Airsoft

[deviated rationality 4]

Airsoft is a touchy, if not shady subject in NJ. I know tons of people that play it, and those of us who play airsoft and own real steel (what airsofters call actual guns) are generally very on edge about some (most) of the players. Especially those of us who have LE/MIL experience. That being said, my question to you all is this:

 

With your knowledge of the sport and what it entails, what is your general opinion on it and what experience have you had with it? The reason I ask is because the topic came up and through my own personal experience Airsoft is a very misunderstood sport.

 

If you have questions about it, please post them or PM me, and I will be glad to help. After a few days or a week of reading/answering posts, I will post another topic about airsoft that I hope will show you guys some of the stronger points of airsoft that you may be very interested in.

[bbk 188]

I'll discuss it from the training-aide perspective. I think it can serve as a great training aide for those who don't have access to MILES or simunitions or kill house.

My old unit tested out airsoft for a STX, and we found about its fallacies there, which is that it creates training scars-- which I'm sure you're aware of DR (deviated rationality). The biggest one being hiding behind what would normally only be concealment and not cover. Other things, and this was for safety/liability reasons, was having to wear a full mask that didn't really allow us to utilize other duty equipment properly. At that point, we might as well have gone MOPP 4 because it felt like I was trying to do movements with an M40.

Now, here's the ultimate caveat of why I think most people don't really care for airsoft... most people don't need this type of training, hence don't take it seriously. The average citizen believes that instead of devoting resources towards mil sims and the sort, they could take home defense courses with barricades and shoot their actual HD firearm/pistol. That's not to say that there isn't worth in knowing squad-element tactics either-- but with time and financial restraints, it seems that most people would address primary concerns (like being proficient in the home, or when they CCW).

[vladtepes 1,060]

The realism of the "guns" is cool.. the ability to train with something similar again pretty cool.. the downside to me would be the lack of ability to "mark" a target or even feel you have been hit through some heavier clothing in colder seasons.. I can see the "fun" aspect of it but the lack of ability to score hits makes it a deal breaker for me when considering it a serious training aid.. I think that paintball while generally unrealistic when compared to actual "guns" is still better due to being able to score hits.... If you are training to neutralize targets having a paintball marker that marks a hit to me offers a greater advantage over something that may feel real but just has you randomly firing away not knowing if you are hit.. or if you are hitting the target..

 

just my 2 cents..

[bbk 188]

My experience with this type of training was never necessarily about the actual engagement with the target. Instead how we managed to get to that objective, how we reacted once making contact, and egress. That's the reason why I preferred MILES or, heck, an empty rifle because this type of training is not about shooting itself (that's what a static range or kill house is for).

Tactics as a whole are about movement really. Take for example, cheap training you can do around the house to practice HD scenarios might be just using a flashlight or water gun/nerf gun. In my experience, the same applied in the field, even with more people.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, vladtepes, in fact you're probably right. Its just that in application of airsoft as a training aide, we're talking about two different things.

 

As to add to my initial post. I think the same can be done when just hiking around with friends (or by yourself), without necessarily adding in the element/resources of airsoft. Maybe that's the reason why I'd rather put that money towards the real deal, and practice movements as a group and in my house for free, even without said resources.

[vladtepes 1,060]

My experience with this type of training was never necessarily about the actual engagement with the target. Instead how we managed to get to that objective, how we reacted once making contact, and egress. That's the reason why I preferred MILES or, heck, an empty rifle because this type of training is not about shooting itself (that's what a static range or kill house is for).

Tactics as a whole are about movement really. Take for example, cheap training you can do around the house to practice HD scenarios might be just using a flashlight or water gun/nerf gun. In my experience, the same applied in the field, even with more people.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, vladtepes, in fact you're probably right. Its just that in application of airsoft as a training aide, we're talking about two different things.

 

As to add to my initial post. I think the same can be done when just hiking around with friends (or by yourself), without necessarily adding in the element/resources of airsoft. Maybe that's the reason why I'd rather put that money towards the real deal, and practice movements as a group and in my house for free, even without said resources.

 

 

your points are all valid.. and even offer some things I had not considered.. but as you pointed out.. if I were going to practice something like movement.. You could do it just as simply with an unloaded cleared firearm.. when I read "airsoft as training" I was thinking force on force.. and in that capacity I think it lacks, because the force is so mild.. not to say nothing could be learned from it.. there is always opportunity to learn.. I just view airsoft more as "fun" than "training" but I guess anything that has you moving and shooting, IS training to some degree..

[vjf915 456]

I think that one of the benefits of airsoft is being able to practice shooting while moving. Actions such as shooting, mag changes, possibly changing weapons fast.....can all be much harder to do while moving AND keeping track of the terrain, and keeping track of your target who is also moving. That scenario is WAY different and much more complicated than simply standing static at a range, and shooting at a paper target. Even if you cant count the hits, I definitely see how airsoft can help give at least a mediocre experience.

[KpdPipes 388]

your points are all valid.. and even offer some things I had not considered.. but as you pointed out.. if I were going to practice something like movement.. You could do it just as simply with an unloaded cleared firearm.. when I read "airsoft as training" I was thinking force on force.. and in that capacity I think it lacks, because the force is so mild.. not to say nothing could be learned from it.. there is always opportunity to learn.. I just view airsoft more as "fun" than "training" but I guess anything that has you moving and shooting, IS training to some degree..

 

 

BAD IDEA....there are dozens of training accidents every year with "Unloaded,Cleared Firearms" UNLESS you are using a plastic training barrel, or a chamber blocker, you are asking for serious problems. the ONLY time we use cleared weapons for training, is when we have people at the door of the facility LITERALLY Searchign everyone who enters to ensure there is live ammunition on thier person. Weapons are cleared in the parking lot, and all ammo is secured. if you leave for any reason, you get searched again before you come back in.... I argued for years to get the Surefire barrels, but it was nixed because of too many different agencies with different weapons involved.

[KpdPipes 388]

As far as Airsoft..it has it's place in both training, and in Liesure..the problem you find with it is when people NOT involved stumble onto a group playing..thats when the "Men with machinegun" calls start rolling in. Plus, Much as with Paitball, you ALWAYS get the guys who decide it might be fun to shoot up the neighborhood..which is how things get restricted.

[vjf915 456]

Plus, Much as with Paitball, you ALWAYS get the guys who decide it might be fun to shoot up the neighborhood..which is how things get restricted.

Or when people play without being responsible....such as without masks or freezing the paintballs. Then it gives paintball the image of being dangerous because some idiot got his eye shot out. Paintball is in fact the safest extreme sport, and one of the safest sports overall when played properly.

[Danno 127]

Airsoft is a touchy, if not shady subject in NJ. I know tons of people that play it, and those of us who play airsoft and own real steel (what airsofters call actual guns) are generally very on edge about some (most) of the players. Especially those of us who have LE/MIL experience. That being said, my question to you all is this:

 

With your knowledge of the sport and what it entails, what is your general opinion on it and what experience have you had with it? The reason I ask is because the topic came up and through my own personal experience Airsoft is a very misunderstood sport.

 

If you have questions about it, please post them or PM me, and I will be glad to help. After a few days or a week of reading/answering posts, I will post another topic about airsoft that I hope will show you guys some of the stronger points of airsoft that you may be very interested in.

 

 

Sport? Really?

[tommy3rd 132]

Sport? Really?

It's a competition with some set of rules of engagement, so it does fall under the definition. Kinda like speed walking. LOL

[ronhonda 86]

I think that one of the benefits of airsoft is being able to practice shooting while moving. Actions such as shooting, mag changes, possibly changing weapons fast.....can all be much harder to do while moving AND keeping track of the terrain, and keeping track of your target who is also moving. That scenario is WAY different and much more complicated than simply standing static at a range, and shooting at a paper target. Even if you cant count the hits, I definitely see how airsoft can help give at least a mediocre experience.

If you want to practice shooting while moving, why don't you give IDPA or USPSA a try. IDPA tends to be more "tactical" while USPSA more practical. You will learn how to shoot while moving, with the added stress of being a timed event. There are several clubs in NJ that hold matches. Come down and check it out. By no means is this to be considered training, but it does teach the shooter a thing or two.

[Jon 264]

Sport? Really?

 

If Golf is considered a sport...

[ronhonda 86]

If Golf is considered a sport...

Anything with some set of rules, an objective, and a winner and loser I guess you can call it a sport.

[vjf915 456]

If you want to practice shooting while moving, why don't you give IDPA or USPSA a try. IDPA tends to be more "tactical" while USPSA more practical. You will learn how to shoot while moving, with the added stress of being a timed event. There are several clubs in NJ that hold matches. Come down and check it out. By no means is this to be considered training, but it does teach the shooter a thing or two.

DEFINITELY something I would like to get into.......sometime in the future when I have the funds. But as I stated, I think that having to keep track of the terrain you are on, while also keeping track of a moving target is A LOT to multi-task at the same time. This is where I think airsoft, or even paintball, come in handy. I have played paintball for a long time, and even walking while trying to maintain a target is a complicated task. I do agree with you, those competitions would give experience for moving and shooting under stress.

[KpdPipes 388]

Or when people play without being responsible....such as without masks or freezing the paintballs. Then it gives paintball the image of being dangerous because some idiot got his eye shot out. Paintball is in fact the safest extreme sport, and one of the safest sports overall when played properly.

I agree.. we were always HYPER about safety when we played.. funny thing I was just in a paintball shop today looking around, and I have to say i was VERY impressed with hos much technology has advnaced in the 10-12 years since the last time I played.. Everything seems to be Electronic now, and there was a line of markers by a company called "BT" that looked to eb based on Tippman designes, but enhances to look like AR's and MP-5's Pricy, but still cool.

[FFDP82 4]

I should also add that wearing not only a mask but also a cup/jock strap while playing paintball is a good idea. I used to wear two winter coats as body armor, knee pads and a face mask for protection. Well one of my opponents accidentally found a chink in my armor. Let me tell you, a paintball to the nuts is not a very good feeling.

[vjf915 456]

I agree.. we were always HYPER about safety when we played.. funny thing I was just in a paintball shop today looking around, and I have to say i was VERY impressed with hos much technology has advnaced in the 10-12 years since the last time I played.. Everything seems to be Electronic now, and there was a line of markers by a company called "BT" that looked to eb based on Tippman designes, but enhances to look like AR's and MP-5's Pricy, but still cool.

I always nit picked about safety as well, telling people to keep the barrel bags on or masks down until they got into a safe zone. And yes, the technology is amazing......kind of. The guns are FAST, and if players do not abide by the FPS regulations, you can get hurt. I dont rely on fast guns, because shooting more than 2-3 BPS is simply a waste, and some out there shoot 10+bps. If 2-3bps doesnt hit your target, then anything more than that wont either.

 

And I would not trust BT for a gun, they are definitely a Tippmann knockoff. I would definitely go with a Tippmann if you are looking for a realistic looking gun and want reliability.

 

I should also add that wearing not only a mask but also a cup/jock strap while playing paintball is a good idea. I used to wear two winter coats as body armor, knee pads and a face mask for protection. Well one of my opponents accidentally found a chink in my armor. Let me tell you, a paintball to the nuts is not a very good feeling.

I could never wear anything like that, I would die from heat exhaustion. It would also slow me down. I wear cleats, boxer briefs, camo pants, and a very lightweight short sleeve under armor shirt (and obviously a mask). If I wear anything more than that, I get slowed down. But trust me, once you get more experienced and learn how the angles work and how to hide your body, 95% of the hits you will take will be on your mask.

[deviated rationality 4]

Most of your comments are well founded and what Im looking for. Ill address each separately.

 

Airsoft as a sport

 

Airsoft is considered an extreme sport by many (I classify extreme differently, so to me it's just a sport) and rightfully so. I simply consider it a Combative Sport. In all games, you have 2 or more teams competing for territory and usually points. Like military operations, there are objectives, FOBS, and command structure (of some sort.) Games usually last 4-6 hours long, with some breaks in between occasionally depending on weather conditions and safety conditions. Some times there are skirmish games which last between 30-60 minutes, structured in much the same way as paintball. In both cases airsoft can get very intense and is not for some people.

 

So how do you know if you hit someone (or more importantly, if you are hit)?

 

It is normally quite simple. Most of the time you can feel when you are hit. When you are hit, you call yourself out, yelling "HIT!" 3 or 4 times, pulling out and waving a Red Rag (called a dead rag). This signifies you were indeed hit. This system is based off of an honor system. Occasionally you come across people who don't call their hits, and rarely its because they are cheating. Most of the time they simply don't feel or hear the hit. The ones that are cheaters however generally get weeded out over a few games.

Keep in mind paintball is basically the same, after a few rounds all you have to do is either wipe it off or not call hits, because you are covered in hits all over.

Airsoft as a Training Tool

Airsoft can serve as an excellent tool for training. Airsoft guns are not nearly as accurate as real guns, but, in the short range ( <75 feet) it's usually pretty on target. That said, real guns can shoot much farther and more accurately. So, as far as long range is concerned, airsoft is not very effective.

 

Combat training is effective though, especially with force on force. Airsoft allows you to work safely as a team and learn tactics. Working as a team with real guns can save lives, and without enough experience together, this can make or break a team. That said, airsoft guns are very accurate in detail, some of them weigh practically the same weight. So in that respect, you can train with a group, squad, or team and get used to how you all work together.

 

It is also extremely effective for FTX or even shoot houses for CQB. Close range the only real difference when firing is the recoil and mag size. Out side of that, it is much cheaper and safer over all.

 

Safety

For the most part, airsoft is extremely safe. There are a few exceptions, as no sport is without risk. Most people wear a facemask or baklava, sometimes a shemagh over their face. This prevents most damage that can result from being shot in the face. But there are generally other hazards as well, since most games are played in the woods or inside buildings, which have their own dangers. That said, you typically dont see people buying all kinds of padding and protective gear. At most you will see full seal goggles, gloves, knee/elbow pads, and occasionally helmets.

 

As far as MILES goes, or any laser system, anything can stop the path of a laser, and you have to hit the sensors to get a hit. My experiences with those types of systems came off as a waste of money.

 

Simunition on the other hand is what I would prefer of all, but that isn't really feasible or possible for civilians (as far as I know)

[deviated rationality 4]

If you want to practice shooting while moving, why don't you give IDPA or USPSA a try. IDPA tends to be more "tactical" while USPSA more practical. You will learn how to shoot while moving, with the added stress of being a timed event. There are several clubs in NJ that hold matches. Come down and check it out. By no means is this to be considered training, but it does teach the shooter a thing or two.

 

Im going to be looking into these within the next few weeks, but since you dont have human targets to compete against, it misses that crucial part of the training that airsoft and paintball fill.

[ronhonda 86]

Realistically, what are you looking to get out of this? There are plenty of different courses you can take from quality instructors to learn all of the things that you want. But where will you be utilizing the skills learned in the "real world"?

Unless of course you're military/leo where these skills can save your and the life of others.

[deviated rationality 4]

Realistically, what are you looking to get out of this? There are plenty of different courses you can take from quality instructors to learn all of the things that you want. But where will you be utilizing the skills learned in the "real world"?

Unless of course you're military/leo where these skills can save your and the life of others.

 

Was Military, planning on going LEO. Outside of that, "Its better to have and not need than it is to need and not have."

[ronhonda 86]

Was Military, planning on going LEO. Outside of that, "Its better to have and not need than it is to need and not have."

OK,

But outside of a military/leo situation, when are you honestly going to be with your "team", and your training is going to be called upon?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

OK,

But outside of a military/leo situation, when are you honestly going to be with your "team", and your training is going to be called upon?

 

DUH! For when the zombies come!

[ronhonda 86]

DUH! For when the zombies come!

No comment on Zombies or the SHTF crowd.

[deviated rationality 4]

OK,

But outside of a military/leo situation, when are you honestly going to be with your "team", and your training is going to be called upon?

 

More than likely, no. Ideally, yes. That being said, why avoid something just because the chances are that we wont be together? The more we do this, the more we will run into people who are prepared, instead of a liability in the off chance (what little it may be) you do need a team/squad. Besides, everything is always more fun with more people, and making friends.

[bbk 188]

I'm in agreement with ronhonda. Even as a person who is active with preparedness and has an infatuation with zombie annihilation, I don't see the practical applications of airsoft (aside from playing it for "fun").

Now, by doing things like airsoft or paintball, and introducing squad tactics can be fun and build, more importantly, esprit de corps and camaraderie amongst a close knit group that has to deal with each other (group of friends, colleagues, peers, etc). But I wouldn't expect people to retain the knowledge, and be able to put it into action if ever called upon.

 

I can respect airsofters, but I'd rather run a course or get into competition shooting.

[vjf915 456]

You dont even need to use airsoft for "squad" tactics. You could easily use airsoft for a simulated experience of CCW and protecting yourself. You could use it for the experience of clearing a room or even something as big as a house. You like zombies, you could even set up a zombie demonstration where you have 5 friends slowly cornering you, and you have to head shot all of them. The possibilities of airsoft are as endless as any of the possibilities that you can conjure up in your head to happen with REAL firearms....and you can do it SAFELY. Shoot....Im even considering getting an airsoft gun now

[deviated rationality 4]

Airsoft isn't for everyone. And I'm not here to try to "convert" or "recruit" people for airsoft. I just see a LOT of misunderstanding with it, and I wanted to give those who have zero experience with airsoft a more clear picture. Its applications are useful, which is why MIL/LEO all over the country are all going to it. But, like I said, it's not for everyone.

 

That said you actually DO retain the training used in airsoft. Training for tactics, teamwork, and handling random situations is not the same with airsoft, because you can actually have live targets that move and resist. Can't do that with real bullets for training, and Simunition isn't cheap.

 

But again, this thread wasn't to convert or recruit. It was to give a clear picture and answer any questions some of you might have.

[ronhonda 86]

I am no expert, but from my experience in competitive shooting, the best plans are more often than not forgotten when the buzzer goes off. So I need to improvise and try to execute a new plan on the go. As far as training for CCW, I hope that I never run into a situation where I need to defend myself or my loved ones from an armed bad guy. If it does, I wish I can be at home because in the good ole' state of NJ, I can't carry (for now legally at least)a firearm for protection. And how can you train for random situations? I am not trying to call you out on this, but I see airsoft as just a game.