Fire on US citizens?

[Silent Service 7]

...............I am going to kick myself....BUT I am going to post in this thread....................

 

I see soooo much internet bravado it makes me sick.........

 

I have not, but have ANY of you that are boasting, ever EVER been on the ' two way range ' ??

 

I have had friends and family that HAVE and they say it is NOT fun........

 

So let's tuck it back in our pants and have a reality check.....if they boys in black come knocking, your giving them up, no if and's or but's.... if you do not you will die, your family destroyed both morally, physically and financially...and you will be labeled a domestic terrorist and made a pariah .... posteriety will long forget who you were...

 

If you hole up in your home and *IF* you are able to get a message out calling for aid.....You will receive ZERO support..NONE....

 

This is NOT 1775 and it is NOT Lexington and Concorde..... A Paul Revere look alike is NOT riding out from the local PD to warn you that the boys in black are coming....

 

 

PLEASE be sensible ............holy hell...

 

I don't think Nickjc reply is defeatist, I think its realistic. If "THEY" come, whoever "THEY" may be, for "WHOEVER" "THEY" are coming for, for whatever reason, it's instant check if not checkmate for the target. Its called "SURPRISE". These people would be the well trained 2% of society that will perforate you, bag you up and then eat a ham sandwich.

 

BTW, probally, PROBALLY, most if not all of us on here are small fry compared to who "THEY" would go after first. And yes, I do realize collectively we are a massive force to contend with, but extremely divided and unorganized. Just look at the bus set up and rally point for the 8th. I know people are trying to organize it and I appreciate the effort, but someone's gotta be the captain. I don't volunteer for Jack so don't go there.

 

I have heard from at least (2) active and (2) recently former military personnel, who don't know each other, that there is indeed military personnel training to fire on civilians. I don't know if what these people have told me is factual or exactly how they know this, I am just telling what I heard.

 

If true, I think we have to ask WHY?

What reason would cause our military to fire on us? Or the alphabet soup of Govt. agencies? What is the ultimate outcome? To enslave us? For what? To plug us in like in the "Matrix"? Population control? Because Obama wants to be King? (Bush/Cheney was as bad or worse, I believe they are all just puppets), The push for the NWO? I'm concerned there is a NWO that is pulling the strings of all of us. Why? I don't know.

 

What I'm more concerned about is that we are going to be firing on each other. The racism in this country is unbelievable, perpetrated by mass media on the weak minded. The white supremists, black panthers, la-raza, NAACP, etc. are instigators that are dividing us. "Divide and conquer", I don't know where that quote comes from, but it is true. But again, why? Is this a evil plan by the NWO or some other insidious group? And again why? Whether or not there's a Gov't/NWO order setting us up for internal suicide, or a catastrophic natural event of biblical proportion strikes us, I'm am more concerned we are going to be at each others throats.

 

For you people that have never been at the razors edge of pulling the trigger on another human being, STFU. It is about 3rd on the last place you'll ever want to be.

[ruger9 0]

, I'm am more concerned we are going to be at each others throats.

.

 

That's been the plan all along. How else to declare marshall law? Go ahead with the "tin foil hat" accusations, but this society, at some point, became re-designed to FAIL. ON PURPOSE. People have seen it coming for generations, maybe it will be ours who unfortunately get to witness it?

[Silent Service 7]

So, back to the topic.... *IF* the claim is true....that Obama is vetting military leaders on whether they'll "fire on US citizens" or not... ....what in the world can you imagine would prompt that?

 

Exactly.

[Silent Service 7]

That's been the plan all along. How else to declare marshall law? Go ahead with the "tin foil hat" accusations, but this society, at some point, became re-designed to FAIL. ON PURPOSE. People have seen it coming for generations, maybe it will be ours who unfortunately get to witness it?

 

Systematically this would be the most way, then just clean up the mess.

 

But again, Why? What is the end result?

[ruger9 0]

Systematically this would be the most way, then just clean up the mess.

 

But again, Why? What is the end result?

