S 2190

[Guest megaman]

So Madden is now going to meet with ANJRPC/NRA. They are looking to exclude holders of HPP's from OGAM. This is good news.

The senator is seeing the writing on the wall, and is aware that our permitting system is illegal based on Heller.

The lawsuit from the SAF will be decided as early as 3/11 trust me on that one folks.

We are having some positive momentum in NJ.

Dont bash the HPP card. You dont need to apply for PPP's anymore. Your HPP will very soon become a carry license as NJ will have to become shall issue. There is no way around it.

[matty 810]

Lots of questions.....what if I want to buy handguns, but don't care about carry? Would I still have to go thru whatever extra hoops there will be for the HPP? Or does it default back to the 'old' P2P? Among others, like overhead for two systems on the PDs and NJSP, reciprocity, training requirements if its to be a carry permit (I don't see an unrestricted carry permit in NJs future, probably more along the lines of Texas or SC at a minimum, with mandatory training & range time. What if this tries to introduce an 'approved handguns' list, like MA and CA?

I don't trust him, he's an NJ pol-

[vjf915 456]

Thank yoooouuuuuu for opening another thread.....

 

Really this is good new that he is meeting, but I really don't think we should get our hopes up so quickly. Maybe he does see the writing on the wall, but that doesn't mean that he will cater to our every wish. Maybe he is just trying to throw a bone out there to keep us occupied for a while.

[LorenzoS 100]

The SAF efforts are indeed having positive impact. The gun control advocates are now offering concessions on less important administrative and convenience issues in the hope that they will avoid meaningful change. This is similar to recent proposed changes in NYC.

 

I am glad for the minor administrative improvements offered but the real source of optimism is that they are beginning to realize they are now on the defensive. We should keep up the pressure and not be grateful for small handouts.

[BRN169 6]

I smell fear... I don't think they should be able to get away this easy. If the intent is to add one single process, form or fee we need a few things back this time around... They are holding up a rotten carrot and the sheep so busy saying baa, look at the carrot baa, they can't see it's rotten... If the ANJRPC or NRA get behind this without a number of other concessions I for one am going to be pissed-off...

[GoNRA 12]

According to the email, you will still need a purchaser permit for private transfers. The card I guess would just make it better for dealer sales.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Why again do we need a separate card?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm glad to see anything that will make handgun purchasing less bureaucratic, but why can't this be done with our existing FID cards? If they are going to insist on registering handguns, that form could be filled out at the time of purchase like a COE.

 

I still don't like the idea of having to apply ahead of time to get PP's for FTF (non FFL) sales. This could also be done with a form that would then be handed over to the police when the transfer is complete (again if they insist on registration).

 

I hope ANJRPC/NRA can get these changes made.

[BRN169 6]

Why again do we need a separate card?

 

Don't get me wrong I'm glad to see anything that will make handgun purchasing less bureaucratic, but why can't this be done with our existing FID cards? If they are going to insist on registering handguns, that form could be filled out at the time of purchase like a COE.

 

I still don't like the idea of having to apply ahead of time to get PP's for FTF (non FFL) sales. This could also be done with a form that would then be handed over to the police when the transfer is complete (again if they insist on registration).

 

I hope ANJRPC/NRA can get these changes made.

 

News flash, NJ has been registering handgun purchases since the '60s with the PPP system and all long guns and handguns since they started running the NICS checks back in the '90. The FBI is required to perform the check free of charge yet NJ is a point of contact state that runs the checks for a $15 fee. You don't think they retain a copy of ALL the dealer transfers? Come on...

[vjf915 456]

We should keep up the pressure and not be grateful for small handouts.

I don't think this can be stressed enough. If this actually IS a result of the lawsuit, then the pressure should be put on even MORE.

[tbtrout 141]

I don't think this can be stressed enough. If this actually IS a result of the lawsuit, then the pressure should be put on even MORE.

ABSOLUTELY

[vjf915 456]

The FBI is required to perform the check free of charge yet NJ is a point of contact state that runs the checks for a $15 fee.

