Shane45 807 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Ray Ray said: No, I am correct. Thanks BROWE, Inc. is a manufacturer of premium quality optical systems for military, law enforcement, hunting and the shooting sports. Founded in 2009, BROWE produces optical solutions for defense, industrial and commercial applications. The company designs, sources and manufactures its products in the U.S. with sales worldwide, including Europe, Middle East, Asia, and Canada. Founded in 2009 by Brian K. Browe, former Director of Operations of Trijicon, Inc. Mr. Browe has over 22 years experience in manufacturing combat and tactical optics with extensive experience in the industry. And this link to an interview with the CEO of PA said he started it in the back of his barber shop. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/11/foghorn/an-interview-with-marshall-lerner-ceo-of-primary-arms/ 23 minutes ago, Zeke said: Stop being a douche new person Ill side with Lord-Fudd on this one! LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted December 21, 2018 Winning Dimitri Mikroulis, who designed optics for Trijicon works for Primary Arms. Apology accepted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 53 minutes ago, Ray Ray said: Winning Dimitri Mikroulis, who designed optics for Trijicon works for Primary Arms. Apology accepted. Awesome, good for him. what I said stands 100% correct. Primary arms went to China with various Optics and had them replicate them and that is what they've done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 Pa 1-4x is millet, made in same factory Pa red dot, holosun, same factory Lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted December 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, myhatinthering said: Pa 1-4x is millet, made in same factory Pa red dot, holosun, same factory Lol Completely not out of the question. Most of these are merely brands now. They find a supplier and slap their name on it. I.e. Browning, Sears Craftsman, etc. The one caveat is that depending on what the brand calls for, they may have slightly different specs, such as coatings, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Maksim said: Completely not out of the question. Most of these are merely brands now. They find a supplier and slap their name on it. I.e. Browning, Sears Craftsman, etc. The one caveat is that depending on what the brand calls for, they may have slightly different specs, such as coatings, etc. Very true but this is pa scope business model. he goes to China and has them deconstruct and then reconstruct under his own brand. Although I think with the Halo Sun he actually just had it brand it to him but that is still open to debate as they have neither confirm nor deny that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted December 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, myhatinthering said: Very true but this is pa scope business model. he goes to China and has them deconstruct and then reconstruct under his own brand. Although I think with the Halo Sun he actually just had it brand it to him but that is still open to debate as they have neither confirm nor deny that I think this is par for the course now and generally don't have an issue with this... here is why. If someone wants something that works like an Aimpoint... but does not need it to survive a nuclear scenario.... there should be something to fill that void. As long as people know they are not getting the exact same components. Although I do agree that most will not get it and think that some products are just hella marked up. Coming from the camera world, we all know that glass is glass and where the expense lies. Beyond that, if there was a patent and it expired? By all means, that is what the free market is about. But... look at Magpul and some of their really expensive stocks.... $300 for a piece of plastic? What did they think was going to happen? The market will decide what is important and I am sure as long as the "operators" of the world keep buying Aimpoint and Trijicon, they will sell plenty to the weekend warriors who have the cash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted December 21, 2018 Sorry Ray, all the years on this forum you have yet to win a single argument against me. You said: "IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand." "Dimitri Mikroulis, who designed optics for Trijicon works for Primary Arms." So far both these statements appear to be patently wrong. I dont find anything indicating he worked for Trijicon. Only that they licensed one of his reticles. He is not listed on the executives on the PA website. Perhaps he works for them but an employee HARDLY qualifies as a big wig that left Trijicon to build the PA brand. You can make your own Reticle too. Pay 1k and I can get it put in a US Optics scope for you. BFD! The USO Scope on my Cadex has a reticle in it designed by George Gardner from GA Precision. That doesnt make him a US Optics employee, I assure you. Please show me evidence he worked for Trijicon as a high level person. You stole fizzy lifting drinks.. you bumped into the ceiling that now had to be washed and sterilized, so you get NOTHING! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted December 21, 2018 Fake news I already destroyed miss @Shane45 and mrs @myhatinthering. Adios Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,751 Posted December 21, 2018 Wow, we don’t need to turn this into a pissing contest. Can’t we keep it on topic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted December 21, 2018 The points were made pages ago, all thats left is keeping Ray in his lane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Shane45 said: Sorry Ray, all the years on this forum you have yet to win a single argument against me. You said: "IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand." "Dimitri Mikroulis, who designed optics for Trijicon works for Primary Arms." So far both these statements appear to be patently wrong. I dont find anything indicating he worked for Trijicon. Only that they licensed one of his reticles. He is not listed on the executives on the PA website. Perhaps he works for them but an employee HARDLY qualifies as a big wig that left Trijicon to build the PA brand. You can make your own Reticle too. Pay 1k and I can get it put in a US Optics scope for you. BFD! The USO Scope on my Cadex has a reticle in it designed by George Gardner from GA Precision. That doesnt make him a US Optics employee, I assure you. Please show me evidence he worked for Trijicon as a high level person. You stole fizzy lifting drinks.. you bumped into the ceiling that now had to be washed and sterilized, so you get NOTHING! he's wrong, has no clue what he's talking about. Just let it go.... back on point, I agree that price does not equal quality but here it really does 11 hours ago, Maksim said: I think this is par for the course now and generally don't have an issue with this... here is why. If someone wants something that works like an Aimpoint... but does not need it to survive a nuclear scenario.... there should be something to fill that void. As long as people know they are not getting the exact same components. Although I do agree that most will not get it and think that some products are just hella marked up. Coming from the camera world, we all know that glass is glass and where the expense lies. Beyond that, if there was a patent and it expired? By all means, that is what the free market is about. But... look at Magpul and some of their really expensive stocks.... $300 for a piece of plastic? What did they think was going to happen? The market will decide what is important and I am sure as long as the "operators" of the world keep buying Aimpoint and Trijicon, they will sell plenty to the weekend warriors who have the cash. I will say that the best of the cheap brands is, in my humble opinion and mind you that I destroy a gun/optic each year pretty much, is the holosun. No way is it as tough as the pro/comp4/trijicon but it's of the cheap lot, it's the one to go with 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted December 21, 2018 Taking away my Xmas sport I haven't beat the snot out of one but from what I see, I think your right about the Holosun. I bought one to play with so that all of my opinion on cheaper optics wasnt pure speculation 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 Its fun...just abuse a bitch like liberal step child....lol 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted December 21, 2018 I’ve had a Holosun on a PCC for maybe almost 3 years now... I think it’s a 403. I can’t break it. I’ve tried. Took a minute to zero - the clicks weren’t moving the dot initially. I had to work windage and elevation to max and min, then re-center. Worked fine after that. Once it was zeroed I haven’t touched it. Still on the same battery too. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio.Weaponworks 57 Posted December 21, 2018 16 hours ago, Zeke said: Stop being a douche new person I have the time to be onesince I only had to purchase an optic once, not 3 “just as goods” to then buy a trijicon/aimpoint/nightforce Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Lord_Fudd said: I have the time to be onesince I only had to purchase an optic once, not 3 “just as goods” to then buy a trijicon/aimpoint/nightforce I agree and have been preaching “buy once, cry once” for a long time. However, “Don’t be poor” is douchey. And the times, they are a-changin’. Companies like Holosun for optics, and OLight or Four Sevens for flashlights are coming in with a good product at an excellent price which equates to an outstanding value that will quickly knock Aimpoint and Surefire from their thrones if they aren’t careful. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Lord_Fudd said: I have the time to be onesince I only had to purchase an optic once, not 3 “just as goods” to then buy a trijicon/aimpoint/nightforce That's nice, you must be an operator? I don't need a $1,000 optic to shoot targets at 300 yards or less.. It would be nice, but it's wasted money. I owned EoTech, Aimpont Trijicon.... yet the rifle and optic that gets the most use at the range.... has a Nikon Monarch 3 on it. I appreciate quality gear that will probably never serve up to its potential in my life time, and it's there if i need it. But, I have zero plans on replacing it... the glass is "good enough" that i don't even think about it. These responses remind me of the people who drive 55mph on the high way in their Ferrari's. This pretentious attitude, like every optic you own needs to be top tier is ridiculous... like saying every AR I own must be a Noveske. Top tier gear is 100% worth purchasing, but not 100% of the time. Unless youre loaded with cash, or simply trying to impress people at each and every turn. If you can complete the same task with a cheaper piece of gear, what does it matter? 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Lord_Fudd said: I have the time to be onesince I only had to purchase an optic once, not 3 “just as goods” to then buy a trijicon/aimpoint/nightforce Would you put a t-2 on a practice mp-22? @Shane45 that doesn’t make sense. Ziess on a 10-22? Im a cry once type also, but cannot justify certain optics for practice guns or new shooter guns. And I am poor 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted December 21, 2018 3 hours ago, myhatinthering said: he's wrong, has no clue what he's talking about. Just let it go.... back on point, I agree that price does not equal quality but here it really does I will say that the best of the cheap brands is, in my humble opinion and mind you that I destroy a gun/optic each year pretty much, is the holosun. No way is it as tough as the pro/comp4/trijicon but it's of the cheap lot, it's the one to go with Which optics are you breaking in a year? I thought the argument was these higher end optics are durable, that why they cost more money? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted December 21, 2018 I forgot to add this in my response above: I have only had to purchase optics once as well. Once for each firearm that gets an optic. My firearms get prioritized. Do I really need another $500 T1 (I already have 5 firearms with Aimpoints, 2 with Steiner glass, and 5 more with Trijicon optics). What do I really need on an M&P 15-22 trainer or a PCC that will only see use at steel matches? Does the optic need to cost more than the firearm I’m putting it on? Sometimes the answer is yes, and I’ll make it happen. Sometimes, it’s no. Occasionally, good enough really is good enough. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted December 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: Which optics are you breaking in a year? I thought the argument was these higher end optics are durable, that why they cost more money? You can break anything if you try hard enough. And - If you can afford it - it’s useful data to have. I’d like to know where the failure point is on a few pieces of gear I have. I’m not gentle on my guns or optics and I don’t baby them, but I do take care of them. Guns that are designated work guns get a little more TLC than training guns. Training guns get a little more than plinkers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, High Exposure said: I agree and have been preaching “buy once, cry once” for a long time. However, “Don’t be poor” is douchey. And the times, they are a-changin’. Companies like Holosun for optics, and OLight or Four Sevens for flashlights are coming in with a good product at an excellent price which equates to an outstanding value that will quickly knock Aimpoint and Surefire from their thrones if they aren’t careful. Did you steal my identity? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio.Weaponworks 57 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, High Exposure said: I agree and have been preaching “buy once, cry once” for a long time. However, “Don’t be poor” is douchey. And the times, they are a-changin’. Companies like Holosun for optics, and OLight or Four Sevens for flashlights are coming in with a good product at an excellent price which equates to an outstanding value that will quickly knock Aimpoint and Surefire from their thrones if they aren’t careful. You listen to Joe too much, only reason I know is because I've seen him post on instagram shooting with you and every time I talk to him he tries to go for the hard sell on Holosun, I'll tell you the same thing I tell him, just stop Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio.Weaponworks 57 Posted December 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: That's nice, you must be an operator? Words words words words words words words words i’m poor I did serve in the Military, but I don’t operate anymore, when guns and optics are long term owner ship items, you buy the good stuff to make sure it works the best, all the time. Much like your car metaphor, you don’t buy a corvette and modify it with autozone parts. You don’t buy a Noveske/BCM/LWRC/KAC/HK/LMT whatever expensive rifle you can think of and slap on a cheap optic. Quote This pretentious attitude, like every optic you own needs to be top tier is ridiculous... like saying every AR I own must be a Noveske. Now we're gettin somewhere! Noveske is KAC for poors, LWRC is HK for poors...all 4 are excellent weapons and SHOULD be the gold