How did this Societal/Cultural change happen?

[Combat Auto 174]

Music is a reflection of society, or perhaps, vis versa...The change from the 60's to "now" is dramatic, albiet we are taking 50 years. Still, perhapes as big a jump as ever in musical change over that legnth of time. What does this say to you?

 

 

1960's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0166KpAhs

I was about 10 years old then but all the memories of the 60's are vivid.

 

 

Now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAiUgFCHI4s

 

 

 

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

the answer is simple...

our society made it too easy to not work and still survive... 

if you don't work you have way too much time to get into shit.. 

that apathy was passed on and amplified... 

 

and eventually you end up with a useless... lazy apathetic.. pathetic culture.. 

[Vini 0]

our society made it too easy to not work and still survive... 

 

and eventually you end up with a useless... lazy apathetic.. pathetic culture.. 

 

right on the spot

[Combat Auto 174]

Music is a reflection of society, or perhaps, vis versa...The change from the 60's to "now" is dramatic, albiet we are taking 50 years. Still, perhapes as big a jump as ever in musical change over that legnth of time. What does this say to you?

 

 

1960's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0166KpAhs

I was about 10 years old then but all the memories of the 60's are vivid.

 

 

Now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAiUgFCHI4s

Words I associate with the fist video are: Warm, happy, uplifting, hopeful.

 

Words I associante with the second video are: Filth, hate, chip on a sholder, violance.

 

Needless to say, I don't see anything positive about this change, or the implied reflection on our culture.

[olderguy 0]

I was too old for the "sex, drugs, and rock and roll", my period was "motherhood and apple pie".  I would take either of them over what we have now, along with the REALLY BAD original rock and roll..

[vladtepes 1,060]

also just to add.. the second video.. its entertainment.. and is of no way an indication of life.. and the whole "thug" culture is a product of people turning to crime in urban areas.. "gangster rap" did not create crime... I listen to all types of music.. and hard rap is included in that... rapping about selling drugs.. shooting at people... but I have no interest in doing either of those things.. I also watch ultra violent movies.. and play video games with violence.. but hey... no ill effects...  

 

people sometimes blame things like rap music for kids being all screwed up... but that is just shirking accountability.. 

 

kids are screwed up because they are not being raised correctly.. its that simple.. 

[djg0770 481]

kids are screwed up because they are not being raised correctly.. its that simple.. 

[Albanian 121]

You're only hearing the best of those back in the day. Not all if it. Biased sample. Also Eminem is simply great.

[Combat Auto 174]

You're only hearing the best of those back in the day. Not all if it. Biased sample.

Not really..Roni Spector's music was typical of that ganra at that time. Not to say that the 60s weren't politically messed up - they sure were...But I still hold to the notion that there has been a big societal change (as reflected in these two typical samples spanning a 1/2 of centry (amazing!))...It is up to each individual to decide if it is better or worse.

[blksheep 466]

Kids these days...

[Cmor1701d 0]

Wow, seriously. Ask your parents (if they're still around) what they thought of the music you listened to as a teenager. Every generation finds their own music 50s, 60's; 70's,89's 90's.... Every generation found their own music. And their parents hated it

[checko 180]

You're taking one song and assigning it to an entire nations culture? Thats taking quite the liberty no? I'd hate to see what you would think of the music I listen to.

 

Wow, seriously. Ask your parents (if they're still around) what they thought of the music you listened to as a teenager. Every generation finds their own music 50s, 60's; 70's,89's 90's.... Every generation found their own music. And their parents hated it

This. I'm sure the parents loved the whorish, drug addicted lifestyles some young adults led in the 60's. It wasn't all butterflies and taking little Mary to the dance.

 

 

Want to take a guess as to what this song is about?

[vladtepes 1,060]

music... movies.... and all that aside.... 

our society has taken a rapid plunge into the garbage... but the blame has not a thing to do with entertainment.. 

[Combat Auto 174]

^^^Maybe, maybe not, that is a seperate discussion.

 

This Thread:

I would say that music is a reflection of society - and this reflection is apparent in the 2 representitive examples I posted...Amazingly apparent I would say...

[RubberBullets 65]

^^^Maybe, maybe not, that is a seperate discussion.

 

This Thread:

I would say that music is a reflection of society - and this reflection is apparent in the 2 representitive examples I posted...Amazingly apparent I would say...

 

Yeah... I think you picking one song versus another cannot accurately (or at all) describe a decade of society. The late 60s had in fact ushered in the sex drugs and rock and roll mantra. There was still crime, poverty, murders (which was higher back then) There are plenty of very good songs out there today to reference that dont need to cite violence, drugs, death. Im sure if I dug around a bit id find a real polished turd from the 60s era as well.

