rauchman 3 Posted September 29, 2014 Greetings, Did some researching over the weekend. Some thoughts..... 1911 9mm - While I'm sure it's a nice gun for the range, not interested. I'm done with range only guns and I still read about mags being the weak link on this platform for reliability. Sig Mk 25 / Combat - Still high on desirability list, but if purchased, will add the SRT trigger. Beretta 92A1/M9A1 - Hadn't realized that there some parts on the 92A1 that are not compatible with the older 92FS in our house. The M9A1 has moved up the list due to having no parts compatibility issues, better checkering and beveled mag well. Ruger 9mm - I've shot/handled a few, but they did nothing for me. VP9 - Still high on the purchase list. Gen4 G17 - Also, still high on the purchase list. CZ P07 - Been reading some good stuff on this pistol. Understand this can be made into a great shooter, but out of the box, it's good, but a little raw. I have 3 permits coming. Right now, my top 3 are Beretta M9A1, VP9, Gen4 G17, followed by Sig P226 and CZ offering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PD2K 115 Posted September 29, 2014 Greetings, Did some researching over the weekend. Some thoughts..... 1911 9mm - While I'm sure it's a nice gun for the range, not interested. I'm done with range only guns and I still read about mags being the weak link on this platform for reliability. Sig Mk 25 / Combat - Still high on desirability list, but if purchased, will add the SRT trigger. Beretta 92A1/M9A1 - Hadn't realized that there some parts on the 92A1 that are not compatible with the older 92FS in our house. The M9A1 has moved up the list due to having no parts compatibility issues, better checkering and beveled mag well. Ruger 9mm - I've shot/handled a few, but they did nothing for me. VP9 - Still high on the purchase list. Gen4 G17 - Also, still high on the purchase list. CZ P07 - Been reading some good stuff on this pistol. Understand this can be made into a great shooter, but out of the box, it's good, but a little raw. I have 3 permits coming. Right now, my top 3 are Beretta M9A1, VP9, Gen4 G17, followed by Sig P226 and CZ offering. If you laid them all in front on me and I had to choose three it would be: Sig 226 MK25 H&K VP9 Glock 17 G4 (I do prefer the G19 over G17 though - great size and no pinning mag issue) Still all good choices and cannot go wrong with any. Please test them out at the range before buying if you have not shot them before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted September 29, 2014 steve's got VP9LE's for a good price. just sayin'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted September 29, 2014 Who is Steve and where do I buy a VP9 through him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted September 29, 2014 http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/72511-hk-vp9-les-inbound/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 30, 2014 the ONLY thing I'd say is as the esteemed colleague and gentleman above showed,, I'd probably go with the Desert model. Cerakote is a superior finish to the "Nitron" finish Sig calls Ion Bond PVD coating. Voice of dissention here. There is no way a spray and bake is superior to a metallurgical process. I mean I like cerakote, but it does not compare to ionbond in terms of durability and longevity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted September 30, 2014 Shane45 - Agree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 30, 2014 Think what captures the hearts of folks looking at the cerakote vs ion or blue or anything else as a surface coat are properties vs vanity. It's probably best to list them all and see what they provide. For years, bluing worked as long as kept oiled and moisture free. It was limited to color. Blue, royal blue, etc. But when the new surfaces started showing up with other properties, people either wanted extended durability, self lube, (if there really is such a thing), or colors. They each have their goods and bads. Whether chipping, scratching or just looking fancy, you need to ask yourself where and how the gun will be used. I won't go into properties because they are listed all over the place. But if I were to choose, I'd use the factors of 'for what and where'. Only the potential buyer will answer that and determine what surface works best. As far as power vs caliber... a well placed headshot mostly always works no matter of caliber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrap 4 Posted September 30, 2014 Voice of dissention here. There is no way a spray and bake is superior to a metallurgical process. I mean I like cerakote, but it does not compare to ionbond in terms of durability and longevity. Hey I was wondered if you had not been feeling well or something! I had posted at least 5, maybe even 10 posts without you disagreeing with whatever I said! I am very glad to know everything is obviously fine! and let me state, calling PVD a metallurgical process is shaky at best. Every definition of the process states it's a coating - literally the definition of it is a coating. A coating applied so that the metallurgical properties of the substrate remain absolutely constant before and after. Tenifer/Melonite is a metallurgical process. The substrate properties are enhanced after the process. You can support whatever finish you like, it's fine with me, my feeling is that Ionbond is nowhere near as nice a finish as Cerakote, and Googling the subject brings up pages of people agreeing (and disagreeing and supporting finishes not described here) - but it's not like I decided this and no one in the world has ever thought the same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 30, 2014 I cant follow you around all the time! As bhunted pointed out, what criteria are you after, pretty, or effective? I am well aware of the process. I helped pioneer its use on firearms way back in the day when I worked with Darrell Lewis back in the "Bodycoat - Diamond Black" days when the 1911 class I formed used it on all the pistols in the class. Circa 2001/2002 ish time frame. How the DLC process is applied makes all the difference in the world. But I have found that to be true of most finishes out there. But from a durability and longevity perspective, done correctly, ionbond is tough to do better than. Sure Cerakote is pretty... until its not. It can and does chip and wear and has no inherent lubricity. Cerakote does hold one distinct advantage but there is not much point in going into that as I don't believe its available to civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted October 6, 2014 Went to RTSP yesterday to sling some lead and help break in my buddy's newly acquired Sig P226 Mk 25 FDE. Being the idiot that I am, I wanted to bring my wife's Beretta 92FS but was running late and forgot to bring it. I only brought my P226 w/ E2 grip. During shooting, I noticed that I'm not really digging the E2 grip and preferring the original style grip that was on my buddy's Mk 25. I had finished up my allotment of ammo and went to the retail section to look at a few pistols. The 1st one was a Beretta 92G. The first thing I noticed was the slightly restyled grip. At least on the 92G, 92A1 and M9A1, Beretta is doing the grip a little differently by machining the area where the web of your hand would sits in a little further, maybe 1-2mm (not positive on the measurement). At least at first feel, it seems to fit my hand much better. My fingers are on the shorter side and it allowed my trigger finger to reach the double action trigger with much better contact. AFAIK, there is no G model with a rail. An M9A1-G or 92A1 G would be my ideal choice. The other pistol I looked at has a 30+ thread on M4carbine.net. It is the CZ P-07. At least dry firing and interacting as much as one can at a gun store, I was very impressed with the pistol. It comes to line of sight very naturally, the controls work for me, the sights sit low on the low bore axis slide, texture felt like it would give some grip, SA trigger was very nice, it was light and was thinner than a G19. DA pull was pretty heavy, but in the thread on M4Carbine.net, there is extensive detail describing fixes to bring the DA pull to as low as 6lb. And it's relatively cheap at $525. Being that I'm very into DA/SA pistols lately, this pistol is resonating with me heavily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,138 Posted October 6, 2014 like I said in post #5, resonates with me too lol. And gonna look at thatM4Carbine thread later too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
svt3183 14 Posted October 6, 2014 Did you rack it? The slide is very short top to bottom and I feel that it makes racking difficult and uncomfortable due to lack of surface area. Maybe you can get used to it, I only shot one once. Personally, I'd get something else for the price. The other pistol I looked at has a 30+ thread on M4carbine.net. It is the CZ P-07. At least dry firing and interacting as much as one can at a gun store, I was very impressed with the pistol. It comes to line of sight very naturally, the controls work for me, the sights sit low on the low bore axis slide, texture felt like it would give some grip, SA trigger was very nice, it was light and was thinner than a G19. DA pull was pretty heavy, but in the thread on M4Carbine.net, there is extensive detail describing fixes to bring the DA pull to as low as 6lb. And it's relatively cheap at $525. Being that I'm very into DA/SA pistols lately, this pistol is resonating with me heavily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted October 6, 2014 svt3183 - Yes, I did rack it and I can understand your objections. Being that the slide sits in the frame vs. over the frame as on most other pistols, it makes for small cocking serrations. It didn't bother me too much, and I'm sure with practice it wouldn't be too much of an issue. Mods, any hints as to why I can't quote / multiquote? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
svt3183 14 Posted October 7, 2014 on top left of reply box click the BBCode Mode buttone. Symbol looks like a light switch. Mods, any hints as to why I can't quote / multiquote? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BullzeyeNJ 104 Posted October 7, 2014 Be one of the cool kids on the block and get a VP9. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted October 7, 2014 on top left of reply box click the BBCode Mode buttone. Symbol looks like a light switch. Got it. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meissama 1 Posted October 7, 2014 As an option tho it is rarer these days. CZ75 SP-01 Phantom. You get the better looks of the SP-01 with the polymer chassis of the p-09. Only thing that stinks is you will have the older non-omega trigger setup, but with maybe... 60 bucks and some time of your own you can get bits from cajun gun works to make it an even more solid performer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted October 7, 2014 As an option tho it is rarer these days. CZ75 SP-01 Phantom. You get the better looks of the SP-01 with the polymer chassis of the p-09. Only thing that stinks is you will have the older non-omega trigger setup, but with maybe... 60 bucks and some time of your own you can get bits from cajun gun works to make it an even more solid performer. Appreciate the info. Are 15 round mags available for the Phantom? The P-09 looks interesting, but I have a hard time swallowing going from a 19rnd mag to a 10rnd mag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meissama 1 Posted October 7, 2014 Yeah sp-01 uses standard cz 75 mags. I think mecgar makes some 15 rounders. CZ P-07s can use standard cz 75 mags however sadly the 09 just barely doesn't lock up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meissama 1 Posted October 7, 2014 Here's my sp-01 tactical with wood grips for a visual comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rauchman 3 Posted October 7, 2014 Here's my sp-01 tactical with wood grips for a visual comparison. Beautiful pistol, and thanks for the info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acaixguard 37 Posted October 8, 2014 Voice of dissention here. There is no way a spray and bake is superior to a metallurgical process. Agreed...there's a reason some guys like Doug at ATEi don't offer Cerakote as a finish. It's hard to be melonite type finishes for durability. Also, spray and bake finishes tend to only look good when new. After putting some abuse on them, they look more battered than some other finishes. I can appreciate a nicely cerakoted gun, especially on a rifle, but I never really understood why people pay good money for fancy colors/patterns on a working gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites