Legal magazine?

[sof 0]

I've read threads relating to this issue on the forum recently, and it seems that the NJ law regarding this is a bit fuzzy (imagine that) so what do you think?

I just got my CZ SP-01 and it came with two 19 round magazines. While I have two 14 round promags that I altered to have it lock the slide after the last round and function much smoother than stock, the CZ supplied mags are so nice looking with their extended butts that I decided to make them 'legal', so I welded a piece of metal stock that I had cut and shaped onto the butt plate. I welded it due to the thread that said it needs to be irreversible, and that welding rather than pins would fit the bill. It now accepts only 15 rounds, but if you went out and bought or made two regular butt plates and swapped them in for the welded ones, you could get it back to 19. I think that since these are permanently fixed to accept 15 and I have no other butt plates, it should be legal.  

I'd point out that just about any 15 round mag out there can be make to take at least one more round if you are willing to do a little altering so I don't see why these are any different than them now legally speaking. 

So, let's have some opinions.    

[PK90 3,573]

That would be legal.  Don't step over the tin-foil hat line and become one of those.

[ChrisJM981 924]

I don't want to jack your thread, but I've been contemplating doing something similar on my next trip out to see my brother in PA. If I epoxy or weld a block to the floorplate so I can still break down the magazine for cleaning and possibly spring replacement, would that still qualify as permanent?

[remixer 1,645]

Not sure i agree 100% it would be illegal.

 

If the mag needs to have the floor plate destroyed to undo the modifications i would think its legal.

 

If that were not the case then any modified mag including longer follower would be illegal.

 

any permanent modification even from the factory can be UNDONE depending on the skills of the person working on it.

 

Even a short 10 round mag can be modified to accept more if your willing to put in the work

[remixer 1,645]

Modding the body is an interesting idea. If that were possible it would be the best method.

 

i wonder if it were possible to dimple the magazine using a punch to limit how that would work. the follower would never be removed at that point but it would have limited capacity

[remixer 1,645]

Not unlike the base plates that PK90 supplied for the AR mags....once you remove the base plate you cannot add any other to it to make it higher capacity...

 

technically cant someone remove the Base plate and just shave it down to accept more rounds and reinstall?

 

I think the issue is no one knows the "LAW" as its open to interpretation.

 

Example. Midwest PX mags are widely accepted as legal but im sure someone can argue that also.

 

EDIT: I would say midwest are legal

[ChrisJM981 924]

I have Magpul pmags from different vendors and the spring tension is very different. I think that is preventing the bolt catch from working as intended.

[sof 0]

One of the biggest reasons I did it this way is so it can be cleaned easily. I don't see how you could make enough of a dimple in the mag body to stop the follower, but I didn't really look at it that way so now I will.

My point on the mod I did is that I don't have possess the unmodified plates nor do I even have them elsewhere so how could I change it back. Not owning the plates is like not owning the hicaps if you know what I mean. If you have to go out and buy something you could go out and buy hicaps just as easily.

[raz-0 1,260]

Personally.. And this is not legal advise.. I would not consider it legal.....

 

I would submit to you the body needs to be modified to NOT accept any other new plates.... Only the ones that have the block welded to it.... I would weld that plate on.. Or modify the body of the magazine....

 

Ymmv

 

 

Under the provisions and regulatory advice of the federal AWB, I would agree with you. However NJ law has never been that clear cut, and administrative advice on the matter has changed over time. However, your advice would mean nobody should own a glock 19 mag or a 15 round M&P 40 mag as they are a replacement floor plate away from not being in compliance. and thus their 15 round spiritual essence is constantly in peril from sinful temptations of after market accessories. 

 

Yes, your position is more easily dependable in court, but at the same time, it is more restrictive than state law has clearly permitted to date. With a tig welder, some hand tools, and some skill, no magazine has a fixed volume. 

 

That being said, the OPs idea of capacity reducing floor plates are not necessarily a good idea. if someone takes issue with them you better be prepared for a hard defense and have ABSOLUTLEY no parts remotely arguable as belonging to you that could be used to show constructive intent. 

[halbautomatisch 60]

Nowhere in the LAW (2C) does it say a mag must be permanently blocked. Only in the Administrative Code (title 13, which is an Attorney General's interpretation of 2C) does it say that mags need to be permanently blocked. Dealers need to be concerned with what the AC says because they can get their license yanked if the break the rules set forth in the AC. The OP is not a dealer, and him getting charged with having a "high cap" mag is unlikely since he did not violate the LAW  under 2C. in order for a prosecutor to get a conviction in a case like this, the prosecutor would have to convince a judge that wording of the law under 2C (the AC is not relevant in a trial) really means the mag needs to be permanently blocked - a reach at best, and if the prosecution loses, they have just created a new precedent that mags do not need to be permanently blocked, something the prosecutors offices and the AG do not want.

 

That being said - this is NJ, and the activist judges in this state are capable of anything.