 

Music genres *may* serve as a small reflection of a society, but even that is a small sample size depicting life of a high crime urban environment and not indicative of a society in general.

 

This is a "Get off my lawn" thread

[vladtepes 1,060]

^^^Maybe, maybe not, that is a seperate discussion.

 

This Thread:

I would say that music is a reflection of society - and this reflection is apparent in the 2 representitive examples I posted...Amazingly apparent I would say...

 

 

no.. im telling you.. I am telling you I have fairly high moral standard... I care about others... I work hard... don't take hand outs.. and i listen to the most god awful hardcore rap music you could ever imagine... what I watch on TV... what I listen to at the gym while working out.. it does not define me... my actions define me...my actions are what matter..

[Combat Auto 174]

no.. im telling you.. I am telling you I have fairly high moral standard... I care about others... I work hard... don't take hand outs.. and i listen to the most god awful hardcore rap music you could ever imagine... what I watch on TV... what I listen to at the gym while working out.. it does not define me... my actions define me...my actions are what matter..

OK fair enough good data pt - I take it you feel you are a typical sample of  "Joe-the-plumber" type of guy ;-)...

 

So perhapes the question we should be asking is: What has driven the tasts over the last 50 years, where we went from The Oldies but goodies genra to gagnster-Rap - hard core-genra?...I think you would agree, there was no market for the latter back in the 60s...Or the 70s..or 80ss...WTH do people find joy/benifit in ganster-rap? Is it just part of our WWF type of Society? (WWF-world wresteling federation) Or some deeper drive, perhapes outlet, or who knows hate?.

[vladtepes 1,060]

OK fair enough good data pt - I take it you feel you are a typical sample of  "Joe-the-plumber" type of guy ;-)...

 

So perhapes the question we should be asking is: What has driven the tasts over the last 50 years, where we went from The Oldies but goodies genra to gagnster-Rap - hard core-genra?...I think you would agree, there was no market for the latter back in the 60s...Or the 70s..or 80ss...WTH do people find joy/benifit in ganster-rap? Is it just part of our WWF type of Society? (WWF-world wresteling federation) Or some deeper drive, perhapes outlet, or who knows hate?.

 

Just to be clear.. I do not just listen to rap.. it is not all my interests are in.. I love a ton of music... I have a huge variety of music... everything from levi lowrey to nine inch nails to roy orbison..  as far as what drove the tastes from one genre to another? who knows.. tastes change over time.. people always want to do something different... entertainment has driven to shock value over time.. but that always happens.. for example.. the generation before you is almost always more conservative.. the next generation breaks boundaries and things move forward being "more shocking".. our society now is VERY high shock.. so I am sure that has something to do with it... but again that in itself will not drive people to do stupid shit... I watch awful horrible horror movies.. but I never think to myself oh man I should chop people up with a chainsaw.. lol 

[SgtToadette 59]

People have been saying the same exact thing since the dawn of civilization.

 

"The next generation is always reckless and irresponsible."

 

"The next generation is always rude and doesn't respect their elders."

 

"The next generation has no respect for tradition."

 

Blah, blah, blah...

 

I hate to break it to you, but if we want to start blaming a group of people for a perceived "rapid social decline" (because apparently it's always someone's fault) it's the generation of people who've been running the show right now. Not just the Dems, but Republicans, too.

 

Liberalism is often painted here as a flawed mindset here because, well, it's easy to scapegoat it when there's no differing opinion. There are a lot of really smart liberals who know what they're talking about better than 99% of people here (myself included). Being divisive for the self-satisfaction of pushing problems onto one group of people in an effort to clear your conscious is intellectually irresponsible.

 

Conservatism isn't always peachy either. Anyone who commits blindly to one particular school of thought and then demonizes the other half of their self-created dichotomy is, at best, naive.

 

Maybe "kids" today wouldn't be so upset with the system if their predecessors hadn't screwed it up. Deregulation of banking institutions and decreasing corporate responsibility birthed the concept of "to big to fail" and changed the architecture of the economy to a house of cards.

 

But apparently I'm all wrong and it's really Jay-Z's fault. Who'da thunk it?

[Combat Auto 174]

People have been saying the same exact thing since the dawn of civilization.

 

"The next generation is always reckless and irresponsible."

 

"The next generation is always rude and doesn't respect their elders."

 

"The next generation has no respect for tradition."

 

Blah, blah, blah...

 

I hate to break it to you, but if we want to start blaming a group of people for a perceived "rapid social decline" (because apparently it's always someone's fault) it's the generation of people who've been running the show right now. Not just the Dems, but Republicans, too.

 

Liberalism is often painted here as a flawed mindset here because, well, it's easy to scapegoat it when there's no differing opinion. There are a lot of really smart liberals who know what they're talking about better than 99% of people here (myself included). Being divisive for the self-satisfaction of pushing problems onto one group of people in an effort to clear your conscious is intellectually irresponsible.

 

Conservatism isn't always peachy either. Anyone who commits blindly to one particular school of thought and then demonizes the other half of their self-created dichotomy is, at best, naive.

 

Maybe "kids" today wouldn't be so upset with the system if their predecessors hadn't screwed it up. Deregulation of banking institutions and decreasing corporate responsibility birthed the concept of "to big to fail" and changed the architecture of the economy to a house of cards.

 

But apparently I'm all wrong and it's really Jay-Z's fault. Who'da thunk it?

Wow...You filled in all the dot's; were I didn't say a word - just posted two samples of music over 50 years...Hum, perhapes your right about JZ ;-).

[SgtToadette 59]

Wow...You filled in all the dot's; were I didn't say a word - just posted two samples of music over 50 years...Hum, perhapes your right about JZ ;-).

 

If I understood your "dots" correctly, it was the comparing of two (for all intents and purposes) random songs and finding a pareidolic connection that conforms to your worldview, yes?

[CMJeepster 2,781]

I blame Oprah.

[SgtToadette 59]

I blame Oprah.

 

[Combat Auto 174]

And on Socializm/libralism i would sum it up this way (not my quote): The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

 

Just ask anyone who has survived socializm by fleeing a forien country and now lives here. I know many such people.

 

No point in wasting time with any details on this, nobody's mind changes based on NJGF discussions ;-).

 

This thread was more along the lines of how pop-musical generas and sociatal values reflect each other...

[SgtToadette 59]

And on Socializm/libralism i would sum it up this way (not my quote): The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

 

Just ask anyone who has survived socializm by fleeing a forien country and now lives here. I know many such people.

 

No point in wasting time with any details on this, nobody's mind changes based on NJGF discussions ;-).

 

This thread was more along the lines of how pop-musical generas and sociatal values reflect each other...

 

If socialism and liberalism meant the same thing they wouldn't be two different words.

[Combat Auto 174]

Modern American liberalism combines social liberalism with support for social justice and a mixed economy. American liberal causes include voting rights for African Americans, abortion rights for women, gay rights and government programs such as education and health care.^[1] It has its roots in Theodore Roosevelt's New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, Harry S. Truman's Fair Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier, and Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society. Conservatives oppose liberals on most issues; the relationship between liberal and progressive is debated.^{[2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Keynesian economic theory has played a central role in the economic philosophy of modern American liberals.^[8] The argument has been that national prosperity requires government management of the macroeconomy, to keep unemployment low, inflation in check, and growth high.^[8]

 

============

so·cial·ism

/ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/  Show Spelled [soh-shuh-liz-uhm]  Show IPA

noun

1.

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2.

procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

 

 

So, See above, Libralism includes many things about rights of various groups, some I agree with some I do not...But Libralism also includes (see above) government management of the economy, and that is where it ovelaps with Socializm...So although they are not exactly the same, Libralizm encompases Socialism in essence (perhapes socialism-lite).

 

There are plenty of variations of the Libralism definition out there. What is yours SGT-T?

[DeerSlayer 241]

anyone else here share this thought?

 

The media in many ways has changed the way people act. I was born in the late 70's. As a kid I remember having 12 channels before cable was even available where we lived. (I Want My MTV!) If you wanted the news you went to the front porch and brought the paper inside and read it. Or waited till the 6 o'clock or 10 o'clock news came on. It was an hour long. They had no time to share their individual opinions with us, just the facts that what the news is supposed to give us, right?

 

So here comes the cable news channels 24-7-365. Well now they have all day and night to fill instead of two hours a day. What do they fill it with? Facts? News? Whats really happening? No they fill it with 30 min of news and 24.5 hours of opinion (mostly extremely liberal left wing) and other garbage. Thanks but ill take the facts and formulate my own opinion. Unfortunately many Americans have allowed the media to think for them these days. Very sad to me.

