Presenting ID to an officer of the law?

[KpdPipes 388]

Hey I just posted the laws, to the same respect though the cops standing out a club checking ids..... You think that is legal

"Club" as in Bar?? yes it's legal because there are strict controls on the age limit for people to be able to drink.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Ok, so in nj a cop can do a terry stop , this is not a arrest, and he does not need probable cause here's the legal schinanigans I found..... In the United States, a Terry stop is a brief detention of a person by police[1] on reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest.

 

The name derives from Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968),[2] in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person whom they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity;[3] the Court also held that police may do a limited search of the suspect’s outer garments for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be “armed and dangerous”.[4] When a search for weapons is authorized, the procedure is known as a “stop and frisk”.

 

To have reasonable suspicion that would justify a stop, police must be able to point to “specific and articulable facts” that would indicate to a reasonable person that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.[5] Reasonable suspicion depends on the “totality of the circumstances”,[6] and can result from a combination of facts, each of which is by itself innocuous.[7]

 

The search of the suspect’s outer garments, also known as a patdown, must be limited to what is necessary to discover weapons;[8] however, pursuant to the “plain feel” doctrine, police may seize contraband discovered in the course of a frisk, but only if the contraband’s identity is immediately apparent.[9]

 

In some jurisdictions, persons detained under the doctrine of Terry must identify themselves to police upon request. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177, the Court held that a Nevada statute requiring such identification did not violate the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition against unreasonable searches and seizures, or, in the circumstances of that case, the Fifth Amendment’s privilege against self incrimination.

 

Terry v Ohio clearly states

 

police may briefly detain a person whom they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity

 

Like I said, it can NEVER be "just because."

 

Now, sure, police are often guilty of coming up with RAS, but due to cell phones, cameras, etc, they have recently gotten more careful.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Hey I just posted the laws, to the same respect though the cops standing out a club checking ids..... You think that is legal

 

 

I have NEVER seen a police officer doing id checks at a club. A club is a private establishment, and they can set any rules they want. If they want to require pink sneakers, they have the right. Like KDpipes said, you must be able to prove that you are 21 to drink, so they MAY ask for your ID (many places that serve liquor don't, like Friday's for instance) but they have the right to card for whatever age they want.

 

Now, police do raid clubs/bars in order to establish legal compliance, and check for underage drinking, but I have never EVER heard of a police officer checking IDs at the door of a club. I am actually pretty sure they are not even allow to do that, since they are not employees of the establishment.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Cguiro, while it's a lower level than Probable Cause, "Reasonable Suspicion" means there are STILL standards that have to be met, I can't just stop someone and rag-bag them without SOMETHING to go on. there still needs to eb SOME minimal articulable reason for the stop. the Problem arises when someone uses a Terry-type Stop and Frisk to justify locating say a Dime ($10.00) Bag of narcotics. The Terry Exception is designed EXCLUSIVELY for weapons, and there arent too many things 1"X1" square and flat that constitute a "Weapon" if you get my meaning.

 

After reading this post, I am wondering what our debate was? It seems you agree with everything I said.

[heaterbob 53]

I am NOT a lawyer, but know POLICE law very well, or better yet, laws that POLICE must follow.

great another non lawyer giving out legal advise

[KpdPipes 388]

great another non lawyer giving out legal advise

Holiday Inn Express?????

[Tactical Turtle 11]

Sry about all the post and edits.... Asking for id is so minimal why even give the cop a hard time, if he's asking there must be a reason. There not just gunna waste there time

[BlackOps Badger 52]

I have NEVER seen a police officer doing id checks at a club. A club is a private establishment, and they can set any rules they want. If they want to require pink sneakers, they have the right. Like KDpipes said, you must be able to prove that you are 21 to drink, so they MAY ask for your ID (many places that serve liquor don't, like Friday's for instance) but they have the right to card for whatever age they want.

 

Now, police do raid clubs/bars in order to establish legal compliance, and check for underage drinking, but I have never EVER heard of a police officer checking IDs at the door of a club. I am actually pretty sure they are not even allow to do that, since they are not employees of the establishment.

