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Open Carrier Shot And Killed When Gun Taken By Thug

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I'm not against open carry but I would make sure you have a good retention holster so this doesn't happen.

 

Part two of that, if someone grabs your gun, run. It can be replaced, you can't. After 10 feet, your chances of getting fatally wounded drop 90%. Don't argue with the bad guy who may be hopped up on drugs.

 

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Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories

 

 

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/1/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

 

 

The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.

Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.

 

The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.

 

Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.

 

Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.

 

Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.

 

"This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.

 

Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.

 

The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.

 

Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.

 

Johnson, speaking generally about juvenile cases, said it is rare in Richmond for a juvenile to be sent to detention after his or her case is adjudicated.

 

"Our goal is to try to get through to these kids before they become adults so we don't automatically lock them up every time they do something wrong," he said.

 

However, in the cases now pending against Smith and Hamiel, prosecutors will try to have the teens tried as adults and, if the suspects are convicted of murder charges, they could face up to life in adult prison.

Smith's attorney, Robert D. Shrader Jr., and Hamiel's attorney, John G. Lafratta, declined to discuss the cases against their clients.

 

No one answered the door Friday at the home of Smith's mother in the 300 block of East 11th Street in the Blackwell neighborhood in South Richmond. Court papers list that address as the home of Smith but also give another address for him.

 

A woman who answered the door Friday at Hamiel's mother's home at the Midlothian Village Apartments in South Richmond said she would have no comment. No one came to the door at the home Hamiel shared with a sister in the 2400 block of Atwell Lane near Jefferson Davis Highway and Bellemeade Road.

 

Authorities say last week's homicides both involved a robbery or attempted robberies, but it was unclear why or how each victim was selected. Also unknown is whether either suspect knew either victim.

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

 

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

 

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

 

Cosby, 32, was sitting with a woman in a car in the 1700 block of Edwards Avenue about 2:30 a.m. last Saturday, when Smith walked up and tried to rob them, according to court documents. The woman hurried out of the car and heard gunshots as she ran. Police found Cosby dead in the vehicle.

 

Smith faces 17 charges, including two counts of murder in the deaths of Tyler and Cosby, along with robbery of Tyler and two counts of attempted robbery in the Edwards Avenue slaying. Hamiel faces eight charges, including murder and robbery of Tyler.

 

Preliminary hearings for both teens are set for Jan. 30.

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Justification for why Open Carry is a terrible idea. If I am a criminal intending to do you harm, and I see that you have a gun, then I will simply ambush you at the most opportune time. Not having the gun be visible is a far more effective means of self-defense as it is a hidden capability. You never know who may have a gun...

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A good reason to carry a back up firearm, pepper spray, and/or knife when open carrying. Saying this is a good reason to not open carry is like saying "That's a good reason not to drive" when you read a news story about a car jacking. :rolleyes: I do understand how that conclusion is made so easily by New Jersians, because the idea of open carry is so foreign to most of you though.

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A good reason to carry a back up firearm, pepper spray, and/or knife when open carrying. Saying this is a good reason to not open carry is like saying "That's a good reason not to drive" when you read a news story about a car jacking. :rolleyes: I do understand how that conclusion is made so easily by New Jersians, because the idea of open carry is so foreign to most of you though.

 

What good are those when you're already being attacked? The problem with open carry is that your cards are LITERALLY on the table for everyone to see. Heck, what's to stop some bad guy from seeing someone OCing, walking up to them, and putting a bullet in the back of their head so they can grab that shiny new gun out of the holster??

 

Nothing.

 

I support the right to OC... but unless you're a cop in uniform, it's very stupid to do.

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A good reason to carry a back up firearm, pepper spray, and/or knife when open carrying. Saying this is a good reason to not open carry is like saying "That's a good reason not to drive" when you read a news story about a car jacking. :rolleyes: I do understand how that conclusion is made so easily by New Jersians, because the idea of open carry is so foreign to most of you though.

 

I disagree. I also think that is a bad analogy. Cars arent primarily used for weapons and self-defense. Guns pretty much are. If i was a bad guy and a KNEW FOR A FACT that there was someone with a gun, why WOULDNT I go for that person 1st to disarm them?

 

Too many negatives, not enough positives.

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Well if someone is attacking me for my side arm they have at least one hand on the sidearm and the other on the other hand most likely, leaving me a free hand to pull a knife and stick the sharp end of it into them.

 

What's stopping someone from walking up and putting a bullet in your head and taking your nice new car? Nothing. So, should we all drive old crappy cars to stop the evil criminals.

