The difference between an AIMPOINT clone, and the real thing

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Is it truly worth the added cost?

 

An Aimpoint H-1 (or T-1) costs like $500... whereas a Primary Arms Microdot (Aimpoint clone) costs around $100. What are you really getting for all this?

 

I know off the bat, it's better battery life, better workmanship... but if both do the same job, then what's the big deal?

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

What is the cost of saving your life or someone you care about if the SHTF? So the question is do you want to pay now or pay later.

[bbk 188]

I've heard there is also the parallax issue. I understand that all red dots are not truly "parallax free," the name brand ones, like Aimpoint, are better engineered and are as close as possible. Important because with both-eyes open shooting, with the parallax off, you will not be placing your shots where you want. That would take away from the fun of target shooting, or be a liability in a situation.

 

I think the PA red dots are great for .22 or training firearms-- but on your actual rig, go with the real deal (PA will say the same thing). Primary Arms is a great company to deal with by the way. I've been purchasing a lot of my stuff through them for a few years now-- and their customer service and shipping is probably the best I've seen in the industry (considering the size of the company).

 

ETA: Botach has a decent deal going on right now for genuine H-1s. With one of the coupons (stimulus), its 10%, and the other is 15% (I think its 'twitter', though not sure if its still active). So, for a mount (that you'll probably replace) and an H-1, its $495-- with the discounts, it can be as low as $420 + SH. Botach has had terrible customer service in the past, but when I was browsing another forum-- a rep from them actually posted that they wanted to make amends. Basically, after you put through your order (or before), contact dan @ botachtactical . net (no spaces ofc), and let him know-- and he will personally make sure it goes through, and let you know when it ships out. Sometimes its better to contact him prior to make sure everything is in stock, etc. Correspondence was quick and easy for me, and I ended up saving 150-200+ on my H-1.

[MedicYeti 96]

I have this same question. I have owned some really cheap red dots that don't withstand the recoil of big rifles. But what about mid-range sights and clones of proven designs. In a SHTF situation I don't know if I would trust my familys lives to something with batteries. I shoot Iron sights very proficiently and can transition between targets quickly. For fun shooting I'd like a red dot but I can't justify it if it costs almost the same as the firearm. I don't mind spending money on a scope if it sits on top of a high end rifle for hunting or long range shooting.

[crazyboy 13]

Do you plan on going to war with it? If not, then can you justify the additional few hundred for a name brand?

[Shane45 807]

Buy crap twice and you just paid for 1 aimpoint....

 

I can understand it on non go to's or range only's but make sure you have a real one on your goto.

[EchoMirage 137]

i have a $30 tasco from amazon on my AR. while i havent dropped it off the roof yet, it works fine and was very close to zero on first install. even hold zero or close to it when i remove and re-install it. had i not bought that, i would have looked into an aimpoint M4 or eotech knock off, or at the most a decent used original version.

 

if youre THAT worried about top tier quality if zombies attack or red dawn happens, use your knock off till you scavenge equipment off a dead national guard.

[bbk 188]

Looting? Really? F'in MZBs.

The whole point is being responsible. If you get a POS knockoff, and it breaks-- there is no one to blame but yourself for wasting the time and money on a POS.

It wouldn't bother me what you opt to go with. I just condone being responsible... meaning, if you're planning on putting a POS optic on a firearm used to defend yourself and/or others, in any situation-- for their sake, I'd hope it was an optic that is known to work in the field. If its just for range duty, as noted, then go with whatever you want. I'm not saying you have to buy anything ridiculous and end up with a rifle that's worth more then your vehicle. But there are aspects on a weapon system that shouldn't be done cheaply, and optics is one of those things.

[Maksim 1,504]

Iron sights for the win. =)

[totalabuse 27]

Iron sights for the win. =)

 

 

+1

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I think I'm going to lean towards the Primary Arms optic. I'm not a soldier, I don't go to the sandbox often, I have yet to deal with zombies or the post-apocalyptic NJ, and: I have iron-sights.

 

It's hard for me to sit here and justify an additional $400 being spent when that money can buy me ammunition to practice with and store.

 

Furthermore, the cost of a true Aimpoint H-1 at $600 is coming close to the cost of my Stag-1 ($900)... that's pretty insane. But then again, folks who buy ACOGs don't complain.

[Shane45 807]

i can get you a T1 for a good deal better than your quoting an H1 for. I bet all those Korean shop owners that ended up on their rooftops with their AR's defending their property and likely their life during the riots never expected to be there either

 

I am obviously from the buy once cry once camp. I have no problem paying equal or even more than the price of the firearm for the optic. The scope on my rifle was $3300 without mount. If it were on a stock LTR it would be more than 4 times the firearm value...and I would be fine with that. If my Acog was on my bushmaster that would be even money. You really have to realise and think about what an optic is asked to do on a firearm without failure...its a lot! I buy and sell a lot of guns...but not my optics that have proven themselves to me.

 

Buy once.

Cry once.

Train with it.

Hope and pray you never need it.

[EchoMirage 137]

I think I'm going to lean towards the Primary Arms optic. I'm not a soldier, I don't go to the sandbox often, I have yet to deal with zombies or the post-apocalyptic NJ, and: I have iron-sights.

 

It's hard for me to sit here and justify an additional $400 being spent when that money can buy me ammunition to practice with and store.

 

Furthermore, the cost of a true Aimpoint H-1 at $600 is coming close to the cost of my Stag-1 ($900)... that's pretty insane. But then again, folks who buy ACOGs don't complain.

 

 

exactly. not to mention for the $700 saved off a real aimpoint, you can piece together or buy a brand new bulletproof vest or armor carrier with plates, which will 'protect you and your family' just as well as a fancy sight.

 

and who the hell said anyone is complaining that their optic broke?? no one posted a word saying such. and no....two $30 tascos does not equal one $700 aimpoint. if it ever does break, shell out less then $50 and you get a brand new one.

[Chad 3]

Do you plan on going to war with it? If not, then can you justify the additional few hundred for a name brand?

 

I agree. . . if you are not a sniper, LEO or the like then whats the point? I have a knock-off. The difference I see between mine and the $500 ones is that mine doesn't say aimpoint on the side of it. Yes, I've shot numerous times with both. . . I actually don't like either of them . . . decent for indoor range practice, but outside in natural light they suck. They all suck.

[Shane45 807]

You get what you pay for..... If cheap shit that fails doesnt frustrate you or waste your time or possibly cost you your life, by all means have at it.

 

Echo if you think cheap RDS's dont fail, I suggest you do a little research. I stopped counting long ago on the failures I hear about. And the replacements that fail and the replacement for the replacements...... Hit around the $200 mark and it gets a fair amount better. But now its not so easy to just replace it. Treat it rough once and that might be it. The Aimpoint on my AR right now has done three tours at SHOT show being droped, banged and finger f'ed to death, been on an IAR tested by the Marine Corps, and a number of reguler old fashioned range sessions and she still operates like the day I got it. Take ANY cheap RDS and do me a favor, leave it on for seven hours. Does it still work or is the battery dead? I can leave my aimpoint ON for oh about TWO YEARS before I need to change the battery. Crossing a stream, bobble and dip your weapon in the water for a second. Does it still work? The aimpoint is divable to 7 meters IIRC.

 

Im not here to ram expensive optics down anyones throat but I have played with a lot, RDS in particuler. I see the value.

[Shane45 807]

Chad if you were having trouble seeing the dot in daylight with an aimpoint... there was something wrong with it!

[Chad 3]

Yup, I agree. . . if you are a sniper, FBI agent, Marine, etc.

 

For weekend warriors that shoot at a range I can't justify spending that kind of money on a little red dot.

 

It is one thing to depend on a firearm to save your life, it is surely another to depend on a piece of electronic junk. I don't care if it costs $10,000.00 or $10.00 its still electronic junk. If someone breaks into your house and is about to lunge at you with a knife just hope its not the 731st day (2 years and one day) since you changed your batteries. Learn to shoot without the pretty little dot.

 

:twocents-02cents:

[Chad 3]

Chad if you were having trouble seeing the dot in daylight with an aimpoint... there was something wrong with it!

 

All 3 of them?

[Shane45 807]

Quoted from my first post in this thread:

 

"I can understand it on non go to's or range only's but make sure you have a real one on your goto."

 

In regards to all 3, where were you, Mercury?

 

And two years is just my time table its actually good for like 5. 50,000 hours.

 

And as good as I think aimpoints are....Chad you did see the mount I make and why right?

 

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5620

[Chad 3]

Actually Uranus . . . anyway, nice craftsmanship. Very impressive.

[Shane45 807]

Hehe . Thanks for the compliment!

[Maksim 1,504]

Humn, I am on both sides of the fence on this one.

 

While I am not yet in the camp of spending $3k on a piece of glass, I am certainly able to respect any top end Nikon, Pentax, Burris, S&B, Swarowski.

 

At the same time, I would want to look through any optic before buying it.

 

 

Currently I have Nikon & Burris glass. The nikon was a $800 scope on a $800 rifle, and the Burris was a $250 scope on a $1,000 rifle. For a rimfire, you have some great rimfire specific glass, which is great clear glass designed to withstand rimfire.

 

At the same time, I have looked through crappy $100 scopes. For instance, Brunton, had on natchez a $250 scope marked to $80, and was 24x optical. When I got it, shot it once and had to return it. total crap, wasnt even as clear as a bushnell rimfire scope.

 

I find the rifles with better scopes, are not only more enjoyable to shoot, but I shoot them alot more often as well.

 

Lets be honest, if you are complaining about spend another $150 for a scope, or even to spend $150 for a scope, or $300 on an eotech..... shouldn't be shooting. I be anyone of us blows more money on ammo in the course of a few weeks, if not one day.

 

There are a ton of great optics starting at the $130 range.

[crazyboy 13]

I would take a serious look at the sightmark though, they have had great reviews.

[EchoMirage 137]

all this talk about 'trusting an optic to defend your life' sounds way too much like someone playing rambo and hoping red dawn happens. get SERIOUS for a minute. if youre THIS worried about the coming apocalypse and running around with a thousand dollar red dot, do you also have a year of food and water stored? a fortified safe house? gas stores, solar panels, hoards of ammo, clothing, water purification, heating supplies, cooking gear, etc. etc etc.?? get real dude. what do you plan on using this gun with a fancy red dot for? is that what you keep for home defense?? i hope you live a mile from any neighbors or have bulletproof walls.

 

if you actually compete in whatever, then fine, spend YOUR money. but ill be damned if im going to listen to you berate anyone else who has no reason to blow a grand on a site just to make him sleep better at night.

[Redfish62 1]

all this talk about 'trusting an optic to defend your life' sounds way too much like someone playing rambo and hoping red dawn happens. get SERIOUS for a minute. if youre THIS worried about the coming apocalypse and running around with a thousand dollar red dot, do you also have a year of food and water stored? a fortified safe house? gas stores, solar panels, hoards of ammo, clothing, water purification, heating supplies, cooking gear, etc. etc etc.?? get real dude. what do you plan on using this gun with a fancy red dot for? is that what you keep for home defense?? i hope you live a mile from any neighbors or have bulletproof walls.

 

if you actually compete in whatever, then fine, spend YOUR money. but ill be damned if im going to listen to you berate anyone else who has no reason to blow a grand on a site just to make him sleep better at night.

 

+1

[Chad 3]

all this talk about 'trusting an optic to defend your life' sounds way too much like someone playing rambo and hoping red dawn happens. get SERIOUS for a minute. if youre THIS worried about the coming apocalypse and running around with a thousand dollar red dot, do you also have a year of food and water stored? a fortified safe house? gas stores, solar panels, hoards of ammo, clothing, water purification, heating supplies, cooking gear, etc. etc etc.?? get real dude. what do you plan on using this gun with a fancy red dot for? is that what you keep for home defense?? i hope you live a mile from any neighbors or have bulletproof walls.

