MY SHTF Logic for handguns

[Babaganoosh 192]

Jeff Cooper said it best: .22 LR is wampum! Can be used as money to barter for anything else you need. Or the guy with the 12 ga. (like me) just takes it.

 

Any of you kids know who Cooper was??

 

Or Bill Jordan for that matter?

 

Well unless you surpise the person with your shotty you will be peppered with hot lead from 100 to 150 yards out. I don't have to kill you, just hurt or annoy you enough to move along to another person of interest. I still think the .22 caliber is the best all around shtf caliber.

[Shane45 807]

OK glenn, lets change that to proven in military trials. Meaning its not marketing hype, its test results.

[vjf915 456]

Well unless you surpise the person with your shotty you will be peppered with hot lead from 100 to 150 yards out. I don't have to kill you, just hurt or annoy you enough to move along to another person of interest. I still think the .22 caliber is the best all around shtf caliber.

I don't think that a .22 is a BAD choice, it just certainly wouldn't be my ONLY choice, and certainly wouldn't be my main go to gun. I'd use it for hunting small game, or as a backup weapon in case my main weapon goes down or runs out of ammo. Yea the person trying to take your gun has a 12ga is at a disadvantage at a distance, unless they have slugs. But what about the person with an AR? They'll be able to "pepper" you first.

[bbk 188]

How did a conversation on pistol calibers suddenly turn into a discussion on SHTF logic (sans pistol calibers) and rifles?

 

If you want to have an off topic conversation, make a new thread, please. Otherwise, let's keep this one on topic.

[Maksim 1,504]

I would also think a 22 lr is most versatile, and pack a 9 or 45 for concealment and a 308 for long range zombie work. In any case, be proficient and ability to reload your own ammo.

[Shane45 807]

Personally I have no use for a .22 in the given scenario. If its truly SHTF, I dont think I really care about descreet although some circumstance may arise that warrents it. But SHTF or not for me the min caliber is 9mm.

 

Ben, I think highly hypothetical topics will always have a tendancy to wander

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Personally I have no use for a .22 in the given scenario. If its truly SHTF, I dont think I really care about descreet although some circumstance may arise that warrents it. But SHTF or not for me the min caliber is 9mm.

 

Ben, I think highly hypothetical topics will always have a tendancy to wander

The thing is you can waste .22lr ammo in a shtf scenario, that is if you stocked up on it. You may want to exercise discretion in what round you use based on the quantity you have and task at hand. I can afford to shoot 20rounds when i have 20k in stock, at one single threat. Accuracy is excellent under 60 yards. Why create a minimum caliber round? If the need arises for something more powerful then you can use it, but using something bigger the .22lr isnt always necessary. The point in SHTF is to always be discrete, you don't want to start large gun fights..how many do you think you would survive?

 

I dont ever plan on getting close enough to someone in these types of situation where a .22lr wouldnt be as useful as a larger caliber. And if so, then you move on to more stopping power. Remember, you dont need to decimate you opponent, one hit well placed hit may not stop someone immediately but it will slow them down, and if truly a SHTF scenario they will most likely succumb to the wound.

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

Where are you going to "come across" ammunition?

 

What is your plan for "SHTF"? Are you staying put and protecting your family, are you roving the post apocalyptic wasteland like Mad Max? What are you planning to do?

 

What is "SHTF"? A riot? A hurricane? The gub'mint come to git you?

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why you feel like you will be roaming around with half a dozen handguns "coming across" ammo. What the hell kind of situation are you planning for?

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why you feel like you will be roaming around with half a dozen handguns "coming across" ammo. What the hell kind of situation are you planning for?

 

The OP has already acknowledged that he was looking for a way to rationalize the purchase of additional handguns. We all tend to act on our emotions, and use logic to explain our actions. If one were acting strictly rationally, I think most of us would agree that acquiring a weapon based on the chance of stumbling onto ammo at an abandoned police station in a world WORL is a bit of a stretch.

[bbk 188]

Ben, I think highly hypothetical topics will always have a tendancy to wander

 

Indeed.

 

To throw my hat in the free-for-all, I would say that it is a ridiculous notion to think that a person could carry around five pistols, three rifles, a shotgun, all of corresponding ammunition (which of course has to be in the tens of thousands), and then whatever other gear they might need (like their sanity). It is a ridiculous notion because in most scenarios, as NJ residents, we would have to probably bug out (or be overrun in a heart beat, whether we're discrete or not). A person hauling all of that around, whether on their back or in a vehicle, is easy pickings for those who believe in looting and all.

[vjf915 456]

Why shoot someone with 20 rounds of .22 when you can shoot them with 2 rounds of .223 or 7.62x39? It just doesn't make sense. One loud shot will be harder to track than 10 quiet shots, thus attracting less attention to YOUR location. Also, if you're coming across ammo, you'll also come across people with body armor, or in vehicles with potential jig-rigged armor on the vehicles. Those are scenarios when .22 won't do squat, and you'll need to break out the big guns anyway. You won't always be fighting 1 on 1. What if you come across 5 guys? You sit there and shoot them with 20 shots each of .22, I'll be hiding in the trees taking 5 spaced out, well placed shots of .308. See who they find first.

[Shane45 807]

"Why create a minimum caliber round? If the need arises for something more powerful then you can use it, but using something bigger the .22lr isnt always necessary."

 

Very simply if someone is doing something bad enough to warrent me shooting them, then i want them to stop what they are doing as quickly as possible. In my view, after reviewing MANY MANY actual shooting case studies when I was part of the AmmoLab, a 22 is really not even close to ideal for this task. You realy dont get to choose the scenario so for me the minimum caliber is 9mm which can cover items a 22 could handle. However the other way around is not true. A 22 can not cover the things a 9mm can do. Try putting a .22 through a windshield and then a 9mm and you will see what I mean.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

1 rifle

1 shotgun

1 pistol

 

Build your gear towards that and your set.

[Shane45 807]

Ray your not going to break into a george thorogood and the delaware destroyers song are you?

 

 

[Sixtytwo327 14]

This is a fun game; FWIW I'd go lever action .357 and S&W 686. Same calibers, no magazines and both reliable with minimal maintenance.

 

Having a rifle-pistol use a single cartridge would be a huge advantage. Possible also for Beretta 92 & CX4. Of course, an AR-pistol and carbine would be nice, since it's Mad Max apocalyptic wasteland and all.

 

For for magazines, realistically, how many magazines can you carry? And in a fight, would you be able to stop and pick them up? Unless you have a steady supply or a huge stash, that might become a liability.

[bbk 188]

For for magazines, realistically, how many magazines can you carry? And in a fight, would you be able to stop and pick them up? Unless you have a steady supply or a huge stash, that might become a liability.

 

People who speed reload every time, and dump their magazines in the process (and think it is the proper way of doing things) probably have never trained for a two way range. For a lot of reasons, magazine retention is paramount, and instead of speed reloads, the focus should be on combat reloads (IMO).

How many could be carried? Obviously depends on the firearm, as I've seen guys easily carry 8+ pistol magazines, and have seen 12-15 AR STANAG magazines. What really is more important is training for that purpose. If a person trains to carry 100+ lbs of gear, and can move with it easily (stamina and dexterity), then it's a moot point. If a mall ninja thinks they can lug around 70 lbs, but never train, or even pick it up, until the moment they need to... well, it's an obvious fail.

 

Weight is a huge factor, but it's not the whole argument. Weight + efficiency seems to make more sense, to me, when thinking about the hypothetical question.

[JimmyAGR 54]

For for magazines, realistically, how many magazines can you carry? And in a fight, would you be able to stop and pick them up? Unless you have a steady supply or a huge stash, that might become a liability.

 

 

If this wasn't NJ then we would need only half as many as they could be 30 rounders....

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Why shoot someone with 20 rounds of .22 when you can shoot them with 2 rounds of .223 or 7.62x39? It just doesn't make sense. One loud shot will be harder to track than 10 quiet shots, thus attracting less attention to YOUR location. Also, if you're coming across ammo, you'll also come across people with body armor, or in vehicles with potential jig-rigged armor on the vehicles. Those are scenarios when .22 won't do squat, and you'll need to break out the big guns anyway. You won't always be fighting 1 on 1. What if you come across 5 guys? You sit there and shoot them with 20 shots each of .22, I'll be hiding in the trees taking 5 spaced out, well placed shots of .308. See who they find first.