Which is because the FFL calls NJ who in turn contacts the FBI. It is a totally messed up situation. Ridiculous, unconstitutional, and just plain infuriating. But again, I will take this over what we have now. It IS a step in the right direction, albeit a SMALL step in a LONG journey.

[Guest megaman]

I smell fear... I don't think they should be able to get away this easy. If the intent is to add one single process, form or fee we need a few things back this time around... They are holding up a rotten carrot and the sheep so busy saying baa, look at the carrot baa, they can't see it's rotten... If the ANJRPC or NRA get behind this without a number of other concessions I for one am going to be pissed-off...

 

 

Remember, this is far from over. The SAF case will be decided on the legal interpretation of the law, no discovery, just a federal judge deciding if NJ CCW is illegal. Most likely it is, I would say its more than half in our favor here. This case will go down as follows. By the end of Jan NJ will ask court to dismiss. The parties will then oppose each other and the judge will decide, by march.

 

The way the law is written, it leaves a lot in the purview of the Judge. The Judge isn't supposed to be deciding such things in general, but especially when it comes to rights outlined in the Constitution. If they said that you had to have two people vouch for you before you could vote or speak at a protest - it wouldn't go over very well.

 

So I think the chances are better than even. That being said, it's NJ and a Judge that was appointed by Clinton - so you never know.

 

I'm guessing that no matter what the decision, NJ is going to have to change the current laws and become a "shall issue" State. That doesn't stop them from making the requirements overly burdensome though.

Here is the proposal that was submitted

[Guest megaman]

To me the fact that so many people are purchasing handguns that the NJSP is BURDENED with the process is a good thing...

The biggest dam will only hold water back for so long if there is no outlet. This is a small outlet.

The problem is the wave is still on its way and the dam is starting to crack a bit...

[vjf915 456]

I'm guessing that no matter what the decision, NJ is going to have to change the current laws and become a "shall issue" State.

I could say it a million times.....this is my main concern. I AM a firearms enthusiast, I AM here to learn, I WILL be collecting and shooting firearms for the rest of my life as a hobby. But the current situation, and where we live just absolutely frightens me. The fact that an armed criminal could pop up at any moment (my girl lives in Trenton, these are not irrational fears) and I would be defenseless is just a scary thought.

[Guest megaman]

News flash, NJ has been registering handgun purchases since the '60s with the PPP system and all long guns and handguns since they started running the NICS checks back in the '90. The FBI is required to perform the check free of charge yet NJ is a point of contact state that runs the checks for a $15 fee. You don't think they retain a copy of ALL the dealer transfers? Come on...

 

 

Dont forget you pay a tax on that 15$ fee...that has to be illegal...

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

So Madden is now going to meet with ANJRPC/NRA. They are looking to exclude holders of HPP's from OGAM. This is good news.

The senator is seeing the writing on the wall, and is aware that our permitting system is illegal based on Heller.

The lawsuit from the SAF will be decided as early as 3/11 trust me on that one folks.

We are having some positive momentum in NJ.

Dont bash the HPP card. You dont need to apply for PPP's anymore. Your HPP will very soon become a carry license as NJ will have to become shall issue. There is no way around it.

 

What kind of hoops are they gonna make us jump through in order to obtain this HPP Card? I mean if you have to *prove your of good character*, how would be any different from having a *justifiable need* for NJ CCW?

[NicePants 58]

What kind of hoops are they gonna make us jump through in order to obtain this HPP Card? I mean if you have to *prove your of good character*, how would be any different from having a *justifiable need* for NJ CCW?

 

Proving "good character" should be just as easy as "take a look at my goddamn spotless criminal record."

[unclenunzie 3]

Proving "good character" should be just as easy as "take a look at my goddamn spotless criminal record."

 

Amazing how an anvil hanging above the head can inject clarity and common sense into the thinking. Though as has been said before, undefined "good character" is the same BS NJ is being sued about.

 

Constitutional issues aside for the moment, I'd like to see the new HPID grandfathered to people who have pinks and a valid FPID. If they want to reduce administrative costs, visiting your local PD with a set of these ought to check off "approved" for issuance, period. Let the DMV machinery crank them out but mail/deliver them to the local PD, where you can pick it up. The PD could then compare your face to the photos in driver license and HPID so they feel safe to issue.

