WillieBeamen 1 Posted March 12, 2021 Purchased a Troy A4 other in 5.56 and while waiting for my NICS to clear ordered a 300 blackout complete upper from Palmetto State Armory. The A4 seems to function fine, although I have not fired it yet. When putting the PSA upper on I noticed the bolt has more resistance moving back towards the barrel while moving the charging handle back and forth. It closes all the way when I use the release paddle but it does not close all the way if I pull the handle 1/2-3/4 and release (the Troy upper does). I have to use the forward assist to close it all the way, or pull the handle all the way back and release. I put a live round in and it barely fed and then would not extract it. The second time I tried it jammed and did not feed. I’ve eliminated the possibility of it being the bolt (I think) because the bolt functions fine in the A4 upper (and the A4 bolt has the same problem in the PSA upper). This is my first AR. But yes I was using the correct ammunition for each scenario. 1. Is it possible the PSA upper just isn’t compatible with the Troy? 2. Should I lube the hell out of everything before I look into it further or contact PSA? Appreciate any help or advice. I waited 4 months for my FIPC and 13 days on a NICS delay, this was supposed to be a happy day Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted March 12, 2021 Oil it and pull the handle all the way out and release. If the bolt closes its functioning correctly there is no issues. Pulling the charging handle 1/2 way is not creating enough force to push the bolt completely forward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted March 12, 2021 Did you clean it first? Most BCGs come with grease coating.. and not like a "lube" grease like a sticky grease for long term preservation. Blast it with some cleaner like brake clean, and lube it up. I bet that does the trick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 859 Posted March 12, 2021 3 hours ago, JackDaWack said: Did you clean it first? Most BCGs come with grease coating.. and not like a "lube" grease like a sticky grease for long term preservation. Blast it with some cleaner like brake clean, and lube it up. I bet that does the trick. This is what I'd do. Take it apart and clean everything then lube it very well and put it back together. I also agree that pulling the charging handle 1/2 or 3/4 isn't an effective test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WillieBeamen 1 Posted March 12, 2021 Okay, I will try cleaning it when I get home. And sorry as far as pulling the handle 1/2 way I was only referencing how the PSA felt vs the Troy upper. The Troy slides back and forth smooth and will close all the way with 1/2 force whereas the PSA gets bound up. Sounds like it could be from the preservation grease mentioned. Thanks. If this doesn’t solve the issue...I saw mentioned somewhere to try removing the extractor o ring? After reading this I’m less concerned about the stickiness of the bolt and wondering if cleaning and lubing is still going to help the failure to feed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 12, 2021 Sounds like a loose nut behind the trigger. You got good advice above. Curious to hear what you find. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WillieBeamen 1 Posted March 12, 2021 I’ll keep you posted. Won’t be off work for another 4 hours. I have Hoppes 9 cleaner and this clp break free, which I think is claimed to be a cleaner and lubricant all in one? Any recommendations for a lubricant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted March 12, 2021 38 minutes ago, WillieBeamen said: I’ll keep you posted. Won’t be off work for another 4 hours. I have Hoppes 9 cleaner and this clp break free, which I think is claimed to be a cleaner and lubricant all in one? Any recommendations for a lubricant? CLP and hoppes 9 is fine. Everyone uses a number of different things. As long as it cleans and lubes you're gtg. I used hopped 9 exclusively for years, but now I use it to clean only, and use slip2000 EWL for lube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted March 12, 2021 3 hours ago, 124gr9mm said: This is what I'd do. Take it apart and clean everything then lube it very well and put it back together. I also agree that pulling the charging handle 1/2 or 3/4 isn't an effective test. I was lazy once and just dumped lube on one... what ever they coated the BCG in smelt like ass when it burnt off. It still worked fine, but never again. It's too easy to field trip it and just clean the damn thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WillieBeamen 1 Posted March 13, 2021 Thanks everyone. Cleaned and lubed the bolt. I also removed the extractor o ring. Bolt moves much more smooth now, feeds, and extracts. I will reinstall the o ring tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. Exploring replacement springs if I’m going to keep it off Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 13, 2021 I’d put the extractor o-ring back on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GramGun79 226 Posted March 13, 2021 I agree with @Displaced Texan put the ring back on. There must be a reason the bolt was designed to have it on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 13, 2021 If memory serves me correctly, it’s part of the SOPMOD upgrades for AR-15/M-16 reliability. It’s likely not causing your issues, again, I’d put it back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 13, 2021 I’ve never used the ring in any of my extractors. I do use the black rubber cylinder that fits I side the spring, but never the donut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 13, 2021 I am still drinking my morning coffee, so not totally coherent yet....Since it IS a PSA upper, (I’m not crapping on them, I’ve had them before, mine was flawless, but they DO have a ‘history’ of spotty QC), is the gas tube properly aligned to the gas key in the bolt? I ask this because you mention (if I read it correctly)that the PSA bolt functions fine in the A4 upper, and the A4 bolt has the same dragging issue in the PSA upper. To me, this may indicate a gas tube alignment issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon K 32 Posted March 14, 2021 That troy lower is only legal on the troy upper btw. adjustable pistol brace is a no no. just saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jon K said: That troy lower is only legal on the troy upper btw. adjustable pistol brace is a no no. just saying. Says who? You can put any upper you want on a lower with an adjustable brace as long as the upper meets the requirements to keep the firearm an “other” or SBF. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon K 32 Posted March 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, High Exposure said: Says who? You can put any upper you want on a lower with an adjustable brace as long as the upper meets the requirements to keep the firearm an “other” or SBF. The leo who just locked you up, costing you 12 to 25k in legal expenses to prove what your saying. The troy lower is only officially legal and has a letter to prove it from the nj state police saying it is when its a total package. Now between the both of us, the op now knows how important it it to make sure this psa upper is configured 100% properly to comply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 14, 2021 Stop.... An SBF is an SBF by identifiable traits, not by any particular manufacturers brand. 25 minutes ago, Jon K said: The troy lower is only officially legal and has a letter to prove it from the nj state police saying it is when its a total package. Prove it. Show me where anything says that in NJ law. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyB 4,329 Posted March 14, 2021 47 minutes ago, Jon K said: The leo who just locked you up, costing you 12 to 25k in legal expenses to prove what your saying. The troy lower is only officially legal and has a letter to prove it from the nj state police saying it is when its a total package. Now between the both of us, the op now knows how important it it to make sure this psa upper is configured 100% properly to comply. For reasons I won't go into here, trust what @High Exposure says! I have never found him to be wrong when he chimes in on NJ gun law. Suffice it to say, HE knows the law! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 14, 2021 12 hours ago, Jon K said: That troy lower is only legal on the troy upper btw. adjustable pistol brace is a no no. just saying. Uhhh, you don’t know what you’re talking about, dude. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,929 Posted March 14, 2021 13 hours ago, Jon K said: That troy lower is only legal on the troy upper btw. adjustable pistol brace is a no no. just saying. Not strictly true, but also you cannot legally put just any upper on a non-NFA lower. You need to maintain the specs that allow it to qualify as a non-NFA. That means the alternate upper MUST have a VFG and the overall length when assembled from the back of the receiver extension to the muzzle must be 26 inches or more. e.g. a normal 16 inch carbine upper with no VFG when mated to a lower with an adjustable pistol brace is not legal. ETA: The same upper with a VFG installed is magically legal to mate with a non-NFA lower. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 14, 2021 23 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said: Not strictly true, but also you cannot legally put just any upper on a non-NFA lower. You need to maintain the specs that allow it to qualify as a non-NFA. That means the alternate upper MUST have a VFG and the overall length when assembled from the back of the receiver extension to the muzzle must be 26 inches or more. e.g. a normal 16 inch carbine upper with no VFG when mated to a lower with an adjustable pistol brace is not legal. Correct. It’s about the configuration meeting the ATF definition of an ‘other’ firearm. It doesn’t matter if another upper from a different manufacturer is attached to that ‘other’ lower, as long as it satisfies the definition of ‘other’ firearm. Adjustable pistol braces are legal on an other firearm, (yes, even in NJ), as long as the OAL length of the firearm measured from the end of the receiver extension. measures 26”. This (usually) means that your barrel length needs to be 12.5”. If your barrel is shorter, you’ll have to permanently attach a muzzle device to make it over 12.5”, and the OAL length of the firearm 26”. Yes...and a VFG must be attached. Now, back to the OP’s problem... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 14, 2021 One other important criteria - Technically, the lower can not have ever had a stock installed - ATF says you can’t go from a lower that was originally a rifle to pistol - so even with a brace, it’s still a rifle, making an SBF into an SBR. In other words, whatever lower you use, it can not have been originally transferred as a rifle. You need to use either a lower you bought stripped with I stock, or as a lower transferred as an SBF. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 859 Posted March 14, 2021 1 hour ago, High Exposure said: One other important criteria - Technically, the lower can not have ever had a stock installed - ATF says you can’t go from a lower that was originally a rifle to pistol - so even with a brace, it’s still a rifle, making an SBF into an SBR. In other words, whatever lower you use, it can not have been originally transferred as a rifle. You need to use either a lower you bought stripped with I stock, or as a lower transferred as an SBF. The insanity of NJ gun laws. Only in NJ can a lower receiver magically transform itself from one thing into another in such an absurd way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said: The insanity of NJ gun laws. Only in NJ can a lower receiver magically transform itself from one thing into another in such an absurd way... That’s federal law. Not NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WillieBeamen 1 Posted March 14, 2021 I still haven’t been able to get out and shoot it. But everything seems fine with dummy rounds (i live in an apt complex, and consider myself responsible, when it comes to firearms anyway). As far as the laws...I got it shipped to my place of business and the next day dropped it off to my LGS to get the brake pinned and welded so it would meet the 26” rule. I realize I might be in a grey area when it comes to having a different upper than purchased with. I honestly wouldn’t look forward to having a cop inspect this gun even if left untouched from the factory. Here’s one..let’s say I replace the SBA3 brace with another SBA3 brace of a different color? Is that legal? Is that modifying the brace? I felt weary of purchasing the Troy in the first place due to the specific rulings on it, and the possible uninformed police officer I may come in contact with. I’ve seen some are afraid to build their own other, and I am too. I follow all protocols traveling with firearms to the T to avoid any issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,768 Posted March 14, 2021 11 minutes ago, WillieBeamen said: I still haven’t been able to get out and shoot it. But everything seems fine with dummy rounds (i live in an apt complex, and consider myself responsible, when it comes to firearms anyway). As far as the laws...I got it shipped to my place of business and the next day dropped it off to my LGS to get the brake pinned and welded so it would meet the 26” rule. I realize I might be in a grey area when it comes to having a different upper than purchased with. I honestly wouldn’t look forward to having a cop inspect this gun even if left untouched from the factory. Here’s one..let’s say I replace the SBA3 brace with another SBA3 brace of a different color? Is that legal? Is that modifying the brace? You are NOT in a grey area AS LONG AS the PSA upper also is 12.5” barrel (or pinned/welded with a muzzle device that makes the firearm 26” OAL), AND has a VFG. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted March 14, 2021 19 hours ago, Jon K said: The leo who just locked you up, costing you 12 to 25k in legal expenses to prove what your saying. The troy lower is only officially legal and has a letter to prove it from the nj state police saying it is when its a total package. Now between the both of us, the op now knows how important it it to make sure this psa upper is configured 100% properly to comply. Just so you're aware, a piece of paper from the State Police IS NOT LEGAL advice. They are not allowed to give you legal advice. Even if you were arrested with a troy that letter isn't a get out of jail free card, any firearm in question would be fully examined by a firearm expert for the state. That opinion from the state about Troy "others" is non binding and can change tomorrow. Just so you are also aware, not a single gun I own has a letter from the state that states its legal, so why would I need one for an "other"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,671 Posted March 14, 2021 1 hour ago, WillieBeamen said: I realize I might be in a grey area when it comes to having a different upper than purchased with. I honestly wouldn’t look forward to having a cop inspect this gun even if left untouched from the factory. Here’s one..let’s say I replace the SBA3 brace with another SBA3 brace of a different color? Is that legal? Is that modifying the brace? I felt weary of purchasing the Troy in the first place due to the specific rulings on it, and the possible uninformed police officer I may come in contact with. Like Tex said, you are not in a grey area. As long as: 1) The overall length is over 26” - when measured from the end of the barrel with device removed or the end of a permanently installed muzzle device to the rear of receiver extension with the brace removed or in its shortest configuration if you have a folding-type adapter (This is a Federal standard for measuring. If it measures I under 26” overall, it falls into AOW territory - and that is a gray area in NJ) 2) The upper must have a VFG on the rail - the Magpul AFG or other angled fore grips do not count here. It has to be a vertical grip. 3) The lower receiver has never had a stock installed and was never transferred as a rifle. Federal law says you can’t go from Rifle to Pistol/Other. 4) The lower receiver has any pistol brace on the receiver extension/buffer tube, or something that is definitely NOT defined as a stock, or a bare receiver extension. If you meet all four criteria, your gun falls under the Federal Definition of a “Firearm” or “Other” and is legal in NJ. Don’t over think this. (Obligatory I am not a lawyer, take internet advice at your own risk, etc...) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites