Herbert Leroy Stout FFL ---NFG

[jjchrissy 0]

Don't be so judgemental on Mr Stout until the facts are out. I have never used him, but maybe he knows something about the ogam we are not aware of. On Shoreshot's web site they posted "with the State Police guidelines now clearly defined on the one handgun every 30 days policy, the total wait between handgun purchases is 33 days. 30 day wait and a 3 day administrative grace period." I questioned this in the NJ Gun Law forum and hoping for some clarification.

[Joelk 61]

Don't be so judgemental on Mr Stout until the facts are out.

 

Then why is he unwilling to transfer ARs when the NJSP has said they are legal?

It seems to me like he is trying to impose his personal opinions as to what is "appropriate" upon the rest of us.

 

I think we should use pro gun dealers like PK90.

[NJJim 37]

Don't be so judgemental on Mr Stout until the facts are out. I have never used him, but maybe he knows something about the ogam we are not aware of. On Shoreshot's web site they posted "with the State Police guidelines now clearly defined on the one handgun every 30 days policy, the total wait between handgun purchases is 33 days. 30 day wait and a 3 day administrative grace period." I questioned this in the NJ Gun Law forum and hoping for some clarification.

 

 

I see the note on Shoreshot's site. Will some NJ FFL speak up and clarify this?

 

I just checked the NJ State web site and the law still reads "i.Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchased within any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:".

 

Grace period for who and what? We need to see this State police guideline.

 

If that was his reason he should have said so and I may have gone along with it provided he could show me the official document where the State Police made their own law.

 

Additionally the FFL I have arranged to take Stout's place had no qualms about transferring my gun on the 31st day. I did tell him my recent problem with Leroy Stout also.

[notmetoo 41]

I've been a customer of Leroy's as well. Never had a problem, though he did mention he doesn't handle "assault rifles". Well, that's his right and if someone has a problem with it, that's fine too. I'm rather surprised by his rudeness though. I'll still give him my non-"evil black rifle" business because his fees are much less than, say, Cheyenne Mtn's.

 

NJJIM - who did you find o replace him? He was relatively close to my house and very reasonable ($25 transfer fee).

[NJJim 37]

I've been a customer of Leroy's as well. Never had a problem, though he did mention he doesn't handle "assault rifles". Well, that's his right and if someone has a problem with it, that's fine too. I'm rather surprised by his rudeness though. I'll still give him my non-"evil black rifle" business because his fees are much less than, say, Cheyenne Mtn's.

 

NJJIM - who did you find o replace him? He was relatively close to my house and very reasonable ($25 transfer fee).

You can search for FFL dealers at places like Gunbroker.com, Bud's Gun shop and other sites that sell guns. All dealers listed don't always do transfers though so you may have to call a few to find one to try. There are a few FFL dealers within a 20 minute drive from my home. The ten minutes to Stout's was nice but another ten isn't bad.

I found two in Allentown NJ that do transfers for less. One will do rifles or shotguns for $15.00 plus NICS and tax. Pistols are more because of reporting requirements. Only one transaction so far so I will hold off on my opinions until a few transactions are completed.

[AdamM&P 1]

Mr.Stout is "old school man" and somewhat hard to deal with FFL dealer. And I am not trying to defend his actions - I am a businessman myself and can't afford that kind of behavior towards my customers - but the reason being is that he had his share of hassle from State Police and he is trying to avoid that by all means and at any cost (this is to answer his unwillingness to transfer AR). I had some transfers done by him in the past, but believe me he is not the worst. Also his extensive knowledge of firearms helped me a lot in the past. Despite all that I would probably use him again in the future.

[tinny22 0]

had a couple of transfers done with mr. stout . no problem , but he does use extra caution . which i dont mind , my first purchase was a hi point 9mm carbine which looks like a AR 15 . mr. stout checked into it before i picked it up which made me feel more comfortable . better to be safe than sorry , i respect that in a FFL .as far as talking to you like that , there is no excuse for that . a guy from sayreville only waited 29 days and got caught , now hes got alot of legal problems and they took away his guns . only in new jersey

[Fishpaw 17]

I called Mr Stout recently about transferring a semi auto BAR and a semi auto Thompson....both are 100% NJ legal...No mags were sent with either rifle....The Thompson has the long barrel so its not a SBR...Neither should be a problem....He said he wouldnt transfer either one......

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I was told by a salesman at NJ Firearms Guild in Rahway that the OGAM law is 110% on the buyer, and has nothing to do with the store/FFL. It is the BUYER'S responsibility to check and stick with the proper dates, and the seller/ffl has no duty to check on you, and if you are obeying the OGAM law.

 

Moral of the story, the FFL guy has no reason to even ask you the question. My FFL dealer didn't ask me a damn thing in regards to OGAM.

[Soju 153]

I was told by a salesman at NJ Firearms Guild in Rahway that the OGAM law is 110% on the buyer, and has nothing to do with the store/FFL. It is the BUYER'S responsibility to check and stick with the proper dates, and the seller/ffl has no duty to check on you, and if you are obeying the OGAM law.

 

Moral of the story, the FFL guy has no reason to even ask you the question. My FFL dealer didn't ask me a damn thing in regards to OGAM.

 

That would make sense, unless of course you are buying them from the same FFL, in which case it would be also their responsibility, or would at least make sense for it to be.

[bry@n 195]

That is not true. If the ffl was the last one to transfer you a firearm, he holds a responsibility. There has been a case recently where a worker lost his pink card for transgerring early.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

That is not true. If the ffl was the last one to transfer you a firearm, he holds a responsibility. There has been a case recently where a worker lost his pink card for transgerring early.

 

Not arguing, but show me the law. I have bought 3 firearms and never has anyone ever asked me for my last purchase date, etc.

[bry@n 195]

Not arguing, but show me the law. I have bought 3 firearms and never has anyone ever asked me for my last purchase date, etc.

 

I don't care about any law. They have taken a pink card from a worker. Every FFL I have ever bought from has always asked. "have you purchased a handgun in the last 30 days?" I am not arguing, just putting info that was not said. While it may be on the buyer, the FFL deals with issues also if guns are bought within the 30 days.

[PK90 3,570]

It is against the law for someone to sell a handgun within 30 days to the same person. Am I missing something here?

[Maksim 1,504]

And nics now holds records of OGAM as I understand it.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

It is against the law for someone to sell a handgun within 30 days to the same person. Am I missing something here?

 

Show me the statute. The law is for purchasing handguns, not selling. Again, we must separate opinions and facts. If there is no specific statute, then it is legal. I will NOT argue the fact that his coworker lost his FFL license. However, there could be 100 different things that could have done it. I can find nothing stating this is true.

 

Furthermore, NICS is a national background check, and I do not believe they give that info to the FFL. They either deny/approve based on criminal records. Think about it. If they see you bought a gun 20 days ago, they might say no. Little do they know, you have an exemption permit. OGAM is a NJ state law.

 

EDIT....I just read the entire legislature in regards to handguns in NJ. Out of it all, this is the ONLY line that validates what you guys are saying....

 

(7) A dealer shall not knowingly deliver more than one handgun to any person within any 30-day period.

 

That means, if the FFL KNOWS you bought a gun before the 30 days, he may DENY you. Nowhere in the entire body of legislation does it say the dealer or FFL is required to ASK you whether or not you are within the 30 day guidelines. The responsibility falls on the buyer.

 

Not trying to argue in a mean way here guys. Just want good info for our members, no hard feelings, and if anyone has anything to add, by all means.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I don't care about any law. They have taken a pink card from a worker. Every FFL I have ever bought from has always asked. "have you purchased a handgun in the last 30 days?" I am not arguing, just putting info that was not said. While it may be on the buyer, the FFL deals with issues also if guns are bought within the 30 days.

 

Again, they may be asking you for YOUR OWN good, trying to be nice and helpful. Our discussion here is whether or not they HAVE to ask.

[Soju 153]

 

 

 

That means, if the FFL KNOWS you bought a gun before the 30 days, he may DENY you. Nowhere in the entire body of legislation does it say the dealer or FFL is required to ASK you whether or not you are within the 30 day guidelines. The responsibility falls on the buyer.

 

Not trying to argue in a mean way here guys. Just want good info for our members, no hard feelings, and if anyone has anything to add, by all means.

 

"So we see you sold this gentleman a second handgun in less than 30 days"

 

"Well I didn't know."

 

"You mean as a licensed dealer you didn't know the law?"

 

"I knew it I just didn't ask"

 

"So you mean to tell me rather then ask so you are following the law, you decided not to and play ignorant? So why should we think you follow the other gun laws?"

 

"Uhh..."

 

"Thanks for playing. You are now no longer an FFL dealer"

 

But of course if you don't know...

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

After more and more reading, the key word up there is KNOWINGLY. So, in essence, the dealer ALWAYS has an out. They can ALWAYS say "they didn't know." You on the other hand, don't have that out, and thus, the responsibility is on you. However, by law (or lack of it) there is nothing on the books that requires them to ask, so technically, unless they KNOW you personally, and KNOW you bought a gun less than 30 days ago, they can NOT ask, make a sale, and if indeed you are under 30 days, it is your problem.

 

This is the SAME thing as hiring an illegal with someone else's social security card. It is illegal to hire an illegal alien KNOWINGLY. However, there is no law requiring an employer to VERIFY the social security number, thus, as long as the employer does not blatantly ask "hey, are you illegal?" then they can always plead ignorance. I guess we can put this to rest now.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

"So we see you sold this gentleman a second handgun in less than 30 days"

 

"Well I didn't know."

 

"You mean as a licensed dealer you didn't know the law?"

 

"I knew it I just didn't ask"

 

"So you mean to tell me rather then ask so you are following the law, you decided not to and play ignorant? So why should we think you follow the other gun laws?"

 

"Uhh..."

 

"Thanks for playing. You are now no longer an FFL dealer"

 

But of course if you don't know...

 

 

Or....

 

"So we see you sold this gentleman a second handgun in less than 30 days."

 

"I sell thousands of guns to thousands of people. It is not possible for me to remember all purchasers and their respective dates."

 

"Why didn't you ask?"

 

"I am not required to by law."

 

"So you violated the law and sold him the gun?"

 

"No, I followed the correct NJ protocol for firearm sales."

 

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

By the way, in legal terms, the word KNOWINGLY is NOT the opposite of "didn't know." KNOWINGLY doing something (in regards to law) is often a crime. Not knowing is NOT.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I don't care about any law. They have taken a pink card from a worker. Every FFL I have ever bought from has always asked. "have you purchased a handgun in the last 30 days?" I am not arguing, just putting info that was not said. While it may be on the buyer, the FFL deals with issues also if guns are bought within the 30 days.

 

Can you please link the case?

[alowerlevel 77]

Furthermore, NICS is a national background check, and I do not believe they give that info to the FFL. They either deny/approve based on criminal records. Think about it. If they see you bought a gun 20 days ago, they might say no. Little do they know, you have an exemption permit. OGAM is a NJ state law.

 

NICS check is run by the NJSP http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27630-nics-check-phone-call/

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

NICS check is run by the NJSP http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27630-nics-check-phone-call/

 

The next time I buy a gun, I will ask my FFL what they say. According you "you" the responsibility is then on the NJSP. They are supposed to inform the dealer/FFL that you will be in violation of OGAM if the purchase goes through, which again, clears the dealer/ffl of any responsibility.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

The next time I buy a gun, I will ask my FFL what they say. According you "you" the responsibility is then on the NJSP. They are supposed to inform the dealer/FFL that you will be in violation of OGAM if the purchase goes through, which again, clears the dealer/ffl of any responsibility.

 

 

NJSP does the checks here in NJ, and you can ask your FFL if you like, but a lot of your messages in this thread did start with PK90 and he's one of the very active FFL's on this forum and one who's comments and opinions of the laws are highly regarded by many here. Just in case you didn't know that about PK90.

 

Harry

[bry@n 195]

Again, they may be asking you for YOUR OWN good, trying to be nice and helpful. Our discussion here is whether or not they HAVE to ask.

 

There is no case. It just happened. It's not like they bring charges against you, they just pull the card and the guy now sweeps.

 

If a ffl sells a gun to somebody and then sells a gun to that same person within 30 days, they are in trouble. Fact is they had a record of the sale.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Not trying to instigate further, just a genuine question: What is the process for losing a Federally issued license for violating a State law?

[M4BGRINGO 139]

A FFL can look through his/her transfer book to see if they have sold you a handgun within the last 30 days. Besides that, what can they do? I can go to Brick Armory and buy a handgun then drive around the corner and buy another from Shore Shot. How does Shore Shot know I just bought a handgun? I could lie to them and say I haven't bought a handgun within the last 30 days. How can they be in trouble then? I certainly will be though.

[Maksim 1,504]

If you bought a handgun within 30 days from the same dealer, both are responsible.

 

In the example above, the dealer would not know, and it is onto the buyer. Although Nics, which is processed by NJSP, would absolutely know.

 

If I was a dealer, I would absolutely think of adding another release form, having the buyer sign, stating they did not purchase any handguns in the past 30 days.

[checko 180]

My reciept from Lou's does have a section where the paper asks if I had purchased a gun in the last 30 days. They did also ask me in the shop before completing the paperwork, but they didn't make me sign the paper....for what its worth