NJSP REQUALIFICATION

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

58 minutes ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

BTW, how many here think that the December 31 requalificaiton date was selected to cause maximum inconvenience during the holiday season, and result in the revocation of as many PtC as possible? They could just as easily have made it on the anniversary date of the permit. Could be a coincidence, I suppose, but I think that any and all paranoia regarding the motivations of the state of NJ on any firearms issue is emminently justifiable.

It probably has more to do with the new CCARE protocol being issued 2.5 months after the deadline in the statute (July 1) so they extended the deadline to comply by 2 months. It is more likely they didn't even consider the holiday season, than do it maliciously. See Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:10 PM, Grima Squeakersen said:

I don't know - how long were unconstitutional 2A restrictions in place prior to Heller and Bruen? :-) Also, in my thesaurus "encourage" is not synonymous with "mandate". Of course, some parties in NJ have traditionally "encouraged" repayment of loans by methods some might regard as compulsion, so I guess htere is precedent...

 

Where did I highlight the encourage part? The underlined text defines the AG as the chief law enforcement officer of the State. What he does or does not encourage in that role is irrelevant to his position as head cop.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

17 hours ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

BTW, how many here think that the December 31 requalificaiton date was selected to cause maximum inconvenience during the holiday season, and result in the revocation of as many PtC as possible?

You ain't wrong!

[xXxplosive 824]

so are local PD's going to notify permit holders who haven't re-qualified by 12/31.......or is one an automatic felon if their caught carrying after the year end.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

1 hour ago, xXxplosive said:

so are local PD's going to notify permit holders who haven't re-qualified by 12/31.......or is one an automatic felon if their caught carrying after the year end.

my pd called me on my cell phone, at my shop, and emailed me. they were actually very helpful to me.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

Just now, 1LtCAP said:

my pd called me on my cell phone, at my shop, and emailed me. they were actually very helpful to me.

So did mine.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

My PD emailed me.  I'm sure the "2A Friendly" PD's will make some kind of notification effort, while the "2A hating" PD's will do nothing except hope the majority of their PTC holders remain uninformed.

I wonder if the NJSP is contacting anyone (those in NJ without a local PD, or out of state PTC holders).

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

34 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

My PD emailed me.  I'm sure the "2A Friendly" PD's will make some kind of notification effort, while the "2A hating" PD's will do nothing except hope the majority of their PTC holders remain uninformed.

I wonder if the NJSP is contacting anyone (those in NJ without a local PD, or out of state PTC holders).

I didn't hear shit from NJSP: nothing from Woodbine station; nothing from Firearms Div. Pretty much what I expected. Had I failed to requalify, however, I wouldn't have been terribly surprised to find a white SUV with diagnonal blue and yellow stripes sitting across the street from my driveway on Jan 1 <joke - I hope>

[10X 3,298]

39 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

I wonder if the NJSP is contacting anyone (those in NJ without a local PD, or out of state PTC holders).

Good question. I wonder as well.

My PD hadn’t contacted me as of 18 days before the deadline.  That’s when I dropped off the new paperwork, so I’ll probably never know if they would have done a last-minute notification. I suspect not. 

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

So, I requalified at Shooters last night. They made the process very easy - kudos to them. However, that just emphasized how ludicrous the requirement was. I drove nearly 2 hours (round trip) to shoot for less than 5 minutes, with a couse of fire that didn't prove I had one whit more competence with a handgun than did my original qualification, except, possibly, that I an able to withdraw my gun from a holster wiithout shooting my foot off. Oh, and I guess I should get on my knees and thank Phil Murphy and Matt Platkin for magnanimously allowing me to continue to exercise the privilege of bearing a firearm, for the moment...

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

I also had a thought regarding form SP182a: the list of firearms I expect to carry. AFAIK, NJ has no information about the specific firearm with which I qualified. I don't think that was listed on the original qualificaiton form. Even if it was, it damned sure isn't on the SP182 that was completed last night. Neither was I restricted to a specific weapon on my original permit. So, how would any cop, or anyone else for that matter, know whether what I happened to be carrying on any given occasion was, or was not, the gun I used to qualify? And if that is the case, what possible incentive would I have to potentially restrict my carry options by voluntarily giving the state a list?

[xXxplosive 824]

....and the NJSP do require a list...my son had to submit his prior to his permit being downloaded for copying.

[kc17 622]

For what it's worth and those who are curious. I do not have a local PD. I did not get anything from NJSP telling me I had to requalify. After I did the requalification I emailed the form to my local Barracks and asked if anything else was needed. They responded with a one word email "received".

 

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

Regarding submitting SP182 to NJSP for NJ PtC requalification.
I went to Shooters on Tuesday evening, 12/12/2023, to recertify to comply with the CCARE requirements. In my case, my original qualification did not inlcude holster draw. The instructor was Jamell Rosario. The instructor for my original training and qualification in 2022 was Dave Cope (also done at Shooters). I took my completed SP182, signed off by Mr. Rosario, to Woodbine NJSP station this morning to submit it. The trooper on the firearms desk, Dave Peterson, refused to accept it. He gave me two reasons.
First, he told me that NJSP Firearms Division is regarding the submission of form SP182a (list of firearms intended to be carried, which I did not yet complete) with SP182 as mandatory. I think that's ridiculous, but it is nothing I can't easily deal with.
The second reason is because the instructor who signed my original certification in 2022, Dave Cope, is not the same instructor who signed my SP182 on 12/12/2023. His reasoning was that SP182 also certifies that use of force training was completed, and Mr. Rosario does not have first-hand knowledge that I did that. Trooper Peterson told me that I would either need to get Mr. Cope to sign my recertification SP182, or get Mr. Rosario to furnish me with a copy of his NRA instructor's certificate to submit with my SP182. Presumably, that leaves Mr. Rosario on the hook for certifying my use of force training as well as my shooting, but that isn't my direct concern. He also told me that I will need to furnish a copy of my original qualfication certification that was signed off my Mr. Cope with my other forms. I have contacted Brielle at Shooters to see if Mr. Rosario will furnish a copy of his NRA instructor credentials to me. Hopefully that will resolve the issue.
Trooper Peterson claimed to be a 2A supporter (he even claimed that he conducted civilian training classes) but to me, his actions here call that claim into question. How about presuming that, since I do hold a current NJ PtC, that I had successfully completed the use of force training that was required to obtain it (as far as I know, the use of force training requirements have not changed over that period of time)?  If I ever entertained any doubt that there are multiple official forces and actors in NJ government who are looking to see that as few permit holders have the legal right to carry in NJ as they can possibly ensure, by maximizing the number of bureaucratic hoops that must be jumped through, this incident has completely dispelled that.
Any holder of a current NJ PtC who needs to submit SP182/SP182a to NJSP to meet the additional requirements of CCARE might want to keep my experience in mind.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:36 PM, Mr.Stu said:

Where did I highlight the encourage part? The underlined text defines the AG as the chief law enforcement officer of the State. What he does or does not encourage in that role is irrelevant to his position as head cop.

I have this odd habit of reading beyond what someone has highlighted in a quote :-) That entire paragraph you quoted is chock full of weasel words; "encourage" is just one of them. That word actually means to try to persuade someone to do something that they have discretion to not do. "Chief law enforcement officer of the state" doesn't carry much real meaning without a lot of supporting detail, and "general supervision" does not help at all on that regard. Do you seriously believe if it came down to court challenges and appeals, that ultimately it would be decided that Matt Platkin can, at will, entirely and completely usurp the authority of local administrators to direct the policing of their jurisdictions? I'm not even certain I believe that Matt Platkin himself would indulge that fantasy.

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

29 minutes ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

I have this odd habit of reading beyond what someone has highlighted in a quote :-) That entire paragraph you quoted is chock full of weasel words; "encourage" is just one of them. That word actually means to try to persuade someone to do something that they have discretion to not do. "Chief law enforcement officer of the state" doesn't carry much real meaning without a lot of supporting detail, and "general supervision" does not help at all on that regard. Do you seriously believe if it came down to court challenges and appeals, that ultimately it would be decided that Matt Platkin can, at will, entirely and completely usurp the authority of local administrators to direct the policing of their jurisdictions? I'm not even certain I believe that Matt Platkin himself would indulge that fantasy.

I'm sure you're absolutely right. Thanks for setting me straight.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:30 PM, kc17 said:

For what it's worth and those who are curious. I do not have a local PD. I did not get anything from NJSP telling me I had to requalify. After I did the requalification I emailed the form to my local Barracks and asked if anything else was needed. They responded with a one word email "received".

 

my local pd told me i needed nothing else after i provided them with the most current sp182. i asked her 3 times.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

15 hours ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

Regarding submitting SP182 to NJSP for NJ PtC requalification.
I went to Shooters on Tuesday evening, 12/12/2023, to recertify to comply with the CCARE requirements. In my case, my original qualification did not inlcude holster draw. The instructor was Jamell Rosario. The instructor for my original training and qualification in 2022 was Dave Cope (also done at Shooters). I took my completed SP182, signed off by Mr. Rosario, to Woodbine NJSP station this morning to submit it. The trooper on the firearms desk, Dave Peterson, refused to accept it. He gave me two reasons.
First, he told me that NJSP Firearms Division is regarding the submission of form SP182a (list of firearms intended to be carried, which I did not yet complete) with SP182 as mandatory. I think that's ridiculous, but it is nothing I can't easily deal with.
The second reason is because the instructor who signed my original certification in 2022, Dave Cope, is not the same instructor who signed my SP182 on 12/12/2023. His reasoning was that SP182 also certifies that use of force training was completed, and Mr. Rosario does not have first-hand knowledge that I did that. Trooper Peterson told me that I would either need to get Mr. Cope to sign my recertification SP182, or get Mr. Rosario to furnish me with a copy of his NRA instructor's certificate to submit with my SP182. Presumably, that leaves Mr. Rosario on the hook for certifying my use of force training as well as my shooting, but that isn't my direct concern. He also told me that I will need to furnish a copy of my original qualfication certification that was signed off my Mr. Cope with my other forms. I have contacted Brielle at Shooters to see if Mr. Rosario will furnish a copy of his NRA instructor credentials to me. Hopefully that will resolve the issue.
Trooper Peterson claimed to be a 2A supporter (he even claimed that he conducted civilian training classes) but to me, his actions here call that claim into question. How about presuming that, since I do hold a current NJ PtC, that I had successfully completed the use of force training that was required to obtain it (as far as I know, the use of force training requirements have not changed over that period of time)?  If I ever entertained any doubt that there are multiple official forces and actors in NJ government who are looking to see that as few permit holders have the legal right to carry in NJ as they can possibly ensure, by maximizing the number of bureaucratic hoops that must be jumped through, this incident has completely dispelled that.
Any holder of a current NJ PtC who needs to submit SP182/SP182a to NJSP to meet the additional requirements of CCARE might want to keep my experience in mind.

UPDATE:

I sent an email to Jamell Rosario (who was the instructor for my requalification) at 6 AM this morning asking for his assistance in this matter. Mr. Rosario is apparently a NJSP DSG assigned to Firearms Investigation Unit in Trenton, and as such would be eminently qualified in regard to the NJ Permit to Carry requrements. He phoned me at 7:10 AM (unbelievably quick response, imo). He told me that requalifying PtC holders who are NJSP applicants (i.e., no local PD) ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SUBMIT THEIR COMPLETED SP182 FORMS TO *ANY* AUTHORITY. He said that NJSP has no plans to proactively audit the list of PtC holders who are NJSP applicants to confirm requalification per CCARE requirements. His advice to me was to complete my SP182a (list of handguns intended to be carried) and keep that with my SP182 so that I could produce both documents in the event of an incident. He did not indicate that I should keep those documents with me when I carry, but I will probably keep the originals on file at home, and make copies to keep in my car, just in case. Mr. Rosario also told me he would give Dave Peterson at Woodbine a call to "straighten him out". It might be interesting to be a fly on the wall for that conversation...  Many thanks to DSG Rosario for clearing up this matter!!!

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

12 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

I'm sure you're absolutely right. Thanks for setting me straight.

And thank you for addressing the points I raised, rather than thoughtlessly blasting out some sarcastic and dismissive reply...

[xXxplosive 824]

.....more confusion....my son submitted to NJSP in Hunterdon County.....said he needed to submit the 182a as I did with my local PD...they then issued the LTCP.

NJSP 182a.

2C:58-4 Permits to Carry Handguns: One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof. The chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, shall also determine and record a complete description of each handgun the applicant intends to carry.

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

1 hour ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

UPDATE:

I sent an email to Jamell Rosario (who was the instructor for my requalification) at 6 AM this morning asking for his assistance in this matter. Mr. Rosario is apparently a NJSP DSG assigned to Firearms Investigation Unit in Trenton, and as such would be eminently qualified in regard to the NJ Permit to Carry requrements. He phoned me at 7:10 AM (unbelievably quick response, imo). He told me that requalifying PtC holders who are NJSP applicants (i.e., no local PD) ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SUBMIT THEIR COMPLETED SP182 FORMS TO *ANY* AUTHORITY. He said that NJSP has no plans to proactively audit the list of PtC holders who are NJSP applicants to confirm requalification per CCARE requirements. His advice to me was to complete my SP182a (list of handguns intended to be carried) and keep that with my SP182 so that I could produce both documents in the event of an incident. He did not indicate that I should keep those documents with me when I carry, but I will probably keep the originals on file at home, and make copies to keep in my car, just in case. Mr. Rosario also told me he would give Dave Peterson at Woodbine a call to "straighten him out". It might be interesting to be a fly on the wall for that conversation...  Many thanks to DSG Rosario for clearing up this matter!!!

You might want to get that in writing from an official NJSP email address or on headed paper.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:05 AM, Mr.Stu said:

You might want to get that in writing from an official NJSP email address or on headed paper.

I will contact DSM Rosario to see if he is willing to do that, or can furnish a link to some official NJSP communication that states the required handling of SP182 forms clearly. I think I will wait a couple of days. He plainly wasn't too happy about calling me at 7 AM, although I suispect his displeasure was focused on someone other than me.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

I'm making this a new, top-level post under this topic, because I think that is merited by its importance, given what I posted previously. I had another email exchange with my supplemental qualification instructor, DSM Jamell Rosario, NJSP. Jamell told me that his advice against submitting my documents to the Woodbine NJSP station applied only to me, based on my experience with Trooper Petersen rejecting them. That advice does not apply generally. He did not make that clear in his original phone call to me. It seems that in my effort to clarify by passing on current information, I actually further confused things, and for that, I apologize. In my defense, I will contend the the ultimate source of the confusion is the State of New Jersey, but I am truly sorry for making it worse. Jamell told me that he got Petersen "straightened out" and that I should now submit through Woodbine, which I intend to do ASAP.

[xXxplosive 824]

no one likes to get "straightened out"..........omo.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

So, I was able to submit my forms at Woodbine NJSP station early yesterday afternoon. Station was minimally staffed, I'm guessing upcoming holidays were a factor. Two troopers came to the desk after I buzzed for admittance, outfitted in tactical gear; I guess they were either drilling, or on their way to or from some exercise. I asked if Dave Petersen was available, they told me he was out for the day. They looked over my forms, then accepted them. I asked if I could have some kind of receipt, the answer was "sorry, no", which is what I expected (doesn't hurt to ask :-) They did tell me that they would put the forms in the firearms officer's in-box with a note asking him to phone me to confirm receipt on his return. After a bit more back-and-forth, it turns out that Petersen is not assigned to the firarms desk there, which makes my encounter with him a few days back seem all the more strange. Anyway, forms are in, so I am now (hopefully) good to go until my 2024 renewal, or until Matt Platkin dreams up some new obstacle course that he will force current PtC holders to navigate...

[xXxplosive 824]

3 hours ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

After a bit more back-and-forth, it turns out that Petersen is not assigned to the firarms desk there, which makes my encounter with him a few days back seem all the more strange. 

So what makes you think all LEO's are pro 2A........

[maintenanceguy 510]

The law requires your local PD to collect a complete list of firearms you intend to carry.

2C:58-4
The chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, shall also determine and record a complete description of each handgun the applicant intends to carry.

The onus is on the police department. But I realize that requires us to submit that list.  If I was issued a permit (by NJSP) without doing that, I'm not sure I'm in violation of any law since the law didn't direct me to do anything.

That said, I don't see any specific method required to submit the list so I emailed mine to my local NJSP Barracks.  I never got a reply and I'm just keeping the email as proof. List of email addresses is half way down this page: https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/index.shtml

[1LtCAP 4,264]

41 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

The law requires your local PD to collect a complete list of firearms you intend to carry.

2C:58-4
The chief police officer or the superintendent, as the case may be, shall also determine and record a complete description of each handgun the applicant intends to carry.

The onus is on the police department. But I realize that requires us to submit that list.  If I was issued a permit (by NJSP) without doing that, I'm not sure I'm in violation of any law since the law didn't direct me to do anything.

That said, I don't see any specific method required to submit the list so I emailed mine to my local NJSP Barracks.  I never got a reply and I'm just keeping the email as proof. List of email addresses is half way down this page: https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/index.shtml

so does my pd telling me they need nothing else once i gave them the sp182 cause me a problem come jan 1?

[maintenanceguy 510]

9 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

so does my pd telling me they need nothing else once i gave them the sp182 cause me a problem come jan 1?

The law says that the PD has to do something, not that you have to do something.  I am not a lawyer so I'm the wrong guy to ask - but I don't see how you can get into legal trouble for not following a law that directs someone else to do something.

It is going to be something the PD's are going to require before you can get a carry permit going forward.  So, if you want the permit you'll have to submit it.  If you don't do it, you might get your permit revoked. 

I don't see how it's optional but I also don't see how you could get a charge.  But again, not a lawyer.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

19 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

The law says that the PD has to do something, not that you have to do something.  I am not a lawyer so I'm the wrong guy to ask - but I don't see how you can get into legal trouble for not following a law that directs someone else to do something.

It is going to be something the PD's are going to require before you can get a carry permit going forward.  So, if you want the permit you'll have to submit it.  If you don't do it, you might get your permit revoked. 

I don't see how it's optional but I also don't see how you could get a charge.  But again, not a lawyer.

guess i'll submit the form to them next week with a couple pistols on it. they know what i have, and there's always a chance i'll be carrying something else.........