standard. Call me pretentious all you want, but if you're gonna tell me PSA is "just as good" you lost me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 lol... I judge all ARs on how they measure up to Colt. No other has their track record for reliability, accuracy, and functionality and it's not even debatable. Couple that with mil abuse both in the field and with regular grunts in all conditions and it's the standard. Noveske was known for accurate barrels, not reliability and that accuracy standard is now lost with the myriad of other barrels out there that match and exceed them. They are no longer the shelf to reach for. Sold mine DD, known for reliability and not accuracy, same as Noveske only flipped. Sold mine LWRC, awesome weapon, lots of features and a favorite but doesn't do anything better than a 6920 and I'll wager the new CCU. More accurate than DD, less so than Noveske. Still have 1, sold 2 KAC, same as lwrc but prop bolt and gas system is a non starter for me. I sold mine years ago, not anymore accurate than my colts, not anymore reliable either but then again, I didn't shoot it as much. Henderson defense is getting 30+k rounds out of colt bolts and 40k+ rounds out of barrels. 800 vs 2500, no brainer PSA...pleaaaaaase...garbage, won't even have a serious discussion on their purpose built rifles however, Henderson has some and althought they've not lasted as long as the Colts, they've done pretty well. One caveat, they did 'work' them and have had lower parts issues on them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio.Weaponworks 57 Posted December 21, 2018 41 minutes ago, High Exposure said: I forgot to add this in my response above: I have only had to purchase optics once as well. Once for each firearm that gets an optic. My firearms get prioritized. Do I really need another $500 T1 (I already have 5 firearms with Aimpoints, 2 with Steiner glass, and 5 more with Trijicon optics). What do I really need on an M&P 15-22 trainer or a PCC that will only see use at steel matches? Does the optic need to cost more than the firearm I’m putting it on? Sometimes the answer is yes, and I’ll make it happen. Sometimes, it’s no. Occasionally, good enough really is good enough. if It's something you're using for matches, why wouldn't you throw an Aimpoint/EOTech/Trijicon/Leupold on it? for a beater .22, sure throw a cheap optic on it. I just got the HK 416 22LR, I threw my Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4 on that because it didn't have a home. My AR-10 has a Trijicon Accupower 1-8, my LWRC has a NX8, one of my Noveske's has a Leupold LCO, the other has MRO on it. I'm pretty sure you can scour ebay and Amazon and get a MRO for the same price as a Holosun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myhatinthering 462 Posted December 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: Which optics are you breaking in a year? I thought the argument was these higher end optics are durable, that why they cost more money? read again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio.Weaponworks 57 Posted December 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, myhatinthering said: lol... I judge all ARs on how they measure up to Colt. No other has their track record for reliability, accuracy, and functionality and it's not even debatable. Couple that with mil abuse both in the field and with regular grunts in all conditions and it's the standard. Noveske was known for accurate barrels, not reliability and that accuracy standard is now lost with the myriad of other barrels out there that match and exceed them. They are no longer the shelf to reach for. Sold mine DD, known for reliability and not accuracy, same as Noveske only flipped. Sold mine LWRC, awesome weapon, lots of features and a favorite but doesn't do anything better than a 6920 and I'll wager the new CCU. More accurate than DD, less so than Noveske. Still have 1, sold 2 KAC, same as lwrc but prop bolt and gas system is a non starter for me. I sold mine years ago, not anymore accurate than my colts, not anymore reliable either but then again, I didn't shoot it as much. Henderson defense is getting 30+k rounds out of colt bolts and 40k+ rounds out of barrels. 800 vs 2500, no brainer PSA...pleaaaaaase...garbage, won't even have a serious discussion on their purpose built rifles however, Henderson has some and althought they've not lasted as long as the Colts, they've done pretty well. One caveat, they did 'work' them and have had lower parts issues on them. I think with KAC those proprietary parts solve much of the issues in the AR platform. I had a Colt 6920 as my first AR, it was great and is probably the best starter AR for anyone, but the stock trigger is awful. Could use an upgrade amongst many other things, but that's why I sold my 6920, all the upgrades I wanted to make to it, would have turned a $900 rifle in to a $1800 rifle and for $1800 I rather have the Noveske or LWRC. Noveske's reliability standard is still up there, a lot of companies report round counts in the 20k+ range now too, but Noveske was one of the first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites