 

"A short-barreled shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip is categorized as an AOW rather than a SBS, because the Gun Control Act describes a shotgun as “…designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder…”"

 

Smooth bore pistols are caught under the same catagory.

 

 

So theres no go around. Its not a shotgun, not a short barreled shotgun, and not a pistol. Its an AOW (either can look at it as a SBS with pistol grip or smooth bore pistol, no difference as far as NFA goes)

[SpecialK 193]

I had a Federally approved Mossberg AOW in 12GA (pistol grip shotgun with 14" barrel) and was told by the NJSP that it was not legal here, because they considered it a shotgun (even though the definition of a shotgun does not fit). After I had to explain to them what an AOW was, I was told that if they determine it not to be a shotgun by federal definition, they would consider it to be a destruction device because it is over 50 caliber. I did not push the issue any further. Perhaps the Super Shorty in 20GA would be legal. But IMHO, not worth the fight.

 

So, it is an AOW by Federal standards and by the definition set forth by the New Jersey State legislature, but the NJSP considers it a shotgun...must be nice to get to decide what the law is on a whim.

 

I do disagree with it not being worth the fight as the NJSP should not be making up the law as they go along no matter what it concerns. As soon as I can start a letter with something other than "Dear Douchebags..." I will have to write them a letter asking why they feel they can make up laws.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

NJSP making up laws has nothing to do with this. Its an AOW by fed law. If NJ suddently said they dont give a crap about what you buy, its still illegal under federal law without your AOW tax stamp and associated paperwork. (which you cant curently get in NJ)

[SpecialK 193]

NJSP making up laws has nothing to do with this. Its an AOW by fed law. If NJ suddently said they dont give a crap about what you buy, its still illegal under federal law without your AOW tax stamp and associated paperwork. (which you cant curently get in NJ)

 

AOW's are legal in NJ with the tax stamp.

[david8613 69]

What this tax stamp, please explain, and who is the njsp?

[SpecialK 193]

What this tax stamp, please explain, and who is the njsp?

 

Basically the federal government put a tax on certain items like machine guns, so to own one of these you need to buy what is called a tax stamp to legally own it. Google NFA tax stamp for more info. NFA mean National Firearms Act fyi. NJSP means New Jersey State Police.

[david8613 69]

Thanks, let me guess those tax stamps are not cheap?

[bbk 188]

AOW tax stamps are only $5 too... compared to the $200 for other NFA items.

And I'm with PK90 and SpecialK, its ultimately just not worth it at the end unless you have a superior court judge who can sign off on such paperwork as an uncle or godfather.

[david8613 69]

I had a Federally approved Mossberg AOW in 12GA (pistol grip shotgun with 14" barrel) and was told by the NJSP that it was not legal here, because they considered it a shotgun (even though the definition of a shotgun does not fit). After I had to explain to them what an AOW was, I was told that if they determine it not to be a shotgun by federal definition, they would consider it to be a destruction device because it is over 50 caliber. I did not push the issue any further. Perhaps the Super Shorty in 20GA would be legal. But IMHO, not worth the fight.

 

 

im not trying to kick a dead horse, but please explain "considered destruction device it is over 50 cal." i never heard of that rule, it sounds vague. im mean a regular shotguns shoot the same type of shells as the super shorty and its not a destruction device?