Any chance the FNH SCAR 16s will be available in NJ?

[Caine 147]

I was thinking the same thing certainly wont be me...

[joejaxx 38]

Well I will be buying a FN SCAR in the future and I am not crippling it "just to be safe" as there is absolutely no reason to. It is really not a test case when something is 100% in the clear legal and not a grey area.

[Caine 147]

It may be legal, but how many LEOs do you think will know that? First time someone sees that stock collapse the black helicopters will show up

[Shane45 807]

JoeJaxx, my hat is off to you for not accepting the infringement on your rights!!!! However, do you have an FFL willing to do that transfer? That is going to be hurdle #2 I think.

[Cylinder Head 22]

JoeJaxx, my hat is off to you for not accepting the infringement on your rights!!!! However, do you have an FFL willing to do that transfer? That is going to be hurdle #2 I think.

 

I asked Jen at BH this exact thing. She agreed that it's within the letter of the law to have one, TECHNICALLY, but the police aren't interested in technicalities. The second they see the collapsible stock and flash hider, it's up to the defendant to prove beyond a reasonable doubt if you know what I mean.

[Maksim 1,504]

wow. we are making progress. people seeing the letter of the law and the reality of it. =)

[autoxnyc 4]

The SCARs being shipped now comes with the PWS FCC 556 and has been classified as a non-flash suppressing device by the BATFE.

[joejaxx 38]

JoeJaxx, my hat is off to you for not accepting the infringement on your rights!!!! However, do you have an FFL willing to do that transfer? That is going to be hurdle #2 I think.

 

I asked Jen at BH this exact thing. She agreed that it's within the letter of the law to have one, TECHNICALLY, but the police aren't interested in technicalities. The second they see the collapsible stock and flash hider, it's up to the defendant to prove beyond a reasonable doubt if you know what I mean.

 

You do know if the rifle is NOT NAMED on the list then none of the features matter! There are not any technicalities with this situation at all. I feel sorry if everyone is that blinded If I cannot find a FFL in NJ who is not blinded by this blanket feature ban that does not exist for rifles not named on the NJ Blacklist then I will just go to another state to buy it and bring along a Certificate of Eligibility. Problem solved. 100% Legal since the FN SCAR is a rifle.

[Shane45 807]

Joe, Im not debating the legality. I agree with you what is written. But I also understand business. I understand that if an FFL does something to piss off the state, they can expect weekly state police audits and probably a state tax audit too.(and guess how that works in this state, pure legal extortion). To an FFL, the resultant headach is likely not worth the sale. Remember what our courts did in the Senatorial election. The law was clear, they could not substitute a dem, but they did it anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The court decided the letter of the law wasnt important, intent was. Guess what the court will say about their "intent" on evil features.

 

Also as alluded to by Cylinder head, I think you are forgetting one thing. All firearms ar banned in NJ. The burden of proof is on you by law, and the cost that goes along with it. Our taxes see to it the state has its lawyers so you get to pay for them and your own. But it DOES sound like you are volunteering to be the test case :twisted:

 

Shane

[Maksim 1,504]

Joe, Im not debating the legality. I agree with you what is written. But I also understand business. I understand that if an FFL does something to piss off the state, they can expect weekly state police audits and probably a state tax audit too.(and guess how that works in this state, pure legal extortion). To an FFL, the resultant headach is likely not worth the sale. Remember what our courts did in the Senatorial election. The law was clear, they could not substitute a dem, but they did it anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The court decided the letter of the law wasnt important, intent was. Guess what the court will say about their "intent" on evil features.

 

Also as alluded to by Cylinder head, I think you are forgetting one thing. All firearms ar banned in NJ. The burden of proof is on you by law, and the cost that goes along with it. Our taxes see to it the state has its lawyers so you get to pay for them and your own. But it DOES sound like you are volunteering to be the test case :twisted:

 

Shane

 

 

I have to agree once again with Shane.... yes, the Scar is not on the banned list.... however I hope you put away 3x as much in a legal fund to prove it. and then.... what will happen when the list gets updated?

[KpdPipes 388]

Joe, Im not debating the legality. I agree with you what is written. But I also understand business. I understand that if an FFL does something to piss off the state, they can expect weekly state police audits and probably a state tax audit too.(and guess how that works in this state, pure legal extortion). To an FFL, the resultant headach is likely not worth the sale. Remember what our courts did in the Senatorial election. The law was clear, they could not substitute a dem, but they did it anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The court decided the letter of the law wasnt important, intent was. Guess what the court will say about their "intent" on evil features.

 

Also as alluded to by Cylinder head, I think you are forgetting one thing. All firearms ar banned in NJ. The burden of proof is on you by law, and the cost that goes along with it. Our taxes see to it the state has its lawyers so you get to pay for them and your own. But it DOES sound like you are volunteering to be the test case :twisted:

 

Shane

 

 

I have to agree once again with Shane.... yes, the Scar is not on the banned list.... however I hope you put away 3x as much in a legal fund to prove it. and then.... what will happen when the list gets updated?

 

 

10X would be more appropriate..as a START. I know I have Zero Desire to play "Test Case" personally, so all of MY guns are NJ-Complaint.

[Cylinder Head 22]

 

You do know if the rifle is NOT NAMED on the list then none of the features matter! There are not any technicalities with this situation at all. I feel sorry if everyone is that blinded If I cannot find a FFL in NJ who is not blinded by this blanket feature ban that does not exist for rifles not named on the NJ Blacklist then I will just go to another state to buy it and bring along a Certificate of Eligibility. Problem solved. 100% Legal since the FN SCAR is a rifle.

 

I'm in agreement with you here, and trust me I'd love it if someone on this board would transfer an intact SCAR or ACR into my hands with NJ paperwork, but I know the second I took it to the range, questions would be asked.

[joejaxx 38]

Joe, Im not debating the legality. I agree with you what is written. But I also understand business. I understand that if an FFL does something to piss off the state, they can expect weekly state police audits and probably a state tax audit too.(and guess how that works in this state, pure legal extortion). To an FFL, the resultant headach is likely not worth the sale. Remember what our courts did in the Senatorial election. The law was clear, they could not substitute a dem, but they did it anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The court decided the letter of the law wasnt important, intent was. Guess what the court will say about their "intent" on evil features.

 

Also as alluded to by Cylinder head, I think you are forgetting one thing. All firearms ar banned in NJ. The burden of proof is on you by law, and the cost that goes along with it. Our taxes see to it the state has its lawyers so you get to pay for them and your own. But it DOES sound like you are volunteering to be the test case :twisted:

 

Shane

 

 

I have to agree once again with Shane.... yes, the Scar is not on the banned list.... however I hope you put away 3x as much in a legal fund to prove it. and then.... what will happen when the list gets updated?

 

 

10X would be more appropriate..as a START. I know I have Zero Desire to play "Test Case" personally, so all of MY guns are NJ-Complaint.

 

I just do not understand how it would be a test case if the law is 100% clear on it. The feature ban for rifles does not exist in the law but in the form of a letter which is a guideline on CLONES of firearms ON the blacklist. The FN SCAR in its stock form IS NJ Compliant because it is not a clone of anything on the list or on the list itself (ie If everyone understands this: how would this all of a sudden turn into a massive legal battle then?). Unfortunately, if people questioning the legality of my FN SCAR cannot read (ie see that the model of my rifle says FN SCAR-H and that it is not on the list) then I think we have bigger problems. It is not like we are talking about a Colt AR-15 (Named) versus a Smith and Wesson M&P15 (Clone) or for example a clone grey area like the Steyr AUG (Named) versus the MSAR ("Clone"). I am planning on purchasing a MSAR as well and I will make sure it has a fixed compensator on it since that is a TRUE grey area. We are talking about a firearm not on the list at all, not a clone of a firearm on the list, does not look like any firearm on the list nor would be covered under the firearm-type bans. I think people need to rethink about the reason they came out with that letter in the first place (ie CLONES on the blacklist and not a general blanket feature ban on all semiautomatic rifles). If they wanted us to cripple ALL of our rifles they would have just said in the NJ statutes "All semiautomatic rifles with the follow features are banned along with the rifles listed under the assault firearms definition!" just like they have with semiautomatic shotguns. Sorry but for me this is one of the most clearly defined parts of the NJ gun laws in terms of the legality of firearms not on the blacklist.

