possible ccw trip to texas

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I don't know why all this stopping at a range stuff is suggested. I have flown numerous times from Newark and JFK and checked a handgun. I have never had to deal with PAPD anytime.

 

My experience has been the same, although I've only flown out of Newark, not either of the NY airports.

 

The absurdity of having to stop at a range on the way to the airport to make the trip legal sounds like something out of Kafka.

[CageFighter 236]

So why are you still a NJ resident?

 

bc the commute for me & the wife would suck!  its bad enuff i drive 60 miles roundtrip thru the hood! 

[mipafox 438]

IIRC all the arrests at JFK were people who flew into NYC with their gun , stayed in NYC, and were leaving with their gun. It wasn't legal for them to have the gun in NYC so there's no FOPA protection .

How would anybody know where they stayed?

[HBecwithFn7 296]

How would anybody know where they stayed?

 

Would not the very fact that you arrived at JFK/LGA from "somewhere" and checked in (regardless of your local origin) be considered "being in NYC with your gun" and a violation of the law? I mean, it's not like you stayed on the secure side of the airport all the time. You landed, collected your luggage (with your gun), left the airport and returned to the airport (with your gun). I would think they'd consider that a violation of the NYC law.

[mipafox 438]

Would not the very fact that you arrived at JFK/LGA from "somewhere" and checked in (regardless of your local origin) be considered "being in NYC with your gun" and a violation of the law? I mean, it's not like you stayed on the secure side of the airport all the time. You landed, collected your luggage (with your gun), left the airport and returned to the airport (with your gun). I would think they'd consider that a violation of the NYC law.

Well, you fly out of JFK, wouldn't that be a violation of the law?

 

Somebody could fly into JFK to stay in the Poconos.

 

Now, neither is legal. I didn't question the legality.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Well, you fly out of JFK, wouldn't that be a violation of the law?

Perhaps not, if you "flew into JFK" on a layover, stayed on the secure side at all times, never had access to your checked luggage, and flew out again. I think the point is not ever needing to "check in" at the main counter with your gun in your luggage (i.e. where you have to declare it). Now, maybe the airline could screw you even more by forcing you to take custody of it while on air side layover, but....

 

Somebody could fly into JFK to stay in the Poconos.

 

Now, neither is legal. I didn't question the legality.

No, you didn't. You questioned what constituted a violation of the law (i.e. "How could anyone know where they stayed"), implying that staying outside of NYC would not be a violation. My point is, because LGA/JFK are both within the corporate limits of NYC, just "arriving at the airport" from the outside (regardless of where you stayed) and "checking in at the main counter" seems to place you sufficiently within NYC to constitute a violation of the NYC law (if you check in with a gun).

 

[mipafox 438]

 

Perhaps not, if you "flew into JFK" on a layover, stayed on the secure side at all times, never had access to your checked luggage, and flew out again. I think the point is not ever needing to "check in" at the main counter with your gun in your luggage (i.e. where you have to declare it). Now, maybe the airline could screw you even more by forcing you to take custody of it while on air side layover, but....

 

 

No, you didn't. You questioned what constituted a violation of the law (i.e. "How could anyone know where they stayed"), implying that staying outside of NYC would not be a violation. My point is, because LGA/JFK are both within the corporate limits of NYC, just "arriving at the airport" from the outside (regardless of where you stayed) and "checking in at the main counter" seems to place you sufficiently within NYC to constitute a violation of the NYC law (if you check in with a gun).

 

I thought I clarified that above. I think it is illegal for anyone without a NY carry permit (or whatever is required) to fly into or out of JFK if they have a handgun in their possession at any time. Anyone (other than cops/other privileged classes).

 

I did not imply anything that you have inferred. One of the reasons I asked was because it was proposed in a way to suggest that the only legal peril would be a person staying in NYC. So, I asked, "How would they know?"

[mipafox 438]

Oops! Just realized a mistake of my train of thought. NY is not 3rd Circuit. So it might be legal for some people to fly into or out of JFK.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I thought I clarified that above. I think it is illegal for anyone without a NY carry permit (or whatever is required) to fly into or out of JFK if they have a handgun in their possession at any time. Anyone (other than cops/other privileged classes).

But it wouldn't be in the owner's "possession" while in the custody of the airline, right? As I said earlier, as long as the pax. flies in, stays air side, never touches their checked baggage, and then leaves on an outbound plane (with gun in checked baggage aboard), they were never "in possession" of it. Did they violate the law, then?

 

Or, does "ownership = possession" within the context of that law?

 

I did not imply anything that you have inferred. One of the reasons I asked was because it was proposed in a way to suggest that the only legal peril would be a person staying in NYC. So, I asked, "How would they know?"

And my point being, they really wouldn't... but it wouldn't matter, because the pax. would still have to travel some distance through the city limits to get to LGA or JFK from wherever they were staying... and thus, violate the law by being within city limits for that brief period of time. The assumption being that, if you arrive at the check in counter and declare your weapon, that you had to be somewhere in NYC to get to that counter and, thus, violated the law. If you flew into JFK/LGA, stayed air side, never touched your checked baggage and left again, you'd have never "possessed" it while in NYC and, thus, not violated the law. Unless, again, "ownership = possession."

 

Oops! Just realized a mistake of my train of thought. NY is not 3rd Circuit. So it might be legal for some people to fly into or out of JFK.

Can you cite what 3rd circuit rulings make it illegal to "fly into / out of" an airport with a gun in checked baggage and remaining in the airline's custody? Just curious... I wasn't aware of any other jurisdiction having "NYC like" laws... or any other cases where a pax. was confronted "air side" for flying in with a weapon still in the airline's custody. Or, for that matter, a case where a pax. was forced to stay overnight and then busted the next morning for checking in with a weapon (other than NYC airports). Did this happen in NJ based on NJ State law (or Philly based on Philly law)?

 

 

 

 

[mipafox 438]

 

Can you cite what 3rd circuit rulings make it illegal to "fly into / out of" an airport with a gun in checked baggage and remaining in the airline's custody? Just curious... I wasn't aware of any other jurisdiction having "NYC like" laws... or any other cases where a pax. was confronted "air side" for flying in with a weapon still in the airline's custody. Or, for that matter, a case where a pax. was forced to stay overnight and then busted the next morning for checking in with a weapon (other than NYC airports). Did this happen in NJ based on NJ State law (or Philly based on Philly law)?

In the 3rd Circuit (PA, NJ, and Delaware) FOPA does not protect you against state laws prohibiting firearm possession except while the firearm is inside a vehicle.

 

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/USDisCtOnTransportingFirearmsThruAirports.pdf

 

It does not protect you against state firearms laws while taking your cased firearm from your vehicle and bringing it into the airport terminal. By extension, it would not cover you taking your firearm from your house to your car if it is illegal under state law to possess a firearm under such circumstances - an NJ example would be you have no driveway and your car is parked on the street.

 

Now, I believe FOPA does not cover you in your state of origin or state of destination at all. Whether or not that is true, when it comes to NJ-PA-DE, FOPA only covers you in a vehicle.

[mipafox 438]

It is plain from the latter condition that the statute

protects only transportation of a firearm in a vehicle, and

requires that the firearm and ammunition be neither readily

nor directly accessible from the passenger compartment of

such vehicle. In particular, the word “such,” in “such

transporting vehicle,” by definition refers back to earlier

part(s) of the sentence, and the only parts it could possibly

refer to are the parts referring to the transportation of a

firearm or ammunition. The use of “such” therefore makes

clear that the transportation the statute protects must occur in

a “transporting vehicle.”

Moreover, if there were any doubt about the statute’s

vehicular limitation, the final part of the sentence that follows

-- the “Provided” clause -- again makes clear that only

vehicular transportation is included in the statutory grant. It

states: “Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a

compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the

firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked

container other than the glove compartment or console.” 18

U.S.C. § 926A (emphasis supplied). This clause, on its face,

presupposes transportation of the firearm in a vehicle.

It follows from this plain meaning that an ambulatory

plaintiff who intends to transit through Newark Airport is

outside the coverage of the statute.3

[HBecwithFn7 296]

  In the 3rd Circuit (PA, NJ, and Delaware) FOPA does not protect you against state laws prohibiting firearm possession except while the firearm is inside a vehicle.

 

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/USDisCtOnTransportingFirearmsThruAirports.pdf

 

It does not protect you against state firearms laws while taking your cased firearm from your vehicle and bringing it into the airport terminal. By extension, it would not cover you taking your firearm from your house to your car if it is illegal under state law to possess a firearm under such circumstances - an NJ example would be you have no driveway and your car is parked on the street.

 

Now, I believe FOPA does not cover you in your state of origin or state of destination at all. Whether or not that is true, when it comes to NJ-PA-DE, FOPA only covers you in a vehicle.

 

Agreed, but none of that should apply if the pax. stays "air side" and never possesses the weapon while "in transit." If they have to take custody of the weapon and leave the secure area, then all bets are off and they are subject to whatever state/local laws are in effect.  But they'd have to be "caught" with it in possession. It would seem the primary way that happens is when they re-enter the airport and check in for their flight (and re-delcaring the weapon - and if the airline or TSA notifies state/local/transit police).  I don't know of any cases where a pax. was under surveillance by LE and busted entering or leaving the airport building.

 

I thought the whole point of this issue (and the concern) was pax. who *thought* they were only "transiting" through an airport (and not leaving air side or taking possession of their weapons while in transit) but being forced into that scenario (and being subject to state/local laws) due to an airline mishap. If a pax. is doing this "willfully," then it's their responsibility for what happens... Is it "right?"  No, but it is the law... and it's why (until the law settles down) I won't transport on an airline. It's why I cancelled my Autotrain reservation to Florida and drove down (because they wouldn't allow my firearms on board the Autotrain).

[mipafox 438]

 

Agreed, but none of that should apply if the pax. stays "air side" and never possesses the weapon while "in transit." If they have to take custody of the weapon and leave the secure area, then all bets are off and they are subject to whatever state/local laws are in effect.  But they'd have to be "caught" with it in possession. It would seem the primary way that happens is when they re-enter the airport and check in for their flight (and re-delcaring the weapon - and if the airline or TSA notifies state/local/transit police).  I don't know of any cases where a pax. was under surveillance by LE and busted entering or leaving the airport building.

 

I thought the whole point of this issue (and the concern) was pax. who *thought* they were only "transiting" through an airport (and not leaving air side or taking possession of their weapons while in transit) but being forced into that scenario (and being subject to state/local laws) due to an airline mishap. If a pax. is doing this "willfully," then it's their responsibility for what happens... Is it "right?"  No, but it is the law... and it's why (until the law settles down) I won't transport on an airline. It's why I cancelled my Autotrain reservation to Florida and drove down (because they wouldn't allow my firearms on board the Autotrain).

 

 

I was never talking about that. And that is not limited to the case of somebody staying in NYC during their travel.

 

No offense, I'm actually not all that interested in this discussion. I've just been responding to you but you are talking about some other things.

 

Oops! I misunderstood your question as well:

 

Can you cite what 3rd circuit rulings make it illegal to "fly into / out of" an airport with a gun in checked baggage and remaining in the airline's custody?

We are having two completely different conversations that don't overlap at all. Kinda strange, actually. That's an extremely odd question. You can't fly out of JFK or Newark with a handgun, that's all that matters. You are talking about connections or layovers.

 

I don't think anybody believes they will go to jail if the airport has possession of your luggage containing a gun. If I drive my mom into NYC and she has my gun in her waistband I will not go to jail, she will.

 

I asked how they knew you stayed in NYC. Nothing you have said has anything to do with that. You seem to be talking about whether or not somebody leaves an airport.

[GRIZ 3,369]

How would anybody know where they stayed?

They told the police when asked for one.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

We are having two completely different conversations that don't overlap at all. Kinda strange, actually. That's an extremely odd question. You can't fly out of JFK or Newark with a handgun, that's all that matters. You are talking about connections or layovers.

 

I asked how they knew you stayed in NYC. Nothing you have said has anything to do with that. You seem to be talking about whether or not somebody leaves an airport.

 

Actually, I did say something that had to do with it...

 

 

And my point being, they really wouldn't [know if you stayed in NYC]... but it wouldn't matter, because the pax. would still have to travel some distance through the city limits to get to LGA or JFK from wherever they were staying... and thus, violate the law by being within city limits for that brief period of time. The assumption being that, if you arrive at the check in counter and declare your weapon, that you had to be somewhere in NYC to get to that counter and, thus, violated the law.

 

But, yes, let's end the discussion here.  There are two issues, correct.  1) What happens when voluntarily transporting a weapon to an airport for a flight, and 2) what happens when one is forced into that scenario due to an airline mishap that results in a layover requiring the pax to leave air side.  I think 2) is the more critical issue. If I'm living somewhere where I know there are these legal issues (like NJ or NYC), then I have to factor that into the risk/benefit calculation. If I live somewhere (and am traveling to somewhere) where I don't expect these issues, but are forced into it by the airline's mishaps, then that's a huge problem.