 

Thousands of civilians open carry everyday and you hear of one incident and "it's a bad idea!" I do understnad that your logic is skewed by living in the NJ.

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Well if someone is attacking me for my side arm they have at least one hand on the sidearm and the other on the other hand most likely, leaving me a free hand to pull a knife and stick the sharp end of it into them.

 

What's stopping someone from walking up and putting a bullet in your head and taking your nice new car? Nothing. So, should we all drive old crappy cars to stop the evil criminals.

 

Thousands of civilians open carry everyday and you hear of one incident and "it's a bad idea!" I do understnad that your logic is skewed by living in the NJ.

 

That's a silly bit of logic.

 

You really need to think like a criminal to understand the OC vs. CC advantages and disadvantages. Frankly, if someone is determined to commit an act of violence, then they are going to go after the biggest threat to them first and work their way down. So when they enter that convenience store/gas station/etc. and they see you standing there with a gun, then congratulations: you are going to be their first target. Thing is, they know they're going to be gunning for you... you don't.

 

Essentially, you just put yourself out of a potential adversaries OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop. They've already gone through the loop first before you ever even knew they were a threat.

 

Concealed carry however throws a bit of randomness into an adversaries choice of targets, and also lets you get inside their OODA loop. If they don't perceive you as a threat from the get go, then they will probably ignore you and go for their primary objective.

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What good are those when you're already being attacked? The problem with open carry is that your cards are LITERALLY on the table for everyone to see. Heck, what's to stop some bad guy from seeing someone OCing, walking up to them, and putting a bullet in the back of their head so they can grab that shiny new gun out of the holster??

 

Nothing.

 

I support the right to OC... but unless you're a cop in uniform, it's very stupid to do.

 

Just to play a little Devil's Advocate of my own, what's to stop some bad guy from seeing a uniformed cop OCing, walking up to them, and putting a bullet in the back of their head so they can grab that shiny new gun out of the holster??

 

What makes it a stupid thing for us to do, but sensible for a cop?

 

This moron had his gun taken away from him and shot with it because he was in condition white. He had no situational awareness. When you carry, concealed or open, you need to have a heightened level of SA; even more so when you carry open. Your head needs to be on a swivel. You need to be aware of who is behind you so something like this doesn't happen to you. Open carry isn't a stupid thing to do. Being a sheep while open carrying, on the other hand, is a great way to have yourself removed from the gene pool.

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Frankly, if someone is determined to commit an act of violence, then they are going to go after the biggest threat to them first and work their way down.

 

I'm 6'1" 210lbs, chances are I am perceived as the biggest theat gun or no gun. I guess I should stop working out and start slouching so the criminals don't go after me first. :p

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Well if someone is attacking me for my side arm they have at least one hand on the sidearm and the other on the other hand most likely, leaving me a free hand to pull a knife and stick the sharp end of it into them.

 

What's stopping someone from walking up and putting a bullet in your head and taking your nice new car? Nothing. So, should we all drive old crappy cars to stop the evil criminals.

 

Thousands of civilians open carry everyday and you hear of one incident and "it's a bad idea!" I do understnad that your logic is skewed by living in the NJ.

 

This one incident didnt cause me to not like open carry. I have had that opinion for a while and it has NOTHING to do w/ living in NJ. It just doesnt have enough positives. Thats the point.

 

Also another bad analogy here. If that is the case then why would we EVER own anything that is nice &/or valuable? someone could just put a gun to our head and take it away. Owning nice things, wearing nice clothes and jewelry, driving a nice car etc.. arent the equivalent of having a gun on our side that everyone can see. Just not the same thing.

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You really need to think like a criminal to understand the OC vs. CC advantages and disadvantages. Frankly, if someone is determined to commit an act of violence, then they are going to go after the biggest threat to them first and work their way down. So when they enter that convenience store/gas station/etc. and they see you standing there with a gun, then congratulations: you are going to be their first target. Thing is, they know they're going to be gunning for you... you don't.

 

Or they see you standing there with a gun and they decide they don't want to get shot and they leave. There are dozens of these stories out there too that support the other side of what you are saying. I don't disagree with you that CC gives you a distinct advantage over OC, but every one of the scenarios that you and I have mentioned all fail to take into account the chaos of nature. The truth is, we don't know what a criminal is going to do in any given situation. Maybe for every one that will just go balls out for your OC'd firearm there are 100 that will just tuck their tails and move onto easier prey, or maybe the reverse is true. Who knows?