 

if you actually compete in whatever, then fine, spend YOUR money. but ill be damned if im going to listen to you berate anyone else who has no reason to blow a grand on a site just to make him sleep better at night.

 

Very well put. . .

 

+1

[Tactical Monkey 51]

just to make him sleep better at night.

 

The rest of your post was not necessary... And to be honest, neither is this argument. What someone spends there money on when it comes to firearms is up to each individual.

Some spend boatloads on ammo while others reload - argument.

Some say leather is far superior to kydex for holsters, other say why own a holster is NJ - argument.

Some buy cheap knock-offs of every accessory known to man, some will only buy ACOGs on Larue Mounts - argument.

Some value safety of their family as precedent, others just like to shoot things - current argument.

 

 

The important part is realizing that to each their own, and sleeping better at night.

 

Can't we all just get along?

[Shane45 807]

Holly shit guys, do you not follow any major events??? You may not want to survive the appocolypse but Id sure like to be able to survive say...Katrina! Theres only about 1000 stories out of that event on those that were armed were able to remain unscathed. Luck favors the prepared. Do I feel the need to go to the extremes mentioned above. No. But do I want to make sure I have equipment good enough to get me out of dodge in an event, damn right! How many times do you see violence on the news in the supermarket every time its going to snow for 3 days and people get nuts? After 9-11 is it really hard to invision a catastrophe in our area? I had several friends doing PSD work in Katrina and I can tell you the stories that never made the news were absolutely horrifying. Think gang rapes and stuffing the teen body in the fridge....

 

Consider what forms your opinion on whats good enough for what you want. Spend 50 bucks for the convenience of using a red dot at the range and dont care if it fails. Have at it. I DO IT. But theres no clone on my guns I would rely on if I found I needed to. If you shot 150 rounds under it and called it good for goto.... I would suggest talking to some shoot school instructors. They see what regulerly fails at a much higher rate than the rest of us. See below for an example.

 

Price point. Man every post the cost seems to go up up and away! Hell would you guys like me to do an aimpoint group buy or what. I can not post the price publically but it would be WAAAAY below what has been posted here! If you watch other boards I see lightly used aimpoints frequently for around 500 bucks. Thats pretty far off from $1000.

 

Im not sure who the Rambo comments and the berating comments are directed at. I havent really seen either in this thread. Do your own research. Go pop aimpoint verses clone in google. Go read the threads. They seem to all end up the same way. I bought, I replaced, I boudght I replaced, then I learned and bought the real thing.

 

Maks, when it comes to scopes (magnified) the arena changes quite a bit. The needs vs price point opens up greatly. And there is a threshold of diminished returns. Where some of us get pinched is when you need a specific series of requirements. If you need a quality reliable optic that is FFP Mil/Mil with enough travel you find yourself stuck in S&B, PH, Hendsholt, US Optics land. I had a Nikon tactical. Its a great scope. Rugged, reliable etc etc but it only comes in MOA and SFP. You can get an IOR MIL/MIL FFP but thats still a 1600 optic. This is set to change when Vortex Optics releases their PST line. There is one other option from SWFA but... odd magnification (3X9) hold it up for me. Now if you dont need variable mag or dont need mil mil or FFP the arena opens up considerably and gives you MANY more good quality optics at much lower price points. Now that my brain is stuck in metric land I need to either get another S&B or wait for a lower cost but good enough alternative. Im still waiating.... and my GAP AR10 is still without glass.

 

My lifes experience. I learned long ago that the addage you get what you pay for is pretty spot on. And usually for the same reason. I always buy the best I can afford because when I dont it usually ends up in failure, frustration, repurchase, unintended consequences... all bad. So I buy the best I can within reason. For example Craftsman tools are good enough, I dont need snap on. But when it came to my Milling machine Vices and machine tooling... well I spent big money there because its worth it. The end result is obvious in the quality of the part that results and the lack of headaches associated with lesser quality tools.

 

 

Here is an excerpt of a post from 2003 from Pat Rogers to me illustrating what I am talking about with what trainers see.

 

Hi Shane,

Mr. Rogers was my Dad- my name is Pat.

 

No, no specific string of fire.

The issue of malfunctions/ parts failure is directly related to use.

The average Joe does not normally subject the gun to hard use. That is, he may take the gun out to a range where only shooting from a bench is permitted- no rapid fire etc.

It is not necessarily the total number of rounds fired, but often the number of rounds fired in a compressed time frame.

This is another reason why attending a formal class of instruction is necessary. Shooting 500 rounds over the course of 6 months isn't the same as shooting 500 rounds in a day under supervision.

We often have shooters who bring guns that won't function on Day 1. They will claim that the guns worked fine yesterday (or last week) but they won't today, and i'm sure they are being truthful. Parts wear, break and otherwise fail, and while some is normal, a lot is due to inferior quality on the manufacturing end.

I don't want a light duty anything. I want something that works under all circumstances (given normal PM).

The individual has to decide the cost/reliability thing. If you don't want/ need something for other than casual plinking or admiring it in the safe, anything will do. It's just that you shouldn't expect a Frankengun to actually perform under circumstance of hard use for any length of time.

 

Someone asked about the Wilson AR. I have seen only one at Gunsite, and it performed admirably.

Of course it was used by a retired LtCol of Marines who is now a civilian contractor still in the business, so i would expect no less.

 

Re brands. Anyone is capable of of turning out great stuff or garbage. Consistency is the key. Some makers are very consistent (one way or the other) and some fluctuate wildly.

People will fall in love with a name or individual piece of equipment often because it is what they bought and they hate to think that they are wrong. There is no perfection in manufacturing (regardless of hype). Mistakes happen. But you have to remember that consistency is the key.

I get to see a lot of rounds fired down range from a lot of different guns. I'll base my opinions on my experience, and i'll stand by that.

[bbk 188]

I'm with you, Shane. But I also agree that people are free to spend as they desire.

 

My perspective doesn't even have to do with SHTF or "Rambo" crap. It has to do with depending on materials that are field proven to be reliable on most cases when things do go badly. Yea, life will progress forward, and, frankly, my being prepared will never really manifest itself for the most part. However, whether its a disaster of any kind, or someone breaking into my home and threatening me and my own-- I would have rather taken the extra measures.

 

At the same time, and I've said this repeatedly, I absolutely HATE people who say they would rely on their systems to defend them-- and have never trained for a stress situation. I'm not indicating elitism-- that if someone didn't serve they're less of a person. I'm saying that if a person relies on their firearm(s) to protect them at any level, they better be trained. Why? Otherwise they're a liability, and I do take issue with people like that because they will get an innocent person hurt or even them self. My point here is that if someone is properly trained (through service or courses open to the public) then they will know why its worth spending the extra on certain equipment (as noted in Shane's post). Its not about being "tacticool" or being paranoid... its about application of experience.

 

But hey, people are free to do whatever they want.

[Shane45 807]

bbk an excellent point!!! If my budget came down to training or an optic.... training it is. I am often asked why I dont do night sites on my 1911's. I always answer the following (not trying to start a side debate :hand: ) If It is that dark, can I ID my target well enough to even take the shot? I also feel they may impede me as I waste time searching for the site instead of breaking the emergency shot. I rely on some training excercises and muscle memory instead. Here is the example I cite. I was shooting an open class pistol in IPSC. Shooter ready, stand by....beep. Draw, aim, CRAP NO RED DOT!!! Well, the 30mm tube was enough of a ghost ring and my muscle mem to complete the course of fire with no mikes!!! How I trained. From every wacky position I spent a great deal of time doing the following. Pick an object. Close my eyes. Draw and aim. Open my eyes, am I on? No, do it again!

 

It surely boils down to your level of comitment. Mine is not as high as I would like it to be. The goal is to train with good equipment. And here again is the sound of dead horse flesh getting beat, how good is your training if your being distracted with failing or non performing products? If you spent $1000 on a training class, 400 on travel, 500 in ammo, whats the siginificance of another 250 to get the right optic so that its not wasted or hampered if your 50 dollar optic fails during class?