[joejaxx 38]

Proving "good character" should be just as easy as "take a look at my goddamn spotless criminal record."

 

HAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

+1000000000000000000

[BRN169 6]

Remember, this is far from over. The SAF case will be decided on the legal interpretation of the law, no discovery, just a federal judge deciding if NJ CCW is illegal. Most likely it is, I would say its more than half in our favor here. This case will go down as follows. By the end of Jan NJ will ask court to dismiss. The parties will then oppose each other and the judge will decide, by march.

 

The way the law is written, it leaves a lot in the purview of the Judge. The Judge isn't supposed to be deciding such things in general, but especially when it comes to rights outlined in the Constitution. If they said that you had to have two people vouch for you before you could vote or speak at a protest - it wouldn't go over very well.

 

So I think the chances are better than even. That being said, it's NJ and a Judge that was appointed by Clinton - so you never know.

 

I'm guessing that no matter what the decision, NJ is going to have to change the current laws and become a "shall issue" State. That doesn't stop them from making the requirements overly burdensome though.

Here is the proposal that was submitted

 

This may be the case however it is a moot point. No matter which side wins in the circuit court the other is inevitably going to appeal to the SCOTUS and nothing will change in the interim pending their decision...

 

The SAF isn't going to move any of the cases it loses to the SCOTUS until all of the various circuit court decisions are in because they are going to look for the weakest ruling to bring to the SCOTUS. This is easy a two year process, expect a final decision circa end of June 2012...

 

They know they are toast and are looking to thow us a bone to shut us up. That is all fair and good but they can keep the little pheasant sized wishbone they are offering I want something more like a humerus of a Titanosaur...

 

I would suggest now is the time to kick them, they are on the ropes and know they have a problem. I would be looking to challenge everything from all angles. They are worried about a budget short fall yet are they willing to fight off challenges to several unconstitutional laws at once. Low hanging fruit would be the hollow point ban, the assault weapon ban (specifically the M1 Carbine which is on the C&R list) the pistol permit system, smart guns. The list goes on.

[djg0770 481]

I don't think this can be stressed enough. If this actually IS a result of the lawsuit, then the pressure should be put on even MORE.

 

When you're negotiating from a position of strength, you don't back down.

 

Or, in common English: When you got their nuts in a vise, squeeze harder.

[BRN169 6]

Amazing how an anvil hanging above the head can inject clarity and common sense into the thinking. Though as has been said before, undefined "good character" is the same BS NJ is being sued about.

 

Constitutional issues aside for the moment, I'd like to see the new HPID grandfathered to people who have pinks and a valid FPID. If they want to reduce administrative costs, visiting your local PD with a set of these ought to check off "approved" for issuance, period. Let the DMV machinery crank them out but mail/deliver them to the local PD, where you can pick it up. The PD could then compare your face to the photos in driver license and HPID so they feel safe to issue.

 

The thing I don't understand is the NICS check in NJ is a freakin' 900 number that bills $15 to your phone bill. Why can't you just require anyone selling a gun to use the system to do a check on the purchaser at the time of sale... It is not like the FBI system that is standardized for FFLs only, it is run by the damned state they can change their process to allow for individual sales and everyone would be happy. Make it a crime to sell a gun to anyone without running the check and bingo everyone has a background check, no one is hastled with BS paper work, the police can go back to finding real criminals and everyone is happy... That will never happen though, it makes too much sense.

[theRU 33]

Another card, another fee, more hoops...i dont know about this..especially if they come up with some rediculous $$$$ amount for the fees.

[Genewarper111 18]

People. Stop whining. This HPID card will be huge. Put on your best smile and get in line.

 

G

[BRN169 6]

People. Stop whining. This HPID card will be huge. Put on your best smile and get in line.

 

G

 

Baa

[theRU 33]

People. Stop whining. This HPID card will be huge. Put on your best smile and get in line.

 

G

 

Isn't that what they said when they passed obamacare? no thanks

[ianargent 7]

The "good character" line appears in the rules for issueing the FID and PPP; it's not new. Racist, but not new. It's what got that guy from ScotchPlains who slammed a door loudly at his ex-wife and made disparaging remarks about her.