 

I'll bet that we all can agree that situational awareness is the best medicine for all these scenarios, and that our minds are our weapons and the guns are just tools.

 

Essentially, you just put yourself out of a potential adversaries OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop. They've already gone through the loop first before you ever even knew they were a threat.

 

Concealed carry however throws a bit of randomness into an adversaries choice of targets, and also lets you get inside their OODA loop. If they don't perceive you as a threat from the get go, then they will probably ignore you and go for their primary objective.

 

Even if you are CC'ing, you are still going to be reacting to their action. Criminals always act first (if we acted first, then we would be criminals, no?). The trick is getting to in their loop on a subsequent iteration. If you are CC'ing, the aggressor may not have Observed that and you can disrupt his loop by introducing the gun into the situation. But the flip side of that, if you are OC'ing, maybe his Decision is that it's not worth his life to get the few dollars from your wallet or the register.

 

As for me? I'd prefer to CC precisely for the same reasons you've laid out. But just because I've made the decision not to OC, I certainly wouldn't claim it's "stupid" to OC, much the same way I wouldn't claim it's "stupid" to carry a revolver because I've decided that carrying a semi-auto is better for me.

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Just to play a little Devil's Advocate of my own, what's to stop some bad guy from seeing a uniformed cop OCing, walking up to them, and putting a bullet in the back of their head so they can grab that shiny new gun out of the holster??

 

What makes it a stupid thing for us to do, but sensible for a cop?

 

This moron had his gun taken away from him and shot with it because he was in condition white. He had no situational awareness. When you carry, concealed or open, you need to have a heightened level of SA; even more so when you carry open. Your head needs to be on a swivel. You need to be aware of who is behind you so something like this doesn't happen to you. Open carry isn't a stupid thing to do. Being a sheep while open carrying, on the other hand, is a great way to have yourself removed from the gene pool.

 

Easy: the fact that cop killers tend to get a lot more heat put on them then a normal killer. Cops (like most authority figures) don't like it when someone challenges their monopoly on violence/power and pursue direct opponents vigorously. Furthermore, where there is one police officer, there is usually several.

 

Not to mention: ever notice how beat up cop killers tend to get?

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I'm 6'1" 210lbs, chances are I am perceived as the biggest theat gun or no gun. I guess I should stop working out and start slouching so the criminals don't go after me first. :p

 

So what? I'm the same height and weight, and a gun will make me just as dead as someone who is 5'8" and 150 pounds. If someone has a gun and you don't, they have the upper hand (in most cases). You're strength and size mean absolutely nothing when a few bullets hit your center mass or head.

 

But given the choice between some unarmed meathead and a scrawny sack of bones with a 9mm on his hip... who do you think the criminal is going to go for first?

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Easy: the fact that cop killers tend to get a lot more heat put on them then a normal killer. Cops (like most authority figures) don't like it when someone challenges their monopoly on violence/power and pursue direct opponents vigorously. Furthermore, where there is one police officer, there is usually several.

 

Not to mention: ever notice how beat up cop killers tend to get?

 

You're making a pretty powerful assumption that all criminals care about repercussions from their actions. Remember in 2009 when a gunman walked into a coffee shop in Washington state and shot four cops while they were eating? He didn't seem too worried about the heat that was going to be on him. Granted, he might have been looking for a suicide by cop situation, but that just comes back to the chaos thing I mentioned before. We don't know what a criminal is going to do in any given situation. We can only give ourselves every possible advantage and remain aware of our surroundings. I'll bet those four cops didn't think anyone would come in and shoot them, so their SA was low. It was only after the first two were shot did one of the other officers get off a shot or two, hitting the gunman and still taking a bullet himself.

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So what? I'm the same height and weight, and a gun will make me just as dead as someone who is 5'8" and 150 pounds. If someone has a gun and you don't, they have the upper hand (in most cases). You're strength and size mean absolutely nothing when a few bullets hit your center mass or head.

 

But given the choice between some unarmed meathead and a scrawny sack of bones with a 9mm on his hip... who do you think the criminal is going to go for first?

 

 

As a fellow large male shouldn't you be advocating that the smaller males carry guns openly, so we are less of a target instead of calling them stupid or silly? :p

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Or they see you standing there with a gun and they decide they don't want to get shot and they leave. There are dozens of these stories out there too that support the other side of what you are saying. I don't disagree with you that CC gives you a distinct advantage over OC, but every one of the scenarios that you and I have mentioned all fail to take into account the chaos of nature. The truth is, we don't know what a criminal is going to do in any given situation. Maybe for every one that will just go balls out for your OC'd firearm there are 100 that will just tuck their tails and move onto easier prey, or maybe the reverse is true. Who knows?

