Is this common at Gun Shops?

[Dan 177]

 

Moron NJSP. I'm surprised the shop didn't tell them to shove their 'advice' up their collective a** until they came up with the reg supporting their 'advice'.

 

Look at my post from 9:16am a few up.

[Stag 0]

I've had the following experiences:

 

Ramsey Outdoor: FID required

Luciano's: nothing required

Davis: nothing required

Meltzer's: FID required

 

Never had someone require an actual permit before - sounds odd.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

IANAL. My interpretation is that any time a gun exchanges hands from owner/dealer to another person, rules have to be followed. If it isn't a "temporary transfer", then 2C:58-3 has to be followed. For HG's the receiver needs to have a PPP, for long guns the receiver has to have a FID.

 

That's friggin stupid. So anytime I let my buddy use my hg at the range, he needs to transfer it from me?

[Duppie 73]

I believe we've established over numerous treads that the predominant reason that a salesman refuses to let you handle a pistol without a FID or PPP is plain and simple laziness.

I also believe it was Harry or Vlad who said that to assure excellent customer service, all one has to do is slap a valid PPP on the counter.

Speculation aside and with all due respect to the embattled small businessmen out there....customer service is the name of the game because the internet beckons.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

In business, it is never wise to be unpleasant towards your regulators. All stores are in business for one reason, to make a profit, and you cannot easily turn a profit when your regulators are looking for excuses to fine you.

 

Sorry but no. This state does a good job pussifying gun owners and dealers alike. I'd rather they protest the NJSP every step of the way instead of cowering before every demand. Living under the sword of Damocles is hardly living at all.

[Melgamatic 66]

I'd rather they protest the NJSP every step of the way instead of cowering before every demand.

 

You are under the mistaken impression that gun stores have anything to do with politics, your rights, their feeling of manliness, the constitution, etc.

 

They are nothing but enterprises attempting to make a profit, and they (correctly) do whatever they feel is the right way to optimize profit. We believe that the way they do that is by showing handguns to anyone who expresses interest (and thereby maximizing sales), whereas the morons at SR believe that the correct way to maximize their profit is to not show handguns to anyone without a P2P.

 

if they fail to make a profit, they just go away., which is the way it should be.

[Dan 177]

That's friggin stupid. So anytime I let my buddy use my hg at the range, he needs to transfer it from me?

 

No, a range is an approved location where you can temporarily transfer the gun to your friend. According to statute 2C:58-3.1. This has been covered in prior posts, but here it is again:

 

2C:58-3.1. Temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifleor shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

It probably has nothing to do with legal issues in any way. Its probably just so they dont "waste" their time with people that are not even capable of buying the firearm. Screwed up, but seems like whats going on

[mmjr 0]

I had a similar experience at this shop which is a real shame on account of them being close to home. Same drill, no touching handguns without a PPP. I offered my FID and DL and he repeated himself. I didn't feel compelled to get into it with the guy and question him since he seemed not so interested in my existence, so I just left. I'd like to support the local shop too but if they aren't interested in accommodating a potential customer, then find another shop.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I'll tell ya, if any shop did that to me, I'd have to let them know right then and there, that they just lost a potential customer, as well as my intension of letting the gun community know and a post here has what, a reach of over 3,000 people.. Plus why put up with that kind of BS when you have plenty of great FFL's right here on the forum who are more than happy to make your purchase a pleasurable experience.

[Anselmo 87]

IANAL. My interpretation is that any time a gun exchanges hands from owner/dealer to another person, rules have to be followed. If it isn't a "temporary transfer", then 2C:58-3 has to be followed. For HG's the receiver needs to have a PPP, for long guns the receiver has to have a FID.

 

The law states two types of transfers: permanent where you fill out a PPP and temporary where you don't and the law defines specific locations where the temp transfer can occur. There is no such a thing as in-between transfer which you have defined yourself to be a temporary transfer at a excluded location that is legal as long as you have a PPP but don't need to complete it. I don't see anything in the law about needing a PPP in possession but not filling it out. Letting someone hold a gun in your home or in a gun store is not a transfer.

[robot_hell 72]

I would inform the store that they permanently lost my business. I have no problems placing deposits, and in one recent case, placed a deposit for the full value of the gun. I'm sure there are many others who feel the same.

[checko 180]

I'll tell ya, if any shop did that to me, I'd have to let them know right then and there, that they just lost a potential customer, as well as my intension of letting the gun community know and a post here has what, a reach of over 3,000 people.. Plus why put up with that kind of BS when you have plenty of great FFL's right here on the forum who are more than happy to make your purchase a pleasurable experience.

 

This. I wouldn't be super nice about it either.

[Dan 177]

The law states two types of transfers: permanent where you fill out a PPP and temporary where you don't and the law defines specific locations where the temp transfer can occur. There is no such a thing as in-between transfer which you have defined yourself to be a temporary transfer at a excluded location that is legal as long as you have a PPP but don't need to complete it. I don't see anything in the law about needing a PPP in possession but not filling it out. Letting someone hold a gun in your home or in a gun store is not a transfer.

 

You let someone hold your gun in your home, but it isn't a transfer, ok, but did you "give" your gun to them, and didn't they "receive" it from you? And that person of course did "hold" it? Am I wrong? Lets see where these words are in the statutes... notice they treat "sell" and "purchase" as subsets of a greater definition.

 

2C:58-3. a. Permit to purchase a handgun. No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section.

 

What type of transfer is it if you hand someone your gun to hold at the range (versus your home or store in your example)? If it is a "temporary transfer" why is it a transfer at the range, but not at your home?

[PK90 3,570]

Here we go again. No one can touch a handgun in a gun shop until they purchase it.

[jgofnj 5]

Sportsman's Rendezvous has a great selection of some things, especially M1A rifles. They almost always have multiple versions of NM and SM rifles, which few other shops carry. They list them on GB, and probably have $50K of them in stock at any time.

 

So, one day I walked in with $2500 in cash, intending to buy one. My wife was with me, and happy to see me having fun.

 

15 minutes later I walked out without a rifle. They (3 of them, that day) were jerks, clearly not interested in selling a $2500 rifle to a customer who was anxious to give them money. The guy showing me the rifles didn't know anything. Any time I asked a question he would yell to the back room, and some guy back there would shout back a short answer, which the guy would repeat to me. $2500 sale and the guy in the back can't show me the rifle? They gave me a hard time about showing me a NM, even though it was right there on the shelf. Geesh.

 

Ended up buying one at the Rahway FAGs a few months later. I probably paid a little more, but Gert is always friendly and happy to show me what I want to see. He'll tell you the rifle is too expensive for him, but he's happy that you can afford it and he's happy to sell it to you.

 

I guess they sell a lot of the M1A's on GB since they have stock and decent prices, but I'm interested if anyone gets more friendly or helpful service from the Sportsmans Rendezvous?

 

I can't believe this story. I hope they realize what they are doing. Every time I go in there, I almost feel bad for them because it doesn't look like they are ever that busy. After reading this story I am not so sure I feel bad for them anymore.

[Anselmo 87]

You let someone hold your gun in your home, but it isn't a transfer, ok, but did you "give" your gun to them, and didn't they "receive" it from you? And that person of course did "hold" it? Am I wrong? Lets see where these words are in the statutes... notice they treat "sell" and "purchase" as subsets of a greater definition.

 

 

 

What type of transfer is it if you hand someone your gun to hold at the range (versus your home or store in your example)? If it is a "temporary transfer" why is it a transfer at the range, but not at your home?

 

So, you conclude that everytime you hold a gun in a gun store that a PPP must be filled out. Clearly, that is wrong.

 

Give means sell for free. You know, like give someone a present. i.e. a transfer where no money or compensation is exchanged. It is a transfer at the range because the receiver is going to shoot the gun.

[Underdog 1,593]

It seems like a policy at a lot of places. I just tell them that I left it in my car. Or, I just bring an old one that was never used with me. They don't look closely at it and know what it is if you have it in hand.

 

But, if they are even the slightest bit rude, etc. that is another reason for purchasing guns online.

[MedicYeti 96]

It sounds like you have to make a decision; deal with the BS close to home or drive a little and find a better shop.

I have been window shopping for handguns while awaiting my permits. I've been in 4 shops (1 I'm on a first name basis with the owners and gun guys). The other 3 haven't asked for anything before handing guns over. I'd be happy to show my FID if they asked. If a shop told me I needed a permit in hand to see something I would tell them they have lost my business and leave.

[BarkNBite 15]

Unfortuately, Sportsman's people have the personality of a Month Old Road Kill........why bother.........please......do your self a favor and go to Lou's Firearms in Raritan NJ.

Wonderful people to deal with........helpful and won't bust'em for ya. Chris and Gene are the best.....only place I buy from.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

But, if they are even the slightest bit rude, etc. that is another reason for purchasing guns online from our vendors here on the forum.

 

Corrected that for ya..

[Dan 177]

So, you conclude that everytime you hold a gun in a gun store that a PPP must be filled out. Clearly, that is wrong.

 

Give means sell for free. You know, like give someone a present. i.e. a transfer where no money or compensation is exchanged. It is a transfer at the range because the receiver is going to shoot the gun.

 

I'm just saying that the law reads to me that a person "has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun" , before being able to hold the gun at the store. Not completely fill it out, like a purchase. I hope I am wrong, but I haven't heard a convincing argument yet that I am.

 

Definition of "give" ranges from sell, give for free as a present, to :

"To put temporarily at the disposal of:"

"d. To entrust to another, usually for a specified reason:"

"2. To place in the hands of; pass:"

[Smokin .50 1,907]

If folks here are going to quote the official statutes, please note that the laws prevent use of firearms in NJ and they ONLY can be used through exemptions. The exemption of being at a range or Pistol Club stated above exists ONLY if you're at a commercial range or a Rifle and Pistol Club that INFORMS the NJSP of the names of its' Members. So IF you go out into the woods to plink and pass around something as inocuous as a .22 pellet gun to take turns, you MIGHT be subjecting yourself to the whim of the INTERPRETATION of this exemption by any number of the 21 County Prosecutors.......

 

So make sure that someone on the Club's Executive Board submits the list of names, in writing, via Certified Mail, with Return Receipt, to the NJSP on an annual basis, as our Club does.

 

Better SAFE than SORRY!

 

As to the main subject:

 

I hang-out at a local shop, and gladly pay what he wants, to keep him in business. I have bought hand guns from him. He NEVER asks to see anything from his regulars, especially if you're already in his hand gun ammo book with FID number written down.......so I would shop elsewhere and develop a relationship that could last a lifetime!

 

Dave

[hd2000fxdl 422]

If folks here are going to quote the official statutes, please note that the laws prevent use of firearms in NJ and they ONLY can be used through exemptions. The exemption of being at a range or Pistol Club stated above exists ONLY if you're at a commercial range or a Rifle and Pistol Club that INFORMS the NJSP of the names of its' Members. So IF you go out into the woods to plink and pass around something as inocuous as a .22 pellet gun to take turns, you MIGHT be subjecting yourself to the whim of the INTERPRETATION of this exemption by any number of the 21 County Prosecutors.......

 

So make sure that someone on the Club's Executive Board submits the list of names, in writing, via Certified Mail, with Return Receipt, to the NJSP on an annual basis, as our Club does.

 

Better SAFE than SORRY!

 

As to the main subject:

 

I hang-out at a local shop, and gladly pay what he wants, to keep him in business. I have bought hand guns from him. He NEVER asks to see anything from his regulars, especially if you're already in his hand gun ammo book with FID number written down.......so I would shop elsewhere and develop a relationship that could last a lifetime!

 

Dave

 

Dave, do clubs really have to give the names of the members or only the number of members. I thought that any club that only collected either Cash or Check and not CC payments were exempt from disclosure of the members names.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Dave, do clubs really have to give the names of the members or only the number of members. I thought that any club that only collected either Cash or Check and not CC payments were exempt from disclosure of the members names.

 

Harry,

 

When I was on the Board of Trustees at Old Bridge (until last March) we conformed with the law, as it was written (and posted here by Vlad T. by the way). To my knowledge there isn't any such differentiation between cash, check or credit card payments to the Club. We're not giving addresses, member ID numbers, phone numbers, or anything else to the NJSP, just the names, which is in the quote printed in this very same thread! Anyone who lives in NJ and buys firearms has an FID at the very minimum and therefore is already known by the NJSP, so no one is being "outed". Most Clubs require proof of FID status to become a member.

 

Like I said before, firearms in NJ are illegal (except for the exemptions). Some folks will give a strict INTERPRETATION of the law and others couldn't be bothered to actually read it. This exemption allows me to "loan" you one of my 1911's if yours breaks or you otherwise don't have a gun to shoot a match. Otherwise, technically, it may be INTERPRETED as an illegal transfer.

 

One of the many reasons that you sign-in at the Indoor Range is to prove that you transported the firearm legally through the EXEMPTION allowed by law (Target Range, Dealer, Smith, to a Match, your place of business, etc.).

 

Commercial Ranges have strict guidelines as to ID to allow a person to handle, as well as be sold a lane to use a firearm. They do seem to enjoy a loophole though when it comes to hand gun rentals. Renters don't need to prove that they're not a prohibited person, they just produce a DL and sign a waiver, which is yet another reason why I don't frequent these places......

[Melgamatic 66]

The exemption of being at a range or Pistol Club stated above exists ONLY if you're at a commercial range or a Rifle and Pistol Club that INFORMS the NJSP of the names of its' Members.

 

Please provide the legal basis for this? Thanks!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Please provide the legal basis for this? Thanks!

 

It's posted in NJ Gun Laws, and it's pinned for the Forum Members to read by Vladtepes. See Transporting Firearms for the transport exemption. The other exemptions are all there as well.....you just have to spend the necessary time to read and understand them, with your radar tuned to "Lawyer-Speak".......

 

The names of the members are to be sent to the Superintendent of the NJSP annually. I brought this up at a Monmouth meeting a couple months ago and was told that it was handled correctly.

[Zed's_Dead 16]

I'd be careful about going too far out of your way to blast a business you're not happy with. Keep in mind that New Jersey recognizes a tort called "interference with prospective business relationship." Below is the definitiion as espoused in a 2010 Appellate Division case.

 

“An action for tortious interference with a prospective business relation protects the right ‘to pursue one’s business, calling or occupation free from undue influence or molestation.’” Printing Mart-Morristown v. Sharp Elecs. Corp., 116 N.J. 739, 750 (1989) (citation omitted). To establish such a claim, plaintiff must establish: (1) a reasonable expectation of economic advantage; (2) that defendants intentionally interfered with that interest; (3) injury or loss inflicted without justification or excuse; and (4) causation. Id. at 751-52.

[Bully 749]

Seriously??? The guy had a bad experience at a shop, came on here to complain/**** about it and get some feedback. Now we're debating the legality of a)letting someone handle a firearm in a store and b) the legality of the original post.

 

Do y'all have nothing more to worry about?

 

C

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Seriously??? The guy had a bad experience at a shop, came on here to complain/**** about it and get some feedback. Now we're debating the legality of a)letting someone handle a firearm in a store and b) the legality of the original post.

 

Do y'all have nothing more to worry about?

 

C

 

Some folks need to be reminded of what their responsibilities are, in a friendly way. Some posters here don't even own a gun. And we're talking about gun handling at a Range, not only in a store. This thread has expanded to more than a piss and moan rant, which tend to get boring real fast anyway IMHO...