Challenging NRA Instructor re: NJ Firearms Laws (And PA)

[Daedalus 19]

My son and I attended an NRA Basic Pistol Shooting class yesterday, given by an NRA instructor. The discussion wandered into some specifics of NJ and PA Firearms Laws and Regulations. There were several areas that I am fairly certain in which he was providing invalid information. I challenged him on a couple of them but lest the rest slide as he is the instructor and I am the student. He was adamant that he is right and referenced Nappen's book as the source. I do not have Nappen's book but spent quite a bit of time researching the laws and regulations online using the 'official' NJ websites whenever possible. I would appreciate feedback from others and, where possible, cite the appropriate law of regulation if known:

 

Listed below are the subjects with his presentation followed by my understanding.

 

1. [instructor] A person moving from another state who legally purchased firearms (handguns or long guns) prior to relocation to NJ is required to transfer those firearms to himself through an FFL in NJ. [student] No such law or regulation exists. You do not need to register, transfer or complete any paperwork for firearms legally brought into the state. Further, there is no requirement to to register any firearms legally owned prior to the FID and PPP system being put in place. All other laws pertaining to prohibited weapons are still applicable.

 

2. [instructor] There is a regulation or Law limiting the capacity of any shotgun to no more than three shells. [student] There is no limitation on shell capacity for a pump shotgun. Semi-Automatic shotguns are limited to a five shell capacity. Hunting regulations and laws are not part of the discussion.

 

3. [instructor] Anyone transporting a handgun (to a range, dealer, gunsmith, etc.) must have in his possession a copy of the handgun purchase permit assigning ownership of the gun ti him. [student] There is no such requirement. A good idea, but not a law or regulation.

 

4. [instructor] It is not legal for an NJ resident to open carry a handgun in PA. [student] It is legal for anyone to open carry in PA so long as they are legally qualified to posses the handgun.

 

5. [instructor] An individual with a concealed weapons license from another state (FL as example) cannot open carry a handgun in PA. Possession of a CWL license means that the individual can carry a concealed handgun in PA but not open carry. [student] Open carry as in number four above. Concealed carry OK with a FL CWL, as is open carry.

 

This guy was a good safety and handgun technique instructor; I learned a lot from him. I do, however, have serious reservations about the legal information he presented.

[Jon 264]

I agree with everything you challenged the Instructor with. Can you PM me what school(if any) the instructor teaches for?

[Babaganoosh 192]

Wait wait wait.... You can open carry in PA as long as you own the gun? So I could walk around with my beretta holstered?

[vladtepes 1,060]

where was this? I agree with everything you stated with one exception.. I was not aware that anyone could open carry in PA without a valid LTCF.. I know that some cities (philly) have different rules.. I mean simply in general... like in the middle of nowhere PA.. you are saying anyone could just open carry.. even a nonresident? as stated I was unaware..

[Jon 264]

IIRC yes, you can OC in PA with no permit provided there are no municipal regulations prohibiting it.

[Daedalus 19]

IIRC yes, you can OC in PA with no permit provided there are no municipal regulations prohibiting it.

 

That is also my understanding, Jon. Don't try it in Philly, a school, courthouse, etc.

[Jon 264]

That is also my understanding, Jon. Don't try it in Philly, a school, courthouse, etc.

 

To go one step further, you cannot carry a loaded handgun in PA in a vehicle without a concealed carry permit.

[vjf915 456]

OC is totally legal in PA as long as you obey the laws surrounding it. I know a guy who open carried an AK style pistol.

[Babaganoosh 192]

So you would have to eject the magazine everytime you get into your car?

[vladtepes 1,060]

So you would have to eject the magazine everytime you get into your car?

 

 

you would have to transport it per PA guidelines which if I recall is not that different from our laws...

[Dan 177]

I agree with your challenges. I just looked through Nappen's book on moving to NJ with firearms. This guy is seriously misquoting.

 

Site for PA open carry: http://paopencarry.org/

 

Pretty odd that you can't open carry in a car but can on the street. Also the site says if you have a CCW from PA or reciprocal state, you can open carry in a "city of the first class" i.e. Philly.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Also the site says if you have a CCW from PA or reciprocal state, you can open carry in a "city of the first class" i.e. Philly.

 

one of the main reasons I have my FL permit..

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

IIRC yes, you can OC in PA with no permit provided there are no municipal regulations prohibiting it.

 

 

There can be no "municipal regulations" - PA has pre-emption, only the state can make laws that deal with firearms. Open carry without any kind of permit or license is perfectly legal in PA (providing you are not disqualified from owning a firearm). However, you cannot open carry in a vehicle unless you have a PA LTCF or a CCW from a reciprocal state. Likewise for open carrying in Philadelphia - NOTE: This is not a municipal regulation, it is written into the PA Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) which has this separate regulation for "cities of the first class" - which is based on population with Philly being the only qualifying city.