 

That's the most likely scenario. But having a gun in itself is not a deterrent when the person coming at you has their drawn and aimed.

 

If I were a criminal and saw some schlep with a 9mm on his hip and wanted to rob them and the store they were in, I would come up from behind, or their strong side (gun) and simply order them to get down and simply take it from them. If they resist or make a move... bang, bang, bang.

 

If I (the criminal) didn't see the gun, I probably would've taken the schlep a lot let seriously and ignored them altogether giving them time to act.

 

I'll bet that we all can agree that situational awareness is the best medicine for all these scenarios, and that our minds are our weapons and the guns are just tools.

 

Yep. Usually this begins with staying out of bad areas to begin with. It also means giving yourself more time to act... CCW does that. OC does not.

 

Even if you are CC'ing, you are still going to be reacting to their action. Criminals always act first (if we acted first, then we would be criminals, no?). The trick is getting to in their loop on a subsequent iteration. If you are CC'ing, the aggressor may not have Observed that and you can disrupt his loop by introducing the gun into the situation. But the flip side of that, if you are OC'ing, maybe his Decision is that it's not worth his life to get the few dollars from your wallet or the register.

 

Yes, but you'd be reacting to their assumption that you're unarmed. You have a (hidden) advantage. If you are OCing, you may present yourself as a more formidable target, but you open yourself up more for ambush.

 

As for me? I'd prefer to CC precisely for the same reasons you've laid out. But just because I've made the decision not to OC, I certainly wouldn't claim it's "stupid" to OC, much the same way I wouldn't claim it's "stupid" to carry a revolver because I've decided that carrying a semi-auto is better for me.

 

It's stupid because the disadvantages tend to outweigh the advantages in a wide range of scenarios. The only one logical advantage (posing as a threat to dissuade violence) doesn't work when the person you're trying to dissuade is not afraid of guns or using them. Chances are, most armed criminals have used their guns, have had a gun used against them, and aren't afraid of a 'tool' in someone's holster.

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I'm not going to let one incident change my mind about open carry.

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Its not just a proper holster, if you open carry you need to have a good deal of training in retaining the weapon, grappling, etc.

 

While I support the right for someone to OC, I personally am not a fan in most urban or suburban environments. This incident is one reason.

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We're from NJ so this is with an NJ bent...

 

Any criminal will be less likely to approach someone in NJ open carrying rather than approaching everyone else who (in general) will NOT be carrying???

 

Furthermore, I am against making OC illegal in the event that I am CCing and inadvertently manage to print or my shirt rides up or something of that sort... This is NJ where the law is the law and is used to beat you over the head every chance you get.

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Just to play a little Devil's Advocate of my own, what's to stop some bad guy from seeing a uniformed cop OCing, walking up to them, and putting a bullet in the back of their head so they can grab that shiny new gun out of the holster??

 

What makes it a stupid thing for us to do, but sensible for a cop?

 

 

The radio and the partner.

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How do you radio someone when you are struggling for your life? Not all cops have partners. A bulletproof vest only stops bullets and not all cops wear them, really a helicopter? How is a helicopter sitting on a tarmack going to help an individual officer being attacked? Ah so after the cop is shot in the back of the head then he will be pursued by the police force unlike if he shot a random perso in the back of the head where the police do not respond. :rolleyes:

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How do you radio someone when you are struggling for your life? Not all cops have partners. A bulletproof vest only stops bullets and not all cops wear them, really a helicopter? How is a helicopter sitting on a tarmack going to help an individual officer being attacked? Ah so after the cop is shot in the back of the head then he will be pursued by the police force unlike if he shot a random perso in the back of the head where the police do not respond. :rolleyes:

 

Hard target vs soft target. Simple psycholgy really. Force projection is sometimes just putting your war face on, the rest is not the threat but the promise.

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But those things didn't work too well for the 4 cops in WA that were shot in the coffee shop...

 

Neither did their open carry. Actually made them the target for a lunatic, so it's a wash.

 

So one guy killed four cops once and that erases the rest of what happens to cops in the world? Sure, cops are frequently killed with their own guns, but they also respond to all kinds of reported crimes.

 

But you got nothing like what a uniformed PO has to back you up. For a criminal that thinks (they exist) that is a huge deterent.

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