[joejaxx 38]

 

You do know if the rifle is NOT NAMED on the list then none of the features matter! There are not any technicalities with this situation at all. I feel sorry if everyone is that blinded If I cannot find a FFL in NJ who is not blinded by this blanket feature ban that does not exist for rifles not named on the NJ Blacklist then I will just go to another state to buy it and bring along a Certificate of Eligibility. Problem solved. 100% Legal since the FN SCAR is a rifle.

 

I'm in agreement with you here, and trust me I'd love it if someone on this board would transfer an intact SCAR or ACR into my hands with NJ paperwork, but I know the second I took it to the range, questions would be asked.

 

Well we can start informing people like I am in this thread

[Maksim 1,504]

 

You do know if the rifle is NOT NAMED on the list then none of the features matter! There are not any technicalities with this situation at all. I feel sorry if everyone is that blinded If I cannot find a FFL in NJ who is not blinded by this blanket feature ban that does not exist for rifles not named on the NJ Blacklist then I will just go to another state to buy it and bring along a Certificate of Eligibility. Problem solved. 100% Legal since the FN SCAR is a rifle.

 

I'm in agreement with you here, and trust me I'd love it if someone on this board would transfer an intact SCAR or ACR into my hands with NJ paperwork, but I know the second I took it to the range, questions would be asked.

 

Well we can start informing people like I am in this thread

 

 

Joe, you really are not understanding this....

 

WE all are in agreement with that fact that if you follow the law to a T, the Scar is legal and you can go apeshit with it because it is not on the named list.... HOWEVER.... the New Jersey State Police, whose job is to interpret and execute the laws, does not care.

 

Most of they time they themselves do not know the laws, and throw everything in together, and often times, calls FFL's for clarification. Besides that, many FFL's will not risk their license by selling you one of them.

 

If I was an FFL, and was in the business of selling firearms, I would not put my license on the line to sell 1 FN Scar as it is. Pinning the FN and putting in a muzzle break is cheap insurance. Why would any FFL risk losing their lifeline by not doing so?

 

FWIW, last time I was in PA at a gun show, I saw a few FN Scar's there.... no dealer would sell them to a NJ resident.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

So the question is.. have we found an FFL who is willing to do the transfer?

[Teufelhunden 6]

Joejaxx, thank you for your posts. I always thought that if a semi rifle had a detachable mag and 2 "evil" features then it was "substantially identical" to any generic assault rifle. After reading your posts I think you might be on to something with these newer rifles.

Because I was under that impression for so long I would still be very hesitant in buying one. A letter from the State Police or Attorney General would ease my mind on this. I hate to be one of those people that are afraid to exercise their rights for fear of getting in trouble, but in this case I would like some verification.

If you are right this would open the door to other rifles like H&K G36 and UMP clones, Bushmaster ACR, as well as others I haven't thought of.

[Maksim 1,504]

So the question is.. have we found an FFL who is willing to do the transfer?

 

I would contact them individually.

[joejaxx 38]

Joejaxx, thank you for your posts. I always thought that if a semi rifle had a detachable mag and 2 "evil" features then it was "substantially identical" to any generic assault rifle. After reading your posts I think you might be on to something with these newer rifles.

Because I was under that impression for so long I would still be very hesitant in buying one. A letter from the State Police or Attorney General would ease my mind on this. I hate to be one of those people that are afraid to exercise their rights for fear of getting in trouble, but in this case I would like some verification.

If you are right this would open the door to other rifles like H&K G36 and UMP clones, Bushmaster ACR, as well as others I haven't thought of.

 

I think most people have thought that in the past because a lot of the popular rifles are on the blacklist (AR-15, AK47). So people are just used to running rifles in general through the feature banlist "filter" because they have AR-15 and AK47 clones but forget to turn the filter off when it comes to other rifles which are not as popular and not on the list.

[Maksim 1,504]

Joejaxx, thank you for your posts. I always thought that if a semi rifle had a detachable mag and 2 "evil" features then it was "substantially identical" to any generic assault rifle. After reading your posts I think you might be on to something with these newer rifles.

Because I was under that impression for so long I would still be very hesitant in buying one. A letter from the State Police or Attorney General would ease my mind on this. I hate to be one of those people that are afraid to exercise their rights for fear of getting in trouble, but in this case I would like some verification.

If you are right this would open the door to other rifles like H&K G36 and UMP clones, Bushmaster ACR, as well as others I haven't thought of.

 

I think most people have thought that in the past because a lot of the popular rifles are on the blacklist (AR-15, AK47). So people are just used to running rifles in general through the feature banlist "filter" because they have AR-15 and AK47 clones but forget to turn the filter off when it comes to other rifles which are not as popular and not on the list.

 

 

Partially, true, however the vast majority of the people do not want to take the risk. Trust me, when you get pulled over, or are at the range when the state police comes for inspection... they are not going to immediately care if your SCAR is on the list or not. You will be arrested, and your precious scar will be taken into evidence. Then you will have to convince a lawyer to take your case, pay the big retainer, go to court, prove to the prosecutor that your FN Scar is not on the list, and then they will throw it out. Then after time, they will return your rifle... hopefully.

 

Once again, we know the rifle is not on the list, and 95% of the dealers know that it is not on the list, however you dont have to convince the dealer, you have to convince the state police.

 

Much like when the state police sent a letter to all the C&R holders telling them that NJ deems them to be a Dealer, and they have to follow all of the FFL regulations. If they didn't, they would be in violation and can be jailed. It happened. Even though the C&R is a federal type of license... in NJ it does not apply after the State Police said so.

 

So given the circumstance..... would you rather take the risk, or pin the friggin stock. And btw... I dont think any dealer will let you walk out without at least pinning it.

[Shane45 807]

Joe, I dont think you are getting it because you arent looking past the black and white of the statute you are reading. If I had to take a guess here I would also bet that your late to mid 20's or younger and just havent had the life experience to see what we are saying. Here is a test for you. Take a pic of the SCAR, The ACR, a COLT HBAR, a ban compliant Bushmaster, a ban compliant AK47, an m16, an M4, a reminton 700, a ruger red label, an 870 wingmaster and show them to a bunch of your non shooting friends and ask them to pick out the assault rifles. Welcome to your jury. Read this next paragraph carefully!!!

 

If the AG/DA office did not want the flood of SCARS and ACR's with folders and FH to hit this state and undermine the evil features/ban in place, you WILL be found guilty. They will see to it. They have to find you guilty to set the precident. Of course you can appeal. In the mean time everything you own will sit in a firearm evidence room in Toms River where it will get finger F'ed, tossed about, dinged, and shitted up while you wait for your appeal. It should only take a year or two.

 

Personally I think its a slippery slope. Corzine being out helps BUT do we really want to point out to the teacher she forgot to assign the homework? We currently enjoy a loophole in a state that hates us. I thought about calling the AG! I actually made the call.... and hung up. About the ONLY way Id own an evil featured up rifle is if I had a letter in hand from the state AG.

 

Like I tell my kids, theres the way it should be, and then theres the way it is.

[Maksim 1,504]

btw, I am myself in late 20's. =) and yes, in the begining I saw it as a crystal clear line.

 

After going to the firearms meetings/hearings in Trenton, and talking to FFL's, and being friendly with local detectives, I am finally starting to realize the big picture, and while there is a fine line.... it is covered up by the big grey area.