 

I used to work at a night club in Avalon, Nj and every couple of weeks APD would put a couple of officers in our shirts at our front door to try and catch fake id's. I don't know if they actually wrote tickets or arrested for it, because I worked inside, but they were there.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Sry about all the post and edits.... Asking for id is so minimal why even give the cop a hard time, if he's asking there must be a reason. There not just gunna waste there time

 

Simple. Outside major PD departments (ie NYPD, Philly PD, Chicago PD, LAPD, etc,) most smaller township cops are good. Cops generally are not dickheads in small departments. A "normal" cop would never ask a regular citizen not doing anything to see their ID. They know they have no RAS, they know the person doesn't have to, and there is simply, no reason. Now, a small percentage of cops either get their jollies off of harassing citizens or just flat don't know the law. In these cases, it is your DUTY to protect your own rights, and not just "comply" with a request just because it was put forth by a person in a position of power. Should you be an a-hole right off the bat? Of course not. However, if an officer ever stops you, it is HIS job to tell you why he is stopping you. Just asking for ID is not enough. You can and SHOULD ask, what is this about officer? There are polite ways of handling situations, but you should never let someone in authority get away with law breaking. Remember, they won't extend that courtesy to you. Furthermore, like I said, you don't need to show them ID. You can simply say "my name is David" and that is it. If they need MORE information, they MUST has RAS and need to OFFICIALLY detain you.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I used to work at a night club in Avalon, Nj and every couple of weeks APD would put a couple of officers in our shirts at our front door to try and catch fake id's. I don't know if they actually wrote tickets or arrested for it, because I worked inside, but they were there.

 

Fake IDs are technically a "crime" (different states have different severity of these infractions) so that technically doesn't have anything to do with the club, just a convenient place to do it. They technically need the businesses' permission to do this, but it is in the club's best interest to allow it. Being on the good side of the law with police is a good thing for a club.

[djg0770 481]

Fake IDs are technically a "crime" (different states have different severity of these infractions) so that technically doesn't have anything to do with the club, just a convenient place to do it. They technically need the businesses' permission to do this, but it is in the club's best interest to allow it. Being on the good side of the law with police is a good thing for a club.

 

Most "ID checks" at clubs are conducted outside, on the sidewalk, prior to entering the establishment. Please explain, using real legal opinions rendered in a real court of law (ie no Judge Judy or Peoples Court), why they would need the businesses' (sic) permission to conduct this on the public sidewalk.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Most "ID checks" at clubs are conducted outside, on the sidewalk, prior to entering the establishment. Please explain, using real legal opinions rendered in a real court of law (ie no Judge Judy or Peoples Court), why they would need the businesses' (sic) permission to conduct this on the public sidewalk.

 

Really? Did you not bother to read the rest of the thread??? Police can't just stand on the sidewalk checking IDs. Who said I was going in that club, maybe I am walking by. Police have no right to randomly check IDs EVER. Instead of being sarcastic and condescending, consider reading the rest of the thread. Club doors, even if outside, is still private domain. Police also have ZERO right to harass patrons of any business unless, again, they have REASON TO DO SO. Police also have ZERO right to participate or interfere with private business unless again, there is criminal activity going on, or at a MINIMUM, suspicion. Fake IDS are a crime/misdemeanor for the person, not the business, thus, the business is still protected from police involvement of ANY kind.

 

BTW, just out of curiosity, I will do research in regards to the police officers dressing in club staff uniforms and trying to catch fake IDs. I don't think that is allowed, but will find out for sure.

[KpdPipes 388]

Really? Did you not bother to read the rest of the thread??? Police can't just stand on the sidewalk checking IDs. Who said I was going in that club, maybe I am walking by. Police have no right to randomly check IDs EVER. Instead of being sarcastic and condescending, consider reading the rest of the thread. Club doors, even if outside, is still private domain. Police also have ZERO right to harass patrons of any business unless, again, they have REASON TO DO SO. Police also have ZERO right to participate or interfere with private business unless again, there is criminal activity going on, or at a MINIMUM, suspicion. Fake IDS are a crime/misdemeanor for the person, not the business, thus, the business is still protected from police involvement of ANY kind.

BTW, just out of curiosity, I will do research in regards to the police officers dressing in club staff uniforms and trying to catch fake IDs. I don't think that is allowed, but will find out for sure.

 

Dont give up your Day job, and leave the lawyering to REAL attorneys..ABC can Go in and do a full Check of ANY licensed premise at ANY time, up to and Including checking ID's of EVERY patron in the establishment.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Dont give up your Day job, and leave the lawyering to REAL attorneys..ABC can Go in and do a full Check of ANY licensed premise at ANY time, up to and Including checking ID's of EVERY patron in the establishment.

 

I never said they can't. I clearly wrote that RAIDS are allowed. I was talking about the DOOR of the club. No crimes (ie underage drinking) have occurred at the door. This isn't Minority Report. We don't have pre-crime. It is also not that simple. What about clubs that are 18+, but 21 to drink, do police ID everyone? No, they ID people who have a drink in their hand. A drink in their hand is enough. I think you are talking about oranges as opposed to my apples.

[Murphy4570 15]

Fake IDs are technically a "crime" (different states have different severity of these infractions) so that technically doesn't have anything to do with the club, just a convenient place to do it. They technically need the businesses' permission to do this, but it is in the club's best interest to allow it. Being on the good side of the law with police is a good thing for a club.

