Do you realistically think we will ever see a day when CCW

[Matt 0]

is reasonably available to people in NJ?

[Chad 3]

No.

[AtlanticCounty 0]

Hope so, but not optimistic.

[Matt 0]

Has anyone on this board actually applied for one (knowing that you would be denied) just for the sake of doing it?

[67gtonut 847]

NEVER SEE IT....

[AtlanticCounty 0]

Has anyone on this board actually applied for one (knowing that you would be denied) just for the sake of doing it?

 

I wouldn't, because you would have to answer "yes" if they ask "have you ever been denied for a CCW permit before" on any other application that you might fill out in another state in the future.

[NJ609 22]

A lot is going to depend on the SCOTUS 2A decision and how many lawsuits people in NJ file afterwords.

[SpecOps2087 3]

A lot is going to depend on the SCOTUS 2A decision and how many lawsuits people in NJ file afterwords.

 

 

That pretty much sums it up. Along with the 2a decision, the DOJ decision (in the works now) on whether you can carry in DC will also be crucial for carry in NJ.

[NJ609 22]

I mean seriously, what's the point of having the right to defend your life but only when at home, or at a range, or when hunting. It's stupid. We live in a state run by idiots.

 

Someone in Camden getting robbed sure isn't thinking "gee I'm glad we have such strong gun laws that don't allow me to carry!". :evil:

[matty 810]

Un-likely. NJ is not the South or west. Maybe things were different a long time ago, before I was born, but the attitude where I grew up (NNJ, Essex and Passaic and bergen Cty.), guns were used for hunting for extra meat out in the woods of PA or by criminals. They were considered unnecessary luxury items by my older relatives. Wanna shoot at targets? Join da Army! Whataya wanna carry a gun for? Hah? Be a big time hoodlum? It was frowned upon, to put things mildly. Not because anyone was afraid of a massacre.

[matty 810]

Oh, and welcome to a Fellow Matt! I think we are taking the place over....

[Matt 0]

A lot is going to depend on the SCOTUS 2A decision and how many lawsuits people in NJ file afterwords.

What SCOTUS decision are you referring to? Can someone give me an overview?

[djg0770 481]

You need to start with DC vs Heller and then follow up with McDonald vs Chicago

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

[BCeagle 12]

I say yes, us lawyers will finally be good for something.

[unclenunzie 3]

Yes, I believe SCOTUS will rule this year to incorporate 2A thus applying it to the States. After that there will be kicking and screaming but in the end the RKBA will be the law of the land in all 50 states. As to how it will be administered is another question, but I think the hard-nosed resistance to it in NJ will crumble flat once the ruling is done. There may be delaying tactics and all manner of shrieking and hand-wringing, but in the end we will re-join the rest of America.

 

One thing I hope to see is the dismantling of the handgun permits system, and all the references requirements. No one's rights should ever be subject to arbitrary approval by others, although I do feel violent offenders and the like should be looked at very closely. Anyone who has a clean record should be unencumbered, whatsoever.

 

unclenunzie

[Matt 0]

Yes, I believe SCOTUS will rule this year to incorporate 2A thus applying it to the States. After that there will be kicking and screaming but in the end the RKBA will be the law of the land in all 50 states. As to how it will be administered is another question, but I think the hard-nosed resistance to it in NJ will crumble flat once the ruling is done. There may be delaying tactics and all manner of shrieking and hand-wringing, but in the end we will re-join the rest of America.

 

One thing I hope to see is the dismantling of the handgun permits system, and all the references requirements. No one's rights should ever be subject to arbitrary approval by others, although I do feel violent offenders and the like should be looked at very closely. Anyone who has a clean record should be unencumbered, whatsoever.

 

unclenunzie

 

I'm not that familiar with the current SCOTUS issues - the last thing I remember is the motion to have CCW permits in one state valid in all other state but I thought that was already rejected? What do you mean by the "incorporation" one? any details are appreciated!

[Maksim 1,504]

I say yes.... after a big grassroots movement.

 

NJGF gets 500,000 members, of the 800,000 gun owners in nj. then we all go sign petitions, and call every single day. The representatives will just be fed up with the calls and pass the CCW bill in the state senate.

[unclenunzie 3]

Yes, I believe SCOTUS will rule this year to incorporate 2A thus applying it to the States. After that there will be kicking and screaming but in the end the RKBA will be the law of the land in all 50 states. As to how it will be administered is another question, but I think the hard-nosed resistance to it in NJ will crumble flat once the ruling is done. There may be delaying tactics and all manner of shrieking and hand-wringing, but in the end we will re-join the rest of America.

 

One thing I hope to see is the dismantling of the handgun permits system, and all the references requirements. No one's rights should ever be subject to arbitrary approval by others, although I do feel violent offenders and the like should be looked at very closely. Anyone who has a clean record should be unencumbered, whatsoever.

 

unclenunzie

 

I'm not that familiar with the current SCOTUS issues - the last thing I remember is the motion to have CCW permits in one state valid in all other state but I thought that was already rejected? What do you mean by the "incorporation" one? any details are appreciated!

 

The CCW bill was before congress but did not get the full 60 Senate votes which would have

immunized it from fillibuster. Nothing to do with SCOTUS.

 

Good read on 14th amendment and specifically incorporation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution

 

In a nutshell, the 14th amendment has been used since the civil war to apply a number of rights in the bill of rights to the States. 2A incorporation by 14th amendment would apply 2A rights to all States and not just to Federal enclaves such as DC. It's history is most notable in striking down racist State laws which did not recognize citizenship and rights of ex-slaves.

 

SCOTUS decision in Heller vs DC established RKBA as an individual right, ending the BS about only Militias (National Guards) having said rights. The newer case still pending, McDonald vs Chicago, seeks to overturn Chicago gun ban on the basis of 2A application to States via 14A. Broadly speaking, such a decision would include the right to carry in all states since RKBA in 2A is one of a piece.

 

All of this is my interpretation. I'm no lawyer and just giving my personal opinion only, standard disclaimer

 

unclenunzie

[djg0770 481]

What do you mean by the "incorporation" one? any details are appreciated!

 

Check your PM's

[Matt 0]

Yes, I believe SCOTUS will rule this year to incorporate 2A thus applying it to the States. After that there will be kicking and screaming but in the end the RKBA will be the law of the land in all 50 states. As to how it will be administered is another question, but I think the hard-nosed resistance to it in NJ will crumble flat once the ruling is done. There may be delaying tactics and all manner of shrieking and hand-wringing, but in the end we will re-join the rest of America.

 

One thing I hope to see is the dismantling of the handgun permits system, and all the references requirements. No one's rights should ever be subject to arbitrary approval by others, although I do feel violent offenders and the like should be looked at very closely. Anyone who has a clean record should be unencumbered, whatsoever.

 

unclenunzie

 

I'm not that familiar with the current SCOTUS issues - the last thing I remember is the motion to have CCW permits in one state valid in all other state but I thought that was already rejected? What do you mean by the "incorporation" one? any details are appreciated!

 

The CCW bill was before congress but did not get the full 60 Senate votes which would have

immunized it from fillibuster. Nothing to do with SCOTUS.

 

Good read on 14th amendment and specifically incorporation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution

 

In a nutshell, the 14th amendment has been used since the civil war to apply a number of rights in the bill of rights to the States. 2A incorporation by 14th amendment would apply 2A rights to all States and not just to Federal enclaves such as DC. It's history is most notable in striking down racist State laws which did not recognize citizenship and rights of ex-slaves.

 

SCOTUS decision in Heller vs DC established RKBA as an individual right, ending the BS about only Militias (National Guards) having said rights. The newer case still pending, McDonald vs Chicago, seeks to overturn Chicago gun ban on the basis of 2A application to States via 14A. Broadly speaking, such a decision would include the right to carry in all states since RKBA in 2A is one of a piece.

 

All of this is my interpretation. I'm no lawyer and just giving my personal opinion only, standard disclaimer

 

unclenunzie

 

Thanks for the info this clears up alot - Can you explain further why this would have an effect on rights to carry? Couldn't the state still argue that they are already abiding by RKBA by allowing citizens to keep guns in their homes and that carry doesn't necessarily apply?

[unclenunzie 3]

It really comes down to the text of the 2A:

 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

The way I see it, if you are required to adhere to any of it, you have to adhere to all of it, not just the bits you find agreeable. So for me this means NJ lawmakers will have to establish a normal process and become a "shall issue" state, in order to comply with the Constitution (as clarified from time to time by SCOTUS rulings). Personally I'd like to see one of the sensible State systems such as Texas or Florida being adopted as a national model. Eventually I'd like to see CCW handled like Driver licenses, where they are good everywhere, but you have to know and follow local regs. Kind of how it works with CCW licensing among the states that have reciprocity.

 

unclenunzie

[EngineerJet 191]

as it stand right now the "and bear" part is not fully recognized yet since you still can't carry in DC. Alan Gura (the guy who argued and won in Heller) is currently working on that part but he said it may take a few years as he's currently involved with Chicago vs. McDonald and these things take time.

[galapoola 102]

Has anyone on this board actually applied for one (knowing that you would be denied) just for the sake of doing it?

 

You can read about a fellow who got one and his explanation. He has the 3rd entry on this link:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p ... ost3824939

I reached out for more details and his success had to do with professional relationships. If you get involved politically on a local level and are known by the chief and a county judge these things can happen. It's all about networking. They gave him a limited CCW at first, probably to test the waters so to speak. He got an unlimited CCW at renewal. Ironically, when his friends retire he'll loose the CCW because the new guy may not buy his "justifiable cause" for carry.

The "justifiable cause" is legally the weakest point of law IMHO because it is vague. The part of the code that should become void once McDonald v Chicago is settled favorably is the exemptions. NJ says no one can own a gun "except". Well if keep and bear is ruled to be an individual right in the states like SCOTUS did in Heller v DC then NJ has a chance. I'd like to see Christie demand the legislature fix the codes to line up with the bill of rights once this gets ruled on.

[NJ609 22]

It is not useful to have a firearm to defend yourself if you can never carry it to defend yourself. What, do criminals wait till you get home and lock up and put your gun in your pokect to break in and attack you? Or do it on the street where they know in NJ you are a helpless target?

 

RKBA meas what it means, not what our progressive useless and corrupt legislature WANTS it to mean. I'm hoping the SCOTUS decision is *very* clear on this.

[SpecOps2087 3]

I can honestly see a national ccw within the next few years assuming incorporation of the 2a works out in the end.

[mipafox 438]

Has anyone on this board actually applied for one (knowing that you would be denied) just for the sake of doing it?

 

I wouldn't, because you would have to answer "yes" if they ask "have you ever been denied for a CCW permit before" on any other application that you might fill out in another state in the future.

 

I have often read that most states do not consider denial by states such as NJ to be an issue. But - who knows. The risk would bother me as well.

 

There are two problems. One is the corrupt government class, obviously. The other is that most of the people in NJ have no f'ing clue about firearms. I'm not talking about firearms good vs. firearms bad. I'm talking about firearms being NORMAL. I take every opportunity to talk to people in NJ about the fact that I carry. The response is usually something like, "Oh, you can do that in PA? I thought you could do that in Texas but not so close."

 

I like to hit them with this: In 1986 there were 7 Shall Issue states (I explain it), how many do you think there are now? They always answer either "less" or pick a number below 7. They are stunned when I tell them it's 39. I let them know 1/14 people carry in PA. Nationwide, it's 1/20 outside of the ban states. Nobody has a problem with it anywhere.

 

Trying to get antis in NJ to like guns does not always work. Most of the efforts are regarded as propaganda. But the people of NJ don't even understand that guns are NORMAL. That makes it very easy for politicians to scare them about these "radical" suggestions such as CC.

[GoNRA 12]

I say yes.... after a big grassroots movement.

 

NJGF gets 500,000 members, of the 800,000 gun owners in nj. then we all go sign petitions, and call every single day. The representatives will just be fed up with the calls and pass the CCW bill in the state senate.

 

 

i'd rather bring people in that aren't familiar with guns and do not know much about them... rather than the people who already own guns or are for them..

 

But that is an even bigger challenge.. lol

[Genewarper111 18]

Excellent thread and truly informative. Thanks all.

 

At the moment I'd not apply because if denied you'd have to enter it on the NJ PPP and so it could come back to bite you at every new pistol.

 

The other thing I'd urge people to do is to get personal defense insurance against the legal and civil consequences of using lethal force in one's home or outside. The NRA offers it for around $300 a year and from my point of view (I have FL, VA & UT) it's worth having.

 

The final thing I'd offer is that people should get training. Again, the NRA and others run courses designed to cover aspects of defensive in home and out of home use of firearms. At least one of the forum's supporting vendors offers these and if their locations don't suit, you can find other providers. It's relatively easy to get the out of state ccw permits, and I'd encourage people to do so, but also for me that was just the beginning.

 

So - let's all work hard to see this available in NJ and to be able to show that it is a right we will exercise thoughtfully a d responsibly.

 

Happy shooting

G