[BigHayden 77]

The Madden bill is a step in the right direction, but it isn't a goal. Our goal is the eliminate the FPID, HPP, HPID, OGAM, AWB, HP restrictions, BB gun as firearm definition, and to have constitutional carry. Those are our goals. We will achieve these goals by keeping up the pressure, as others have said, but also by recognizing when something is a step in the right direction. This HPID bill is a step in the right direction, but we should not be satisfied once it passes.

 

I've said it before, we need to act like the anti's do whenever they get a bill passed. Before the ink is even dry, we come out and say we know this doesn't fix anything, but it's a good first step.

[kenw 293]

If all they wanted to do was eliminate the need for a PPP to buy from an FFL, all they would have to do is say that we no longer need a PPP to buy from an FFL. A simple and cost-free revision to existing law.

 

They wouldn't need a new card, a new system, or a new requirement. You go to a gun shop with your current FID card and your Driver's License, clear NICS, plop down your cash, and go home with a gun.

 

Much simpler than what they're proposing now to accomplish the same thing. If it was just about money, they would just add a renewal requirement to the current card.

 

This new proposal is about something else. It may be that this is the beginning of a CC permitting system, which would be good. The coincidental timing with the Van Drew CCW bills suggests that this may be the case, and that the state is starting the gears turning to comply with an expected court decision against the current laws.

 

In any case, this is a step in the right direction towards getting some of our rights back, and of reducing the ridiculous and expensive barriers to entry for anyone in NJ who wants to legally own a gun. The NRA piece was badly researched and written, and frankly, I'm not surprised.

 

Until we possibly learn that there's some hidden agenda, something that will further erode our rights, something that will further raise the barriers to ownership, we should do everything we can to support this, and to support anyone who supports it.

 

And yeah, it doesn't fix anything else, and we should be writing editorials and letters to newspapers and to anyone else who will listen, that explain that while this is a tiny first step in the right direction, we will continue to move forward until all of the capricious restrictions and exclusions are eliminated, and until NJ firearms laws are rewritten in such a way as to decriminalize the legal ownership of firearms, except through badly considered, overly specific and narrowly stated exceptions and exclusions.

 

It's time NJ caught up with the rest of the country, and then we can stop saying things like "free states", and "you can do that in America, but not in NJ". Then we will have won.

[vladtepes 1,060]

If all they wanted to do was eliminate the need for a PPP to buy from an FFL, all they would have to do is say that we no longer need a PPP to buy from an FFL. A simple and cost-free revision to existing law.

 

They wouldn't need a new card, a new system, or a new requirement. You go to a gun shop with your current FID card and your Driver's License, clear NICS, plop down your cash, and go home with a gun.

 

Much simpler than what they're proposing now to accomplish the same thing. If it was just about money, they would just add a renewal requirement to the current card.

 

This new proposal is about something else. It may be that this is the beginning of a CC permitting system, which would be good. The coincidental timing with the Van Drew CCW bills suggests that this may be the case, and that the state is starting the gears turning to comply with an expected court decision against the current laws.

 

In any case, this is a step in the right direction towards getting some of our rights back, and of reducing the ridiculous and expensive barriers to entry for anyone in NJ who wants to legally own a gun. The NRA piece was badly researched and written, and frankly, I'm not surprised.

 

Until we possibly learn that there's some hidden agenda, something that will further erode our rights, something that will further raise the barriers to ownership, we should do everything we can to support this, and to support anyone who supports it.

 

And yeah, it doesn't fix anything else, and we should be writing editorials and letters to newspapers and to anyone else who will listen, that explain that while this is a tiny first step in the right direction, we will continue to move forward until all of the capricious restrictions and exclusions are eliminated, and until NJ firearms laws are rewritten in such a way as to decriminalize the legal ownership of firearms, except through badly considered, overly specific and narrowly stated exceptions and exclusions.

 

It's time NJ caught up with the rest of the country, and then we can stop saying things like "free states", and "you can do that in America, but not in NJ". Then we will have won.

 

 

apparently you read into this the same way I do...

 

+1