 

I doubt the private establishments are doing it for primarily that reason, and also for that reason alone. Being on the "good" side of the PD is useful, but its more advantageous to be inside the "good 'ole boy" network if that's the angle you're trying to play, as a business owner.

 

Keeping underage drinkers out of their establishments is a likelier reason, as you can get your club/bar/whatever fined and/or shut down if caught serving alcohol to minors. So the thinking on the part of the bar owners is, "hey, why not let the local cops check ID's if they want? That way, if they let a fake one through that later gets caught by an undercover BATFE or State Police agent, I have a solid defense in court."

 

Hence why such things happen. CYA to the maximum degree.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I happened to be browsing my morning news site and stumbled across this. This is a perfect example of how this can be an issue to someone who does not have their ID with them. What a hassle for this woman.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45135682/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/t/student-jailed-nights-when-she-cant-show-id/#

[Jon 264]

I happened to be browning my morning news site and stumbled across this. This is a perfect example of how this can be an issue to someone who does not have their ID with them. What a hassle for this woman.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45135682/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/t/student-jailed-nights-when-she-cant-show-id/#

 

 

???

[KpdPipes 388]

 

???

 

Not uncommon..Problem here is A: the design of NYC's arrest system, and B:what determines a "Reasonable" (there's THAT word again) amount of time to allow someone to go get ID for her. I've had to hook someone up for a TO violation...basically what amounts to a ticket, because they couldnt produce ID, and had to have a bail set.. Same for Shoplifters. Here, 99% of the time if its a DP/PDP (hell most 4th degree crimes as well) and you have ID you're going to be summonsed out, and cut loose, if you have NO id, or anyone to bring it to you, aren't in our arrest/Criminal history archives, or you aren't known to someone through prior dealings, you're going to get a Bail set, and if you can't make the bail...you're going to the County Jail. That's HERE..NYC's arrest procedures havent changed in a century/ ALL arrests are transported to Central Booking, then from there to Court for Arraignment, and once a priosner is in the process, you could have a platoon show up with ID for him or her, it's not going to matter. That said, 36 hours is pretty long, but not unheard of if it's a busy night. Wit US it's a lot easier..if you're from out of state and your State has DMV photos online, we can ID that way. The average PD in NJ has way more resources (other than manpower) than the majority of NYPD stations. NYPD's booking system is SO bad that Rangers who work on the Statue of Liberty will physically transport arrestees to the ONE small area of Ellis Island that is still "NJ Soil" before making the "Formal" arrest just because it's easier to book through Jersey City than NYC.

[this_is_nascar 162]

 

???

 

 

Seems like a few of you guys on this forum are pretty quick to point-out other's mistakes.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Seems like a few of you guys on this forum are pretty quick to point-out other's mistakes.

 

I personally have no issue if I post anything and it's incorrect information is corrected, not only am I learning I was misinformed, the person who asked the question in the first place then receives correct information.

 

Now the Clip Mag thing, well we all will get that if we make that mistake and while many of us can give it, we have remember to be able to take it. I look at these forums and treat them as if I was sitting around talking about these things in person. I find it best to treat the forums like that, no keyboard commando crap is best.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I happened to be browsing my morning news site and stumbled across this. This is a perfect example of how this can be an issue to someone who does not have their ID with them. What a hassle for this woman.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45135682/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/t/student-jailed-nights-when-she-cant-show-id/#

 

The article seems poorly worded, but it seems she was trespassing somewhere, in which case, the officer does have the right to ask for ID. Though the judge may think the ticket it frivolous (I have received a trespassing ticket in front of a deli in my younger days, in which the judge immediately threw it out) but the ID request seems to have been legit.

[Soju 153]

36 hours is more then too long. That isn't a busy night. That is a busy night, and entire next day and night. What a frivolous reason as well.

 

Do the police have a system where they can look up people's identification to verify if that person gives them the information?

[KpdPipes 388]

36 hours is more then too long. That isn't a busy night. That is a busy night, and entire next day and night. What a frivolous reason as well.

 

Do the police have a system where they can look up people's identification to verify if that person gives them the information?

Booking in NYC often runs 24 hours..like I said Bones, while it's not COMMON, 36 hours is not beyond the pale over there. Ive had friends on NYPD make an arrest on a friday night and not get home until Sunday. People Just do NOT seem (Or apparently WANT) to understand that NYC is a completely different World when it comes to Policies and procedures for almost everything. Part of it comes from the sheer size of the department, and the number of precincts involved.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Booking in NYC often runs 24 hours..like I said Bones, while it's not COMMON, 36 hours is not beyond the pale over there. Ive had friends on NYPD make an arrest on a friday night and not get home until Sunday. People Just do NOT seem (Or apparently WANT) to understand that NYC is a completely different World when it comes to Policies and procedures for almost everything. Part of it comes from the sheer size of the department, and the number of precincts involved.