 

I would love to have a vendor chime in here, or someone who HAD a C&R in the past.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

We have at least one member here who has a current C&R.

[Shane45 807]

Ya know... I wasnt going to talk about age. Always exceptions! Shit how many 40 somethings do you know that shoot, Ride a Busa, have to steal their Korn cd back from their kids and can beat all their kids teenage friends at Call of Duty! :oops:

 

The LAW is simply not black and white. Heres an example.

 

I had the Memo form the superintendant of state police saying that blocking your mags was acceptable. Here it was in black and white from a state entity saying I was good to go. AG office got wind. Condemned the memo and voided it!!! I spoke with the State police directly on this and I was cryptically told, the memo is going to be found null and void as a direct result of the current powers that be(meaning Corzine administration). I also got tipped off from a bunch of LE friends that some non gun friendly LEO's were hooking people up for having blocked mags under the new decision. It was voided by the AG's office under the grounds the State Police did not have the authority to issue that memo.

[Caine 147]

I had the Memo form the superintendant of state police saying that blocking your mags was acceptable. Here it was in black and white from a state entity saying I was good to go. AG office got wind. Condemned the memo and voided it!!! I spoke with the State police directly on this and I was cryptically told, the memo is going to be found null and void as a direct result of the current powers that be(meaning Corzine administration). I also got tipped off from a bunch of LE friends that some non gun friendly LEO's were hooking people up for having blocked mags under the new decision. It was voided by the AG's office under the grounds the State Police did not have the authority to issue that memo.

Eh? This sounds like it might need a thread of its own :shock:

[Shane45 807]

Let me clarify. A TON of people had this memo. Especially those of us in the open division high cap crowds in IPSC. Yet again NJ likes to create criminals....

[Caine 147]

Ah, ok.

 

On a related note, the FFL I use most often won't deal with any AK-type firearms, because he has asked the NJSP to provide in writing that they're ok for him to sell/transfer, and they won't give him anything. So, he won't touch them. I wouldn't be surprised if some FFLs end up feeling the same way about the SCAR without something in writing from the NJSP. That said, apparently it doesn't matter what the NJSP says according to the AG :roll:

[Cylinder Head 22]

Here's an interesting wrinkle in this whole argument:

 

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_ag2.html

On August 19, 1996, the New Jersey State Attorney General issued guidelines regarding the "Substantially Identical" provision in the State's assault firearms laws, N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(2). These guidelines define, in addition to the firearms specifically enumerated as assault firearms in N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(1), those firearms which are manufactured under any designation which are also classified as assault firearms.

 

Pay attention to the very last line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the SCAR is without a doubt an assault firearm.

[Shane45 807]

Cylinder, Im on the same thought pattern as you. All a prosecuter needs to do is pull up 1 pic of 1 socom operator with a SCAR and say, intent of the law, that is identical to that.

[joejaxx 38]

Here's an interesting wrinkle in this whole argument:

 

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_ag2.html

On August 19, 1996, the New Jersey State Attorney General issued guidelines regarding the "Substantially Identical" provision in the State's assault firearms laws, N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(2). These guidelines define, in addition to the firearms specifically enumerated as assault firearms in N.J.S. 2C:39-1w(1), those firearms which are manufactured under any designation which are also classified as assault firearms.

 

Pay attention to the very last line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the SCAR is without a doubt an assault firearm.

 

Nope. That is talking about clones of weapons on the list. Colt AR-15 vs Bushmaster AR-15 vs S&W M&P15. That is what they use to determine what is a clone of a firearm on the list. If they had not released that I could still have my FN SCAR since it is not on the list and no one could have any of the aforementioned rifles. Either way it is still legal The only thing that letter did was allow people to buy clones of the rifles they list that are banned in New Jersey if they did not have certain features. Outside of that you now happily being able to buy an M&P15 or an R-15 where as you would not be able to be before: it restricts nothing more.