 

Totalitarian control. Power corrupts absolutely. My God man, study a little history! It's been the nature of government since time began. With the 20th Century being particularly spellbinding on this topic.

[Underdog 1,593]

...............I am going to kick myself....BUT I am going to post in this thread....................

 

I see soooo much internet bravado it makes me sick.........

 

I have not, but have ANY of you that are boasting, ever EVER been on the ' two way range ' ??

 

I have had friends and family that HAVE and they say it is NOT fun........

 

So let's tuck it back in our pants and have a reality check.....if they boys in black come knocking, your giving them up, no if and's or but's.... if you do not you will die, your family destroyed both morally, physically and financially...and you will be labeled a domestic terrorist and made a pariah .... posteriety will long forget who you were...

 

If you hole up in your home and *IF* you are able to get a message out calling for aid.....You will receive ZERO support..NONE....

 

This is NOT 1775 and it is NOT Lexington and Concorde..... A Paul Revere look alike is NOT riding out from the local PD to warn you that the boys in black are coming....

 

 

PLEASE be sensible ............holy hell...

 

 

Frustration....

[Underdog 1,593]

...............I am going to kick myself....BUT I am going to post in this thread....................

 

I see soooo much internet bravado it makes me sick.........

 

I have not, but have ANY of you that are boasting, ever EVER been on the ' two way range ' ??

 

I have had friends and family that HAVE and they say it is NOT fun........

 

So let's tuck it back in our pants and have a reality check.....if they boys in black come knocking, your giving them up, no if and's or but's.... if you do not you will die, your family destroyed both morally, physically and financially...and you will be labeled a domestic terrorist and made a pariah .... posteriety will long forget who you were...

 

If you hole up in your home and *IF* you are able to get a message out calling for aid.....You will receive ZERO support..NONE....

 

This is NOT 1775 and it is NOT Lexington and Concorde..... A Paul Revere look alike is NOT riding out from the local PD to warn you that the boys in black are coming....

 

 

PLEASE be sensible ............holy hell...

 

You should kick yourself in the A$$. If you can't handle it, stay in the kiddy section of the forum. History has shown what governments can do to their people, even recent history. This is about freedom verses tyranny. This is about individual rights over the right of the government to do as it pleases. This is about private property verses socialism and collectivism. There were many people that died for us to have the liberty that we have. Nobody is suggesting to stand up alone against the government and go and get some blood, but for heaven's sake (yes its time to pray while you take action) ... promote growing a pair instead of bending over. Are there a lot of things to consider. You bet. If there is no unification against this assault on our liberties, all will be lost. It's better not to get to the point where men in black show up. There are tools... impeachment, etc. There are groups and movements... the NRA, the Tea Party, etc. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. This may not be 1776, but it is for us to do our generational duty to pass the reigns of freedom to our kids.

[Underdog 1,593]

Obama has never been a president for this nation. His motives are alien to our culture and our people.

[Soju 153]

...............I am going to kick myself....BUT I am going to post in this thread....................

 

I see soooo much internet bravado it makes me sick.........

 

I have not, but have ANY of you that are boasting, ever EVER been on the ' two way range ' ??

 

I have had friends and family that HAVE and they say it is NOT fun........

 

So let's tuck it back in our pants and have a reality check

 

I hate to do it, but I have to comment here.

 

You ask if any of us have "been on the two way range" yet then go on to show how YOU haven't only that you know of people who have. I'm sorry, but that is saying exactly squat. Good for you for knowing people. If I had to guess, most people know people who have been in different situations too. I imagine you were looking for a cookie because that does nothing to support or substantiate any point or position. The position has its own merit unrelated to who you do or don't know...

 

 

At what point did I say that the 2A or any of the enumerated rights of the Bill of rights are outdated....dont put words in my mouth i detest that....if you are going to quote me do so accurately...

 

Come back with an arguement against something I actually said...not what you think I said....

 

When you said this.

 

1) National Firearms ID card

2) National CCW

3) Certification course in order to obtain # 1/ #2

4) Yearly proficiency check and re-certification

5) NO face to face sales without NICS check

6) magazine limit to 20 rounds in rifle and pistol nationwide

 

 

are just some of the things that I see as being a valid middle ground that preserves our rights and satiates those that would look to take them all

 

Not aware of any of those things being in listed in or supported by the Bill of Rights so one could only assume you wish to change them (the 2nd in this case). That would imply either you never agreed with it to begin with or that you think it is outdated.

[Silent Service 7]

Totalitarian control. Power corrupts absolutely. My God man, study a little history! It's been the nature of government since time began. With the 20th Century being particularly spellbinding on this topic.

 

Smart ass....

 

W.T. Sherman warned Grant about getting into politics, he did'nt listen and look what happened to him.

 

Oh, the Totalitarianism thing, newsflash for ya. We're already there. I was wondering what the next step was.

 

Can you pick on Nick some more, I enjoyed watching you two. BTW, I think both of you have good points.

[oneshot 45]

Unfortunately you may be right Nick. I see a lot of talk ,not just here but on the street ,other forums. I suspect there are very few with the balls to unite and stand up to

the "men in black" who are bigger and more bad then the "subjects" they wish to neuter.

Just like the revolution, out gunned ,out numbered. But they united,did what they had to do and they won. I wont talk about what i think i would do, it means nothing on a tinfoil forum.

I would hope that i wouldnt dishonor the men and women who served there country proudly (military men and women) who died on battle fields both here and abroad to preserve freedom.

I have a feeling they would roll over in their graves if they saw what kind of people they died for at this point.

[njpilot 671]

Hi Joe !

 

Thanks for asking....

 

I am sure some will see these as very negative and giving up....LOL far from it !

 

1) National Firearms ID card

2) National CCW

3) Certification course in order to obtain # 1/ #2

4) Yearly proficiency check and re-certification

5) NO face to face sales without NICS check

6) magazine limit to 20 rounds in rifle and pistol nationwide

 

 

are just some of the things that I see as being a valid middle ground that preserves our rights and satiates those that would look to take them all...but what do I know...I have no balls according to some....... ha !

 

Oh yeah and also please feel free to ask my WHY on any of those and I will be happy to expand upon them..........

 

Nick, how would any of the things you've listed stop criminals or nut jobs from using guns to do bad? How would any of these things stop the next Columbine, Aurora or Sandy Hook.

 

With all due respect, these things just sound like "feel good" legislation that are power hungry politicians want to do to us already, that will have no effect on any gun related crimes, only affect law abiding citizens.

[Blacksmythe 71]

I just want to buy a damn magazine with a standard normal capacity with out paying for someone to alter it. I want to buy a rifle that looks the way it is supposed to. I went to a range in VA and the guys next to us said hey your brother is from Jersey , I said "Yea" . "What gave it away?" The old guy said "Your rifle and mag capacity." lol

I know no solider that is at least familiar with UCMJ that would follow any such order. EXCEPT IF THE CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS CHANGED!

[ruger9 0]

Smart ass....

 

W.T. Sherman warned Grant about getting into politics, he did'nt listen and look what happened to him.

 

Oh, the Totalitarianism thing, newsflash for ya. We're already there. I was wondering what the next step was.

 

Can you pick on Nick some more, I enjoyed watching you two. BTW, I think both of you have good points.

 

Wasn't trying to be a smart ass. Not at all. I was being dead serious. Just look at history to find out all about totalitarian governments, they were/are all over history.

 

And yes- we are dangerously close to it, with the recent NY state gun law being proof.

[mipafox 438]

Fire on US citizens?

 

We talkin' people from DC, NY, IL, what?

[JTQ911 2]

I hardly ever post here, but I felt compelled to after reading some of these posts......

 

1st. You CAN'T compromise on your basic human rights! Someone said it before, but 20 round magazines and yearly training sounds great now (assuming it stops the progressives from demanding more gun control in the present) but what happens after the next school shooting when a deranged family member steals guns with 20 round magazines and shoots 30 people? Then it will be 10 round magazines, 6 months training, etc etc.......With every compromise, we gain NOTHING, and lose more. Gain nothing, lose more.

 

2nd. I've never been on a two way range and I know very few who have. If it came to confiscation and rebellion, I don't know if I'd have the courage. If they came came to my door maybe I'd surrender what I have to live to fight another day. But I'll be damned if I don't believe there's a single Paul Revere or others of that caliber living in this country right now that would fight the good fight. Calling people out for saying they wouldn't stand up to law enforcement/federal agents/national guard just because its 2013 is naive. How does time change American patriots desire for freedom? Or is it being said there are no American patriots left? I know I don't buy that. It's hard to be the first to stand up for what you believe in, but once one does, mob mentality shows us many others will join. History shows us that it's ignorant to believe the US will live on forever the way as it is now. Between an internal revolution or attempted takeover from the outside, I'll put my money on internal revolution every time.

 

I don't know, there's so much fail going on in this thread right now maybe I'm all wrong. Maybe we are headed the way of England/Australia.

[RUTGERS95 890]

think about this, there are only 700k police in the United States. We have more gun owners than that in NJ alone. Going door to door is not gonna happen as it invites violence, tips their hand, and gives the 'opposition' time to prepare. A catalyst will be needed to truly turn public opinion however, that won't happen if we continue to teach our young and talk to people intelligently all the while bringing them to the range and showing them NOT to be afraid of the big bad black gun

[Silent Service 7]

Wasn't trying to be a smart ass. Not at all. I was being dead serious. Just look at history to find out all about totalitarian governments, they were/are all over history.

 

And yes- we are dangerously close to it, with the recent NY state gun law being proof.

 

You had me at "MY God man, study a little history". lol, I actually found it quite amusing. No worries.

 

Now back on topic. I suggest anyone who owns a weapon for self defense, anyone entering the military, or returning from war, pick up the very well written book "On Killing", by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. When we want to learn about math, history, rabbit hunting, engine repair or the latest flash in the pan celebrity, we do research. Well if you own weapons that you may some day have to use to kill, maybe you should do some research on that. I picked up Grossmans book because I want to understand the psychology leading up to pulling the trigger and the after effects once you shoot to kill, which I hope never to have to do.

 

How is this relevant to this thread? Grossman explains the psychlogical conditioning that makes our military more efficient at killing over the years. He breaks down the effects on the rifleman killing another human at close range vs. the pilot that kills the humans inside a tank. I think this pertains to, if factual, our troops training to kill U.S. Civilians. What insane third reich madman would be tasked with such a thing, even more disturbing, who could order it?

[RUTGERS95 890]

the main problem is we are fragmented and not unified instead, we rely on the NRA to fight all the battles. WE need our own grassroots minuteman movement.

 

Imagine thousands of cars stopping traffic like they do in Europe with the slogan, 'cars this time, with rifles next time'...you don't think that wouldn't get the attention of the elected elite? The thought of 10-100k people with rifles marching on a state or national capital is enough to make even the dead Napoleon shake

[MarkWVU02 47]

the main problem is we are fragmented and not unified instead, we rely on the NRA to fight all the battles. WE need our own grassroots minuteman movement.

 

Imagine thousands of cars stopping traffic like they do in Europe with the slogan, 'cars this time, with rifles next time'...you don't think that wouldn't get the attention of the elected elite? The thought of 10-100k people with rifles marching on a state or national capital is enough to make even the dead Napoleon shake

 

I would love to see every EBR owner march on Capitol hill.

[Malsua 1,422]

the main problem is we are fragmented and not unified instead, we rely on the NRA to fight all the battles. WE need our own grassroots minuteman movement.

 

Imagine thousands of cars stopping traffic like they do in Europe with the slogan, 'cars this time, with rifles next time'...you don't think that wouldn't get the attention of the elected elite? The thought of 10-100k people with rifles marching on a state or national capital is enough to make even the dead Napoleon shake

 

If they show up to my door asking for my firearms, they can have them. The police will be sold a bill of goods that what they are doing is righteous and lawful so that they won't feel like they're violating any oath and will feel glee "taking down that bad guy". This fantasy about running to the woods and playing Wolverines is just that, a fantasy. That's not how this will happen. The feds will just continue to slowly erode our rights over time. Death by a 1000 cuts.

 

There are many ways to resist, few involve firearms. Do you know what the weapon of choice of The Finnish winter war of 1939-40 was? The Molotov cocktail. It took out at least 80 tanks. My point is that no matter how hardened your opponent may be, he's got an unprotected soft underbelly. Figure out what it is and exploit it. If you start early enough, you can vote him out of a job.

[ruger9 0]

You had me at "MY God man, study a little history". lol, I actually found it quite amusing. No worries.

 

Now back on topic. I suggest anyone who owns a weapon for self defense, anyone entering the military, or returning from war, pick up the very well written book "On Killing", by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. When we want to learn about math, history, rabbit hunting, engine repair or the latest flash in the pan celebrity, we do research. Well if you own weapons that you may some day have to use to kill, maybe you should do some research on that. I picked up Grossmans book because I want to understand the psychology leading up to pulling the trigger and the after effects once you shoot to kill, which I hope never to have to do.

 

How is this relevant to this thread? Grossman explains the psychlogical conditioning that makes our military more efficient at killing over the years. He breaks down the effects on the rifleman killing another human at close range vs. the pilot that kills the humans inside a tank. I think this pertains to, if factual, our troops training to kill U.S. Civilians. What insane third reich madman would be tasked with such a thing, even more disturbing, who could order it?

 

Great tip. Thanks.

[RUTGERS95 890]

If they show up to my door asking for my firearms, they can have them. The police will be sold a bill of goods that what they are doing is righteous and lawful so that they won't feel like they're violating any oath and will feel glee "taking down that bad guy". This fantasy about running to the woods and playing Wolverines is just that, a fantasy. That's not how this will happen. The feds will just continue to slowly erode our rights over time. Death by a 1000 cuts.

 

There are many ways to resist, few involve firearms. Do you know what the weapon of choice of The Finnish winter war of 1939-40 was? The Molotov cocktail. It took out at least 80 tanks. My point is that no matter how hardened your opponent may be, he's got an unprotected soft underbelly. Figure out what it is and exploit it. If you start early enough, you can vote him out of a job.

 

with all due respect, if this is how you feel then you should just turn them in now. I have lived all over, know many high placed people in various areas that will have to choose should it come to this and in every discussion with said people, this is not how they think it would go down. Not only that, but only people in the liberal enclave of NY/NY/ and MA view it like this. You go to the Midwest, South, many parts of California of all places and the basin area and you can forget any turning over of firearms.

 

Also, never has a populace been disarmed over time. In ever instance it was fast and happened with military support to include the UK. For every gunman, LE requires about 20. You start to get pockets of resistance, gov'ts get nervous and infringe more which promotes greater violence and unease.

 

This has nothing to do with playing Wolverines but more about history, context and common sense.

[RUTGERS95 890]

one other thing people, upon reading many responses here, ALL POLITICS ARE LOCAL.........

 

NJ will not be the barometer for how people react to any mass effort of gov't taking firearms. I laugh at the stupidity of that notion

[Malsua 1,422]

with all due respect, if this is how you feel then you should just turn them in now. I have lived all over, know many high placed people in various areas that will have to choose should it come to this and in every discussion with said people, this is not how they think it would go down. Not only that, but only people in the liberal enclave of NY/NY/ and MA view it like this. You go to the Midwest, South, many parts of California of all places and the basin area and you can forget any turning over of firearms.

 

Also, never has a populace been disarmed over time. In ever instance it was fast and happened with military support to include the UK. For every gunman, LE requires about 20. You start to get pockets of resistance, gov'ts get nervous and infringe more which promotes greater violence and unease.

 

This has nothing to do with playing Wolverines but more about history, context and common sense.

 

You seem to have me confused with a liberal from the enclaves of NY and NJ.

[GlassFanta 0]

the elected elite

 

The elected are not the elite. They work for the elite.

 

Their job is to serve the interests of the elite, then take the subsequent heat for it by leading people like you to believe that the politicians are the elite.

 

[RUTGERS95 890]

You seem to have me confused with a liberal from the enclaves of NY and NJ.

 

not at all merely qualifying what my intended posts should mean.

 

I would wager gov't models propose at least 10% hard no to gun confiscation in the NE and 3x that in the South and West. That alone requires military aid and would be considerably tough given other variables.

 

I'm a realist, spent my life on wall street and never married a trade so I can see both sides of every coin fairly clearly. Everything a gov't would do here would be based on acceptable model evaluations of resistance......if it ever came to that

[Malsua 1,422]

I come from a rural Ohio family and lived in Ohio for 28 years on a farm before I came to NJ in the 90s. I have family in the hills and into Kentucky. Resisting when they come to the door means you've already lost. I know plenty of good ole boys who would shoot it out with cops. Those are the stupid ones and they'll lose. There won't be any irregular militia army formed and marching anywhere to do anything. They will single out people and overwhelm them. Would you shoot cops if your neighbor was getting raided? Probably not. Would they behave the same way? Probably so. So, here ya go, mr gun banner. Here's all my registered stuff, good luck to ya.

 

This does not mean I've given up. There are other ways to resist than sitting off 200 yards, taking a respiratory pause and squeezing the trigger. It won't be a shooting war until tanks are in the street and that will be long after they've gone door to door confiscating firearms.

[Silent Service 7]

20 round magazines and yearly training sounds great now (assuming it stops the progressives from demanding more gun control in the present) but what happens after the next school shooting when a deranged family member steals guns with 20 round magazines and shoots 30 people? Then it will be 10 round magazines, 6 months training

 

I am against magazine limits, not that I need a 30 or 45, but if I want one, well I should have one. (I wonder how many pairs of shoes Feinstein has in her closet, or Barney Frank for that matter). We already have a 15 round magazine limit, so I double stack. If the war comes, well I'm sure that some 30's could be procured.

I am for training. Have you ever been to a public Range? Training should at least be when you purchase a weapon for the first time. A brick mason apprentice doesnt lay bricks his first day, he mixes cement. Point is he is trained before he's cut loose on his own. Maybe the training should be for different types of guns too, hand gun, rifle, shotgun. I'd pay a premium for machine gun, and tank, A-10. Sorry, got carried away.

Maybe the training should be subsidized by the gun or ammo manufacturers and the NRA. I pay 27.50 for a hunting license so I can use the state rifle ranges. I don't mind paying it because it goes to range maintenence, the game wardens salary, conservation of the land, game management.

Think of the revenue that would be generated for ranges teaching people how to shoot safely, think about how well and how many Americans would be well trained. A well trained militia? Maybe we can get the training programs implemented into our high schools? Maybe we can get some of those kids that dont fit into football or cheer leading involved in an great sport. Whoa, how profound would that be ! An old timer told me they used to bring their guns to school so they could hunt game afterwards. What a obtuse change in times

After writing this, i had this thought. How come nobody in the upper echelons of the NRA or our Govt. hasnt brought that up? Instead its "lets ban this/that", well better ban ovens because people get burned on em before they are trained.

 

But I'll be damned if I don't believe there's a single Paul Revere or others of that caliber living in this country right now that would fight the good fight.

I think your romanticizing, not that thats bad, your passionate about what you hope for. I just don't think it will go down that way. If anything goes down at all.

We may be in the Arch Duke Ferdinand situation. If I recall right, he gets wacked and serbia and bosnia start fighting, (help me out here ruger9), then the other states get dragged in and escalates into WW1. California and Arizona have totally different political take on things, maybe Brewer will invade California. The only way our gov't is gonna change is going to be via a cataclysmic event. A Lee Harvey, yes, a Paul Revere, no. I am not advocating that, just stating my observation and opinion.

[Silent Service 7]

with all due respect, if this is how you feel then you should just turn them in now.

 

I think Malusa is a chess player, he's/she's not going to just hand them over unless confronted.

 

Oh, and he/she did bring up flaming cocktails. I imagine those would be the after intercourse drinks.

 

Can someone PM me the recipe. Please.