I was merely stating that one could afford to shoot 20 rounds if they had too, not that they necessarily would. One well placed 22lr shot can stop a person, just like many calibers. I didn't say it was the best option for every scenario, and i personally would choose to avoid contact unless presumably being attacked. I for one would never travel alone and would always make sure i had a person with me carrying a more powerful rifle if need be. People always assume that if you see an enemy you have to fight, my philosophy has and will always be to fight dirty in order to survive, if i don't have the upper hand in the fight i will retreat. I've played enough Battle Field to know when to run when to hide and when to take a stand. The fact is you will at some point be in a situation where you will have to run, you wont always have the upper hand, and you will be going up against armor. Small calibers allow you throw down enough lead to get away, have mediocre damage, and are light weight. What would i do if i was up against an armor vehicle? shoot the tires and run. Armored people? aim for the head. 5 on one? make sure i have cover and enough distance between the threats. I'm not the type of person to take a stand, not if my life depends on it, i will look for every opportunity to slip away unnoticed.

 

I wouldn't rely on a .22lr to get every job done, your limited of course. But at the same time, say your .308 doesnt get the job done before they find where your hiding... you better be in great shape to run with that heavy rifle and any other gear you might have on you. I'd say go for a 1-mile run with that thing on your back and let me know how it turns out. If you can do it great, but many people dont have the stamina to do such a thing carrying nothing let alone gear and guns lol.

 

Personally, i'm small built and have great power to weight ratio. Bare bone i can run, hike, climb and i'm very nimble on my feet. Adding weight significantly decrease my performance in all of these areas. I'm more of a scout then militia.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

If this wasn't NJ then we would need only half as many as they could be 30 rounders....

Buy 30rd pinned mags... duhh!! there wont be anyone to arrest you if you pull the pin and remove the block if SHTF.

[Shane45 807]

Jack, my 308 is about .75 of a pound heavier than my 5.56.... But back to the 22. I just dont see the point or any compelling reason to reconsider. If you cant afford to have a resonable stash of reasonable calibers, then your problems are likely many in a SHTF scenario.....

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Jack, my 308 is about .75 of a pound heavier than my 5.56.... But back to the 22. I just dont see the point or any compelling reason to reconsider. If you cant afford to have a resonable stash of reasonable calibers, then your problems are likely many in a SHTF scenario.....

I'm not arguing or trying to sway you into using a small caliber. By all means use what your proficient with. I have 5.56 9mm and .22lr and will absolutely be adding a .308. I choose my calibers based on need, so clearly there is a need for them. To say a 22lr is the best is incorrect, it does however have many benefits depending on the situation or task. If i need to get somewhere quick and back i would grab the lightest possible option with the most ammo. If im holding up at the "fort" then by all means use a .50 cal.

 

A 22lr is also good for squirel soup, and a .308 can take down a deer. A bow would be a great option as well to have in the arsenal.

[Shane45 807]

Ive actually divested myself of the big boomers. The 50 BMG is long gone and the 338lm as well because the cost and practicality is highly questionable for me anyway. Although I have a sick twisted love afair for the 338lm as I have had 3. I keep buying them and hate that there is really no where to practiclly shoot it in NJ.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I can't believe a 22 is considered at all in any situation. UNLESS IT'S ALL YOU HAVE, Leave the 22 for plinking and varmint hunting.

[djg0770 481]

How did a conversation on pistol calibers suddenly turn into a discussion on SHTF logic (sans pistol calibers) and rifles?

 

If you want to have an off topic conversation, make a new thread, please. Otherwise, let's keep this one on topic.

 

 

Ok Atlas - you try rolling that stone up that hill again...

 

Or try putting that cat back in the bag...

[Sixtytwo327 14]

If a mall ninja thinks they can lug around 70 lbs, but never train, or even pick it up, until the moment they need to... well, it's an obvious fail.

 

Weight is a huge factor, but it's not the whole argument. Weight + efficiency seems to make more sense, to me, when thinking about the hypothetical question.

 

If the SHTF, I'm confident in my ability to knock down hundreds of clay pigeons. That's the extent of my knowledge and training.

 

Keeping with the original post, in the fantasy world of Mad Max, a single caliber for pistol and carbine makes sense.