[raz-0 1,260]

Nowhere in the LAW (2C) does it say a mag must be permanently blocked. Only in the Administrative Code (title 13, which is an Attorney General's interpretation of 2C) does it say that mags need to be permanently blocked. Dealers need to be concerned with what the AC says because they can get their license yanked if the break the rules set forth in the AC. The OP is not a dealer, and him getting charged with having a "high cap" mag is unlikely since he did not violate the LAW  under 2C. in order for a prosecutor to get a conviction in a case like this, the prosecutor would have to convince a judge that wording of the law under 2C (the AC is not relevant in a trial) really means the mag needs to be permanently blocked - a reach at best, and if the prosecution loses, they have just created a new precedent that mags do not need to be permanently blocked, something the prosecutors offices and the AG do not want.

 

That being said - this is NJ, and the activist judges in this state are capable of anything.

 

And what will really happen is you will be offered a plea that eliminates your 2A rights right off the bat and they will try to bully you into it. That's the SOP as far as I can tell for the generally law abiding type who gets screwed on just compliance details. Lawyer up and don't take that deal. I also know several people who are still NJ eligible after going through that crap. 

 

You get snagged while breaking other laws... well, sucks to be you. 

[PK90 3,573]

IMHO, one can not be charged with a Admin Code offense.

[vladtepes 1,060]

at the end of the day we are ALL guessing because as pointed out there is no clarity on what is OK..

 

what is clear is the intention.. the intention is to disallow anything that can function as a large capacity magazine...

large capacity magazines are illegal...PERIOD...

that means.. in clear language you can NOT have a large capacity magazine...

 

 

what can you do? you can have ANY mag that is NOT a large capacity magazine...  that means IMO that it is ONLY NOT a large capacity magazine if you can not revert it back to a large capacity mag... IMO if you can modify it back to a large capacity mag without destroying the mag it is STILL a large capacity mag... I have this opinion because the state has said that and temporary change is inadequate.. 

 

there is NO standard for what is OK.. the only standard is that temporary is NOT OK... 

[ChrisJM981 924]

It says "knowingly has a high capacity magazine". If I modify the magazine to hold only 15 rounds, I knowingly have a 15 rd magazine. I might need to imbed the block into the floor plate somehow, so that if it was attempted to take it apart it would be rendered unusable. I was going along with the spirit of the law.

[halbautomatisch 60]

AC 13:54 describes the FPID requirements, Permit to purchase requirements, witnesses, fingerprints, duplicates, revocation, appeal, and firearms ownership by will and death.  We must follow these requirements.  If you think only part of 13:54 will be brought up in court, and the remainder of AC 13:54 applies only to dealers...   all I have to say is "good luck with that in court."

No, we must follow these requirements because they written into the actual law under 2C:58-3

 

[1LtCAP 4,265]

ok......so from what i'm seeing above, i cannot install a block in my magazines, then pin them in place? or jbweld the floorplate on?

 

 what do you guys do to modify your ar mags? i often see ads for 15/20 pmags. i'm presuming those are 20 rounders modified to take only 15 rounds? how do you modify them? are you allowed to do it yourself, or do you have to have a gunsmith do it for you? same questions for ak pmags.

 

 thanks!

[1LtCAP 4,265]

part of why i'm asking, is because i don't see any 15 rounder built for either of those guns. the 10 rounders are friggin silly looking when mounted. and a bit harder to grab. i'd much rather have a 20 or 30 round mag modified to comply, even if it is just for looks.

[sof 0]

If what I read is true, a mag that was permanently modified by a gunsmith is legal. The rest is questionable and as you see from the above there are a lot of correct answers.

[H&K40Cal 0]

I seriously doubt that they would compare the craftsmanship of a blocked magazine to see if it was done by a gunsmith. As long as they don't exceed 15 rounds I think your good. Who's to say you didn't purchase them from an online store or at a local gun show. All you knew was that they were 15 round magazines you don't need the work history of the person that pinned them.

[n4p226r 105]

i think the whole mag thing is ridiculous.  i would assume you would win in court if you had a magazine that they couldnt put 16 rounds into no matter how it was modified.  its really a stupid law.  because it essentially makes 15rd 40cal magazines for guns that can shoot 9mm (like the glocks) illegal even if you dont own 9mm.  the sig classic 22 slide comes with 10 round magazines.  you can buy aftermarket followers, springs, and spring plate pins that make it hold 16 rounds.  does that make that it illegal.

 

https://www.collectors-society-slabs.com/shoppingcart/products/Package-Deal-%252d-%281%29-Spring%2C-%281%29-Short--Mag-Plug-and-%281%29-Stainless-steel-Guide-Rod.html

 

i have heard that you may be able to get 16 rounds in there.  

[vladtepes 1,060]

i think the whole mag thing is ridiculous.  i would assume you would win in court if you had a magazine that they couldnt put 16 rounds into no matter how it was modified.  its really a stupid law.  because it essentially makes 15rd 40cal magazines for guns that can shoot 9mm (like the glocks) illegal even if you dont own 9mm.  the sig classic 22 slide comes with 10 round magazines.  you can buy aftermarket followers, springs, and spring plate pins that make it hold 16 rounds.  does that make that it illegal.

 

https://www.collectors-society-slabs.com/shoppingcart/products/Package-Deal-%252d-%281%29-Spring%2C-%281%29-Short--Mag-Plug-and-%281%29-Stainless-steel-Guide-Rod.html

 

i have heard that you may be able to get 16 rounds in there.  

 

 

that is correct.. per the letter of the law those 40 mags ARE illegal..