 

Your challenges were all good.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Jon 264]

There can be no "municipal regulations" - PA has pre-emption, only the state can make laws that deal with firearms. Open carry without any kind of permit or license is perfectly legal in PA (providing you are not disqualified from owning a firearm). However, you cannot open carry in a vehicle unless you have a PA LTCF or a CCW from a reciprocal state. Likewise for open carrying in Philadelphia - NOTE: This is not a municipal regulation, it is written into the PA Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) which has this separate regulation for "cities of the first class" - which is based on population with Philly being the only qualifying city.

 

Your challenges were all good.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Thank you, Bob, for clarifying.

[bry@n 195]

Can you pm me the name of the scholl you went to?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I dont think that it should be PMd just post it.. others should be aware... I shoot at Atlantic county range and have taken several classes there.. they are really nice.. but I have debated some things with them.. and even provided information they were unaware of a few times.. every time I challenged what they said.. they were extremely receptive and listened and discussed.... they never once came off as know it all instructors..

[halbautomatisch 60]

While you are all correct about what was said about open carry in PA, from what I hear from PA people you will get harassed in PA by the cops in most non rural areas if you are carrying openly. Not going to go to jail, but may get taken down, disarmed at gun point and lectured in some urban/suburban areas.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Man - who was this NRA instructor so I can AVOID their class? Ugh.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

 

Pretty odd that you can't open carry in a car but can on the street. Also the site says if you have a CCW from PA or reciprocal state, you can open carry in a "city of the first class" i.e. Philly.

 

Correct me if im wrong but i believe there is no such thing as open carry in a car. A gun in a car constitutes being concealed....

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Man - who was this NRA instructor so I can AVOID their class? Ugh.

 

These are not classes designed to inform the public of the rules/laws and regulations. Take it for what its worth.. I too would be wary of such classes that can misinform, but its not his job to teach the laws, its his job to teach/train the class for it purpose. On the other hand he should not be teaching or clarifying the laws either, in all seriousness it's a very bad move on his part, its not part of the class and could get him in trouble.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

So you would have to eject the magazine everytime you get into your car?

I'm not certain about PA, but some states recognize the magazine as part of the gun, if the magazine is loaded the gun is loaded even if the gun is in the trunk locked with the mag locked in a separate container. I think CA follows this.

[mrjam2jab 9]

My son and I attended an NRA Basic Pistol Shooting class yesterday, given by an NRA instructor. The discussion wandered into some specifics of NJ and PA Firearms Laws and Regulations. There were several areas that I am fairly certain in which he was providing invalid information. I challenged him on a couple of them but lest the rest slide as he is the instructor and I am the student. He was adamant that he is right and referenced Nappen's book as the source. I do not have Nappen's book but spent quite a bit of time researching the laws and regulations online using the 'official' NJ websites whenever possible. I would appreciate feedback from others and, where possible, cite the appropriate law of regulation if known:

 

Listed below are the subjects with his presentation followed by my understanding.

 

1. [instructor] A person moving from another state who legally purchased firearms (handguns or long guns) prior to relocation to NJ is required to transfer those firearms to himself through an FFL in NJ. [student] No such law or regulation exists. You do not need to register, transfer or complete any paperwork for firearms legally brought into the state. Further, there is no requirement to to register any firearms legally owned prior to the FID and PPP system being put in place. All other laws pertaining to prohibited weapons are still applicable.

 

2. [instructor] There is a regulation or Law limiting the capacity of any shotgun to no more than three shells. [student] There is no limitation on shell capacity for a pump shotgun. Semi-Automatic shotguns are limited to a five shell capacity. Hunting regulations and laws are not part of the discussion.

 

3. [instructor] Anyone transporting a handgun (to a range, dealer, gunsmith, etc.) must have in his possession a copy of the handgun purchase permit assigning ownership of the gun ti him. [student] There is no such requirement. A good idea, but not a law or regulation.

 

4. [instructor] It is not legal for an NJ resident to open carry a handgun in PA. [student] It is legal for anyone to open carry in PA so long as they are legally qualified to posses the handgun.

 

5. [instructor] An individual with a concealed weapons license from another state (FL as example) cannot open carry a handgun in PA. Possession of a CWL license means that the individual can carry a concealed handgun in PA but not open carry. [student] Open carry as in number four above. Concealed carry OK with a FL CWL, as is open carry.

 

This guy was a good safety and handgun technique instructor; I learned a lot from him. I do, however, have serious reservations about the legal information he presented.

 

As already mentioned...NRA Basic classes are not "state specific"...I don't believe the instructor is able diverge from the syllabus to give law info? Perhaps another instructor could clarify this?

 

Wait wait wait.... You can open carry in PA as long as you own the gun? So I could walk around with my beretta holstered?

 

You dont even have to own the gun...just not be disqualified from possessing one.

 

where was this? I agree with everything you stated with one exception.. I was not aware that anyone could open carry in PA without a valid LTCF.. I know that some cities (philly) have different rules.. I mean simply in general... like in the middle of nowhere PA.. you are saying anyone could just open carry.. even a nonresident? as stated I was unaware..

 

Non residents have the same rights as residents.

 

you would have to transport it per PA guidelines which if I recall is not that different from our laws...

 

Correct. without a license there are limited exceptions to having a firearm in a vehicle:

 

PA 18 ss 6106[/url]]18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license

(a) Offense defined.--

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2)' date=' any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1'] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(B) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.

(2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.

(3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this Commonwealth.

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.

(5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.

(6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.

(7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.

(8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(B)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.

(9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing as permitted by such license, or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.

(10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.

(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

(12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license.

(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

(14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C § 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 926A (relating to interstate transportation of firearms).

(15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:

(i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.

(ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.

(16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3).

 

 

 

 

 

Correct me if im wrong but i believe there is no such thing as open carry in a car. A gun in a car constitutes being concealed....

 

also correct...

 

 

18 ss6109[/url]](a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

 

 

I'm not certain about PA' date=' but some states recognize the magazine as part of the gun, if the magazine is loaded the gun is loaded even if the gun is in the trunk locked with the mag locked in a separate container. I think CA follows this.

[/quote']

 

Per PA UFA:

 

"Loaded." A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.

[deni 16]

I thought semi auto shotguns were 6 not including one in the chamber

[Dan 177]

I'm not certain about PA, but some states recognize the magazine as part of the gun, if the magazine is loaded the gun is loaded even if the gun is in the trunk locked with the mag locked in a separate container. I think CA follows this.

 

I've been told by numerous people not to transport a loaded magazine in NJ. Found this post also: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=9&t=212439

[Bob B 103]

I've been told by numerous people not to transport a loaded magazine in NJ. Found this post also: http://www.ar15.com/...=8&f=9&t=212439

 

Interesting quote from Mr. Gilbert. Although it's good advice to keep your mags unloaded while transporting, just in case, I have yet to see any case law in NJ where a judge considered a gun loaded because a magazine, not inserted into the gun, was loaded. I wouldn't be surprised if there is, but he should have backed up his statement with some kind of proof. I'm concerned that he may be perpetuating a rumor. To make the statement " The gun would be considered loaded, and it would place you outside the exemptions for proper transportation of the firearm." is pretty conclusive. I would like to see the case law that backs up his statement.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Interesting quote from Mr. Gilbert. Although it's good advice to keep your mags unloaded while transporting, just in case, I have yet to see any case law in NJ where a judge considered a gun loaded because a magazine, not inserted into the gun, was loaded. I wouldn't be surprised if there is, but he should have backed up his statement with some kind of proof. I'm concerned that he may be perpetuating a rumor. To make the statement " The gun would be considered loaded, and it would place you outside the exemptions for proper transportation of the firearm." is pretty conclusive. I would like to see the case law that backs up his statement.

+1

 

if the law doesn't say it.. then it is not so..

[Downr@nge 22]

Be careful! Right now there are open discussions on NJCSD and PAFOA forums about the legality of us New Jerseyans CCW'ing in PA with a FL CCW. The problem is with NJ's exemptions and traveling with a firearm.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Be careful! Right now there are open discussions on NJCSD and PAFOA forums about the legality of us New Jerseyans CCW'ing in PA with a FL CCW. The problem is with NJ's exemptions and traveling with a firearm.

there should be no real debate or confusion.. the state can not stop you from traveling to another state.. you can legally take your guns to another state..

 

are they legal where you start? YES

are they legal where you end up? YES

 

NJ law does not prevent you from leaving the state and bringing property you legally own.. this was discussed to death here just a little while ago..

[Daedalus 19]

jackdawack is spot on... I did not expect a class discussion around legalities. To be fair, it was not planned but the discussion migrated in that direction. My purpose in posting here was not to lambaste the instructor but, rather, to find out if my aging memory is failing me!

 

I have heard similar misunderstandings from a state sponsored hunting course safety instructor, although not in quite some many subject areas. It is human nature to expand true areas of expertise into related subjects without a thorough understanding. It happens in every field. The individual has helped me quite a bit by improving my shooting capabilities, so I would like to leave it at that.

 

I very much appreciate the responses, PMs and support. It's good to know that not quite all of my gray matter has yet turned to mush!

[stever 16]

there should be no real debate or confusion.. the state can not stop you from traveling to another state.. you can legally take your guns to another state..

 

are they legal where you start? YES

are they legal where you end up? YES

 

NJ law does not prevent you from leaving the state and bringing property you legally own.. this was discussed to death here just a little while ago..

 

True, but i think the problem is returning from lets say Pa (just joy riding etc and ccw'ing)and entering NJ to head home..unless you were at a Pa range for one example..if stopped in NJ without satisfying a NJ exemption..might be a good idea to join a Pa range and visit it before heading home.

 

By the way I did have a NRA handgun safety course where a NJ instructor told a student in the class that his 15 round magazine was illegal in NJ and the max was 10 rounds.