 

That, plus the occupy wall street crowd is keeping the departments nice and busy. The problem with this case is that it seems now the officer apparently had no "right" to detain here. Trespassing is defined by...

 

Sec. 140.05 Trespass

 

A person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

 

Here is the problem...they stated...

 

“We’re there five minutes when a police car came up and told us we had to leave because the park was closed,” Mr. Fischer said. “We said, ‘O.K., we didn’t know,’ and turned around to leave. Almost immediately, a second police car pulls up.”

 

Its driver said they would get tickets for trespassing and demanded their IDs. Ms. Zucker suggested that someone could bring her papers from the hotel. “He said it was too late for that, I should have thought of it earlier,” she said.

 

Now, they were not refusing to leave, which is why the judge saw right through it and dismissed the ticket in less than a minute. Unlike private property trespassing, where the owner tells you to leave, and if you fail, police show up, they can arrest you right there, since it was a park without official locking gates, ignorance of signage CAN play a role, which again, is why the judge dismissed the ticket so fast.

 

I think there is going to be a lawsuit filed against the NYPD on this one.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I think there is going to be a lawsuit filed against the NYPD on this one.

 

As there should be, as far as I'm concerned.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

I have NEVER seen a police officer doing id checks at a club. A club is a private establishment, and they can set any rules they want. If they want to require pink sneakers, they have the right. Like KDpipes said, you must be able to prove that you are 21 to drink, so they MAY ask for your ID (many places that serve liquor don't, like Friday's for instance) but they have the right to card for whatever age they want.

 

Now, police do raid clubs/bars in order to establish legal compliance, and check for underage drinking, but I have never EVER heard of a police officer checking IDs at the door of a club. I am actually pretty sure they are not even allow to do that, since they are not employees of the establishment.

 

 

You don't get out much do you?

 

Go to any hopping bar down the shore. Cops working every door.

[Soju 153]

Booking in NYC often runs 24 hours..like I said Bones, while it's not COMMON, 36 hours is not beyond the pale over there. Ive had friends on NYPD make an arrest on a friday night and not get home until Sunday. People Just do NOT seem (Or apparently WANT) to understand that NYC is a completely different World when it comes to Policies and procedures for almost everything. Part of it comes from the sheer size of the department, and the number of precincts involved.

 

Understood, I was just making a point.

 

Any answer to my question though? I'm only asking because I'm not involved in anyway with law enforcement, and legitimately do not know.

[KpdPipes 388]

Understood, I was just making a point.

 

Any answer to my question though? I'm only asking because I'm not involved in anyway with law enforcement, and legitimately do not know.

That's one of those "It Depends" questions. IF the person's state has their DL photos available (most still do not). IF the PD has In-car computers that can ACCESS that information (thats about 50/50) IF there is a vehicle available that has the system. Using my dept as an example, our first MDT's were text only and a major PITA to use. the next system we got was better, but it had no ability to access DMV photos. I believe the ones we have now CAN access DMV photos, but ONLY if the guy using that car is NLETS (state computer/DMV system..in other words, Dispatch) Qualified, your average Guy (or girl) is Not. ANYWHERE else it would have been an hour or two at most, I've cleared attempted Homicides, (Reports, Criminal Complaints, Prisoner Processing/Booking, and Custodial turnover) in less time than it takes NYPD to handle simple arrests...just because their system is that screwy.

[Anselmo 87]

The outrage, to me, in the NYC case is the lack of discretion on the part of the officer. Surely there were more important threats to society than this college girl that the system was busy using their time and resources on.

[KpdPipes 388]

The outrage, to me, in the NYC case is the lack of discretion on the part of the officer. Surely there were more important threats to society than this college girl that the system was busy using their time and resources on.

Then why have rules or laws at all? About the ONLY real issue with this IMO is the timing. If one guy had kicked them loose and another locked them up immediately? yeah that's a problem..however the only time frame we have is "A few minutes later" "Few" ranks right up there with "Reasonable Restrictions" VERY open to interpretation. What if that "Few Minutes" was actually 30 minutes? All NYC parks are posted that they are closed after dark, they ignored that, they were warned to leave, it's possible they then ignored that. So, they get a ticket..IF they have ID. Like I said I have taken people in a Custodial arrest for the EXACT SAME THING..if the person can't be ID'd then they have to post a bail to ensure appearance. Oh, and before anyone brings up OWS or "Zampolit" Park, that is one of the few PRIVATE parks in the city, the PD has no role unless the property owner asks them, and from what i hear from folks over there, the owners WANT the OWS out, but Bloomie and company are leaning heavily on them.