 

IMO is what has changed the way society thinks. And has a lot to do with why times are so different between the 60's and now. People are afraid to let their fat, lazy, disrespectful, disobedient, video game vegging, anti bullying, brats out of the house to enjoy a normal childhood. There aren't any more crazys out there now then there were when I was a kid. Just more media hype about it, to scare the crap out of people. Why because they have nothing better to talk about for an entire day. When i was a kid our parents kicked us outside to play alone, "dont talk to strangers" worked for me. You knew if your parents found out you did talk to a stranger your ass was grass. Kids dont have that fear of parents any longer. The only way to change things is to start with the next generation, if we screw that up its hopeless for us & them.

 

Here is a song from that past era people raising children should listen to.

 

[SgtToadette 59]

So, See above, Libralism includes many things about rights of various groups, some I agree with some I do not...But Libralism also includes (see above) government management of the economy, and that is where it ovelaps with Socializm...So although they are not exactly the same, Libralizm encompases Socialism in essence (perhapes socialism-lite).

 

There are plenty of variations of the Libralism definition out there. What is yours SGT-T?

 

Thanks for the lecture.

 

Such a vague overlap clearly links the two concepts irrevocably and no liberal minded person could ever not believe every tenet of socialism. [/sarcasm]

 

The comparison of liberalism to socialism is about as fair as comparing conservatism to anarchism. In modern politics, the word socialism is used as a divisive political buzz word used by right-wing commentators to create an emotional reaction in their audience. It has a literal meaning, but is rarely used that way in modern politics.

 

There are certainly some things that government should largely be in control of and provide for the people. At the same time, there are things that government should be restricted in being involved in. Those determinations should be made on an issue to issue basis rather than on the tenets of a broad philosophy that people self-identify with.

 

But we're getting off topic. Your OP compared two very selective music pieces and implied that they each represented their respective time periods. The sampling was poor and hardly definitive or indicative of anything.

[charleslee 45]

Vlad said:also just to add.. the second video.. its entertainment.. and is of no way an indication of life.. and the whole "thug" culture is a product of people turning to crime in urban areas.. "gangster rap" did not create crime... I listen to all types of music.. and hard rap is included in that... rapping about selling drugs.. shooting at people... but I have no interest in doing either of those things.. I also watch ultra violent movies.. and play video games with violence.. but hey... no ill effects...

 

people sometimes blame things like rap music for kids being all screwed up... but that is just shirking accountability..

 

kids are screwed up because they are not being raised correctly.. its that simple..

 

If anyone thinks that violence in movies & video games doesn't in turn cause violence, they're nuts. Maybe not movies so much but video games. Look at the puke in Conn. He played them. Granted many do & don't commit violence but they've done studies & the games have a negative impact. Did we have all these mass shootings in the 50's. NO. .60's? NO. Are there other contributors? Sure but you can't tell me that all the ultra violence in the video games & the crap spewed in some music is helping.

[Combat Auto 174]

Thanks for the lecture.

 

Such a vague overlap clearly links the two concepts irrevocably and no liberal minded person could ever not believe every tenet of socialism. [/sarcasm]

 

The comparison of liberalism to socialism is about as fair as comparing conservatism to anarchism. In modern politics, the word socialism is used as a divisive political buzz word used by right-wing commentators to create an emotional reaction in their audience. It has a literal meaning, but is rarely used that way in modern politics.

 

There are certainly some things that government should largely be in control of and provide for the people. At the same time, there are things that government should be restricted in being involved in. Those determinations should be made on an issue to issue basis rather than on the tenets of a broad philosophy that people self-identify with.

 

But we're getting off topic. Your OP compared two very selective music pieces and implied that they each represented their respective time periods. The sampling was poor and hardly definitive or indicative of anything.

I've noticed when discussing several items with you over the last few weeks, you are full of opinions, but empty on facts, supporting eveidence, or refereneces....This is usually why it is a wast of time debating such things on the "internet"; I offered you an opening to support your position and you havn't included anythink but an opinion, tainted with bias against "right-wing-comintators". Your the one who brought up libralism and defended it as (Not) a cause of the societies problems....I posted well accepted references of Librealism and socialism, and the nexus of these two isms is indeed government programs, redishdribution of wealth, and government contol. Do they vary in degress, perhapes, but they are both on the same vector, leading in the same direction. Economics 101: See, the bigger the government gets, the less resources are available for economic growth, jobs, etc...The bigger the goverent gets, the more you will have inefeciencies in the economy...The bigger the government gets, the more curruption (IRS scandle), and waste (see Food stamp post) you will have...Libralism can't survive without big government, it's needed to support the big-spending libral programs.

 

Now that is my lecture (as you sarcastically said).