Basic Shooting Question

[PDM 91]

I've been shooting for 6 years now.  I've taken a number of pistol courses, basic through advanced, and have a pretty good grasp of the fundamentals.  I am, however, still having trouble shooting quickly with accuracy.  How do I practice so that when I press the gun out from a low ready position or after a holster draw the sights are already lined up or close to being lined up?  I've read about "natural point of aim" but I'm not sure how that applies in terms of practice and shooting proficiency.  To complicate things a bit, I shoot right handed but am left-eye dominant which means I need to turn my head quite a bit to get a good sight picture.  I shoot using a modified isosceles stance, with my left foot forward and body "bladed" slightly -- almost a cross between a chapman and isosceles stance -- to help line up the sights.  That may be part of the reason it takes longer for me to get a good sight picture.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

There was an article by by Massad Ayoob a few years ago that was interesting re: cross dominance:

 

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+cross-dominant+eyes%3A+corrections+are+easy.-a0166750494

 

I hold the pistol almost gangsta-style.  Takes practice.

[alec.mc 180]

I've been shooting for 6 years now.  I've taken a number of pistol courses, basic through advanced, and have a pretty good grasp of the fundamentals.  I am, however, still having trouble shooting quickly with accuracy.  How do I practice so that when I press the gun out from a low ready position or after a holster draw the sights are already lined up or close to being lined up?  I've read about "natural point of aim" but I'm not sure how that applies in terms of practice and shooting proficiency.  To complicate things a bit, I shoot right handed but am left-eye dominant which means I need to turn my head quite a bit to get a good sight picture.  I shoot using a modified isosceles stance, with my left foot forward and body "bladed" slightly -- almost a cross between a chapman and isosceles stance -- to help line up the sights.  That may be part of the reason it takes longer for me to get a good sight picture.

 

 

It's all about muscle memory, and practicing over and over and over until you can literally do it with your eyes close. Draw present the gun, open your eyes, and your lined up on target ( or pretty damn close )

 

Keep your body flat facing the target, feet squared at shoulders head straight up , both eyes open.  

[alec.mc 180]

Also, i'm cross eye dominant as well - RIght handed, left eye dominant, it took me a good while to learn to shoot with both eyes open, but after I did I noticed a large bump in my speed and accuracy. Though, i'll sometimes turn my head very slightly to the right to better line up my left eye.

 

Come out to one of the Steel challenge matches at either old bridge or cjrpc, the whole match is about your speed of the draw and how fast you can pick up targets, a few of those matches under your belt you'll know exactly where your trouble areas are and what to work on, plus - being able to observe other shooters and talk with them is a great help.  

[alec.mc 180]

Check out this video from Jerry M, I know its mostly a revolver video, but around the 12 minute mark he talks about stance.

 

[PDM 91]

Thanks guys.  The Ayoob article was very helpful.  I do indeed shoot rifle and shotgun leftie as there really is no way to compensate fro cross-dom.  I will practice more at home with dry firing to help get sights on target more quickly.  I've found that the old saying "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" to be very true, but much easier said than done.

[Vlad G 345]

Go to some steel shooting matches. I don't have the time to shoot steel matches anymore, but they are one of the best ways to learn this. The immediate feedback of the steel ring, the various size targets at various distances and the time pressure teach you a LOT about sight acquisition, transitions and speed vs accuracy.  

[AverageJoe 95]

Thanks guys.  The Ayoob article was very helpful.  I do indeed shoot rifle and shotgun leftie as there really is no way to compensate fro cross-dom.  I will practice more at home with dry firing to help get sights on target more quickly.  I've found that the old saying "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" to be very true, but much easier said than done.

I'm RHS - LED...shoot rifles righty as well...my rifles are all set up for my right eye.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

It's all about muscle memory! When I coached Little League I made a wooden box the size of the strike zone for the kids, filled it with home insulation, and sat it on top of a cinder block. I told the kids for each strike I threw with my eyes CLOSED, they would run a lap. Well, they quickly got VERY tired! Now if only I can get that good with handguns! 

[Vlad G 345]

I'll disagree, it is not about muscle memory (which is not something I really believe in the way some people mean it) its is all about vision. Shooting is almost entirely about vision, specially when shooting fast. You need to learn what you need to see to make the hit. Shooting fast is not about perfect sigh alignment, it is about seeing ENOUGH to make the shot you need to make. There is almost no way to really learn that in dryfire. You can practice it with dryfire, you can't learn it that way.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^  

 

Cute story Mike, and drives the point home.  You and Alec and Vlad hit the nail on the head!

 

I'll just add this:  Hand size vs. grip size and ANGLE on the grip!  You need the gun to "fit" right and feel right.  Don't get hung-up with "pretty" guns, and grips.  Instead, use grip tape when needed, don't be afraid to take an exacto knife to the edge of a grip to cut some "meat" off (OMG it might look like a POS, but you'll shoot straight), and lastly, since you didn't mention which gun, can we presume that you also have to overcome the L-O-N-G pull of a striker-fired gun with or without inter-changable grips?

 

One other thing to consider is the natural point-ability of some guns vs. others.  Since not everybody is built the same way, some guns have a "better" personal grip angle than others.  Sometimes changing platforms solves problems (buy a different gun that "fits" you), sometimes it's learning trigger control so when ignition occurs the sights are actually lined-up instead of being pulled off-target.  Going to league events, shooting other folk's guns and being watched by experienced eyes can tell you what needs to change.  And Use the FORCE, close your eyes with an empty gun and see where you wind-up.

 

Keep an open mind and enjoy the ride.

 

Dave

[AverageJoe 95]

Eyes are muscles. You can "train" them to focus faster. When you can see your target faster, your reaction time will follow. Look at a Top Fuel dragster driver...seeing the green light then reacting the way they do doesn't happen overnight. Muscle memory is very much in play there...and with shooting. When a movement is repeated over and over... over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems.

[Vlad G 345]

It isn't memory, it is exercise. You don't build muscle memory in your biceps by doing curls, you just build the muscle. Indeed you can train the eyes but at the end of the day shooting well is done with extreme conscious involvement.

 

I do recommend people read Brian Enos's book on the subject, shooting fast and accurate is a very involved process of hyper-awareness when done really well. 

[2Alpha 6]

Getting your front sight to index properly from the draw will take a good amount of dry fire practice.  Draw the gun with your eyes closed.  Open your eyes, is the front sight in the notch?  Are the sights on target?  Make small adjustments until they are.  Eventually the gun will go where you point it.

 

Once you have the index down, you can shoot faster because you no longer need to make adjustments to you sight picture. 

 

Then you get into recoil control, seeing faster, acceptable sight picture and shooting subconsciously

 

Also, don't bring your eyes to the gun, bring the gun to your eye

[PDM 91]

All very good advice. 2alpha your advice seems spot on. I will do much more dry fire practice. I get the point about vision, but my problem is that my sight are only sometimes lined up after my draw. It usually take half a second or so to adjust the gun after I've extended my arms which is an eternity.

 

As for guns, I shot my sign p226, hk p2000 and sig 1911 a few days ago. The 1911 was far and away easiest to shoot quickly and accurately, not because of the lighter trigger but because it just pointed the most naturally. Makes me think that a 1911 is not a bad choice for carry notwithstanding the manual safety.

[pbkid6974 1]

is this for defensive purposes or for some sort of game/match? a fast defensive shot should never really be be aimed in the traditional sense. it will always more likely be a point and shoot scenario. point center mass, hit center mass. anything more than that and you're probably already dead. after the initial shot(s) you assess and then aim your follow up shots if need be.

[2Alpha 6]

is this for defensive purposes or for some sort of game/match? a fast defensive shot should never really be be aimed in the traditional sense. it will always more likely be a point and shoot scenario. point center mass, hit center mass. anything more than that and you're probably already dead. after the initial shot(s) you assess and then aim your follow up shots if need be.

 

If you have time to bring the gun to eye level, then you have time to aim.

[AverageJoe 95]

It isn't memory, it is exercise. You don't build muscle memory in your biceps by doing curls, you just build the muscle. Indeed you can train the eyes but at the end of the day shooting well is done with extreme conscious involvement.

 

I do recommend people read Brian Enos's book on the subject, shooting fast and accurate is a very involved process of hyper-awareness when done really well. 

 

I have to respectfully disagree. Using curls as the example, you're creating muscle memory...by doing constant curls, you can/will create fast twitch muscle fibers. If one stops curling for a prolong period of time, those fast twitch fibers can start to slow down(slow twitch)...once the curls are reintroduced, "muscle memory" bounces back those fast twitch muscle fibers, and jump starts the building process. Same goes with shooting, If Bob Mundan or Jerry Miculek stopped shooting for 10 years, they would not be able to instantly shoot like they did before stopping, they would have to retrain themselves, muscle memory would bounce em back real quick.

 

One can have the hyper-awareness, but if its not paired with the ability to apply using motor skills, it wont work.

 

Im being summoned to play Uno lmao

[blksheep 466]

I don't believe in eye dominance. Right eye or left eye it doesn't matter. Keep your head straight and adjust the gun and align the sights to your eyes.

[checko 180]

^^^ agreed. I'm cross eye dominant (right hand left eye) and I don't tilt the gun or my head. I have NO issues using a long gun with either eye. I would always use my right for rifles before I knew about dominance and I just learned to use it.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I don't believe in eye dominance. Right eye or left eye it doesn't matter. Keep your head straight and adjust the gun and align the sights to your eyes.

 

I don't know if this is "dominance" or not, but I have a slight astigmatism in the right eye, and shoot much more accurately with the left.  The veiw certainly is straighter. And I'm right handed  

[blksheep 466]

You got most of the problem solved. Relaxed grip and trigger control and your good to go!

[2Alpha 6]

You got most of the problem solved. Relaxed grip and trigger control and your good to go!

 

I wouldn't go with a relaxed grip if you want quick follow up shots.  A nice strong neutral grip works the best

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I will agree with others it's more about visual memory then muscle. I got pretty proficient pulling a pistol or rifle from rest and getting on target with both eyes open. Started hunting this year with a shotgun and boy am I having difficulty with out a rear site to use as a reference point. I actually reverted back to one eye open so I could start to hit my target to start imprinting the visual cues in my dominate eye. I started squinting my secondary eye this week and hopefully soon I will be back to both eyes open.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I don't know if this is "dominance" or not, but I have a slight astigmatism in the right eye, and shoot much more accurately with the left. The veiw certainly is straighter. And I'm right handed

I firmly believe your dominate eye is which ever eye allows for a sharper image at any given distance. Your brain is trying to use the best one of the 2, for people like me with 2 very good eyes it makes for a shit storm when you first start, you still have a dominate eye but its much easier to fall out of focus with out reference points. For me both eyes want to focus the same and it can be difficult differentiating the 2 images, with time and practice your brain eventually picks the one you use the most.

[blksheep 466]

I wouldn't go with a relaxed grip if you want quick follow up shots. A nice strong neutral grip works the best

Most newer shoters tend to over grip when they first start out, so keeping a relaxed grip while maintaing control over the weapon usually is a good starting point.

[2Alpha 6]

The only way to over grip is a gun is to grip so hard you can't move your trigger finger.  Plus he said he has been shooting for 6 years

[Sixtytwo327 14]

How do I practice so that when I press the gun out from a low ready position or after a holster draw the sights are already lined up or close to being lined up?  I've read about "natural point of aim" but I'm not sure how that applies in terms of practice and shooting proficiency.  To complicate things a bit, I shoot right handed but am left-eye dominant which means I need to turn my head quite a bit to get a good sight picture.  I shoot using a modified isosceles stance, with my left foot forward and body "bladed" slightly -- almost a cross between a chapman and isosceles stance -- to help line up the sights.  That may be part of the reason it takes longer for me to get a good sight picture.

 

Technique is important, but of almost equal (and vastly understated) importance is physical strength and conditioning. Do any strength training?

[PDM 91]

I'm in pretty good shape and work out regularly including martial arts so not too worried about conditioning. I have a retinal problem in my right eye, which used to be my dominant eye until my body adjusted to compensate. So I have no choice but to use my left eye. This is really for self defense not competition and the point shooting comment is well taken. I still think having a presentation where the sights are lined up is important.

[AverageJoe 95]

I'm in pretty good shape and work out regularly including martial arts so not too worried about conditioning. I have a retinal problem in my right eye, which used to be my dominant eye until my body adjusted to compensate. So I have no choice but to use my left eye. This is really for self defense not competition and the point shooting comment is well taken. I still think having a presentation where the sights are lined up is important.

Have you checked with any doctors if your condition can be helped with rehabilitation? I.E. putting a patch over the good eye, forcing the one with issues to work more/rebuild itself.