M-16 ineffective in the sandbox?

[Maksim 1,504]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... d=10707413

 

Interesting article, read it, take a look. Discuss.

 

At the end, they note part of the reason is lost velocity due to 14.5 inch barrels vs 20. Just how much velocity are you losing at 300 meters with a 6 inch smaller barrel?

[Malsua 1,422]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10707413

 

Interesting article, read it, take a look. Discuss.

 

At the end, they note part of the reason is lost velocity due to 14.5 inch barrels vs 20. Just how much velocity are you losing at 300 meters with a 6 inch smaller barrel?

 

300fps?

 

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

[usnmars 136]

I know when I was sent to the "armpit of the world" I always carried an m14. I always had pick of the armory when I went into the field and the 14 is what I chose. I can say that on a couple of occasions, I saw 16's and m4's jam catastrophically. Not something you want to see in a SHTF scenario. This is recently, not in the Vietnam days. I have also seen people get hit with the 5.56 and act like nothing happened, just keep moving. If you get hit with a .308, I dont care where, you are going down. All of the long shots I saw, they always called for the guy carrying the .308. Maybe one day the military will switch back to a real rifle round, not one that was designed to shoot woodchucks! When my life is on the line I guarantee I will not be carrying a glorified .22!

[bbk 188]

The rock box is a whole different beast then the sand box. In Iraq, as noted, most engagements are done within 100M, and usually if any shots are fired, its into a dusty haze, etc. Afghanistan is more wide open spaces, terrible terrain, etc. What's interesting about this article is that ABC News didn't reveal that FNH's SCAR MK16, MK17, and MK13 have reached milestone C (Original source: http://soldiersystems.net/2010/05/11/sc ... lestone-c/).

How it relates to this article is that the SCAR MK17 (7.62 NATO) will most likely will become the official MBR of SOCOM (and maybe 'big Army' eventually). Its already in theater with SOCOM units being tested (as well as Multi-Cam unis), and hopefully will get the stamp of approval soon.

[theRU 33]

not well versed in this subject area..but is there a reason we cant have an american manufacturer make a rifle for our troops? Why is our side arm foreign as well?

[Shane45 807]

Hehe well FN held the contract for the M16 and M4 for quite a long time as well. The problem is not so much with the caliber, its the ammo. Civy 5.56 is very effective but the Hague etc etc restricts military ammo. Now some new ammo has come on line, Mk318. It is reportedly siginificantly more effective. I say lets stop with the kinder gentler war crap and use the most lethal shit we can find!!! Interestingly a General shared your views. I dont remember the name. He felt that in an all out possible WW3 scenario, you just cant be sure who your allies and enemies may turn out to be so it is potentially a serious supply risk to have your arms outscourced.

 

On a side note I was getting a bit worked up over the SCAR/ACR. I started thinking about selling my DSA SA58c. Took it to the range last weekend and ran some rounds through it. Still not a fan of the controls but...it is one kick ass rifle. Even for 308 recoil is really manageable as you can see by these pics and brass still in the air.

 

 

[theRU 33]

My thoughts exactly...what helped us in ww2 is that we were able to mass produce weapons of war, even the russians had factories out of reach at the time. I know things are different these days with global strikes being possible, but i'd still rather have our stuff built on home soil. Arent we looking to stimulate our economy anyway???? wtf

[bbk 188]

Its a brand of neo-colonialism. By keeping our fingers in almost every [honey]pot, the US 'dependence' creates, in turn, a dependence on the US as well. Of course a theoretical ELE-inducing war would have no rules, but if the concept of neo-colonialism holds true, would there even be a WW3? Cascading dice are hard to judge where they'll land, but it would seem doubtful that anybody would risk it.

 

I wouldn't mind American-made either, but I agree with what the US is doing now with their contracts. It acts as a deterrence, and possibly a fail-safe if need be.

 

The cruddy thing about the SCAR MK17 (SCAR-H) that comes in 7.62 is that FNH has no current plans for civilian versions. Word is that FNH is usually pretty good about bringing things to the civilian market, but I could imagine they're a bit preoccupied for the time being trying to win a huge contract

[djg0770 481]

Its a brand of neo-colonialism. By keeping our fingers in almost every [honey]pot, the US 'dependence' creates, in turn, a dependence on the US as well. Of course a theoretical ELE-inducing war would have no rules, but if the concept of neo-colonialism holds true, would there even be a WW3? Cascading dice are hard to judge where they'll land, but it would seem doubtful that anybody would risk it.

 

I wouldn't mind American-made either, but I agree with what the US is doing now with their contracts. It acts as a deterrence, and possibly a fail-safe if need be.

 

The cruddy thing about the SCAR MK17 (SCAR-H) that comes in 7.62 is that FNH has no current plans for civilian versions. Word is that FNH is usually pretty good about bringing things to the civilian market, but I could imagine they're a bit preoccupied for the time being trying to win a huge contract

 

We need some neo-isolationism.

[tbtrout 141]

We need some neo-isolationism.

Absolutely

[matty 810]

The article seems to be all about range, some of these issues have started to be addressed to get longer range weapons in there now with the upgrade to and wider distribution of the M21 sniper rifle. Also the Brtish and Canadians changed the BOIP for their people in Afghanistan to add more larger caliber, usually 7.62x51 bolt sniper guns to infantry platoons, and longer barrel versions of the L85 and M16. And of course re-issue of M14s. Good thing the DoD managed to save a couple hundred thousand from Clintons shredder. :evil: Same old brouhaha that has been going on since before WW2, lighter shorter gun with lighter projectile (M1A carbine, Tommy, M4/M16, AK74etc.) vice big heavy rifle with big projectile (M1/M14, Mauser,FAL, Mosin, etc.) The grail has always been something that can do both. Some say the 7.62x39 fits the bill, anyone agree on that And the US at least, has been trying to make some sort of modular weapon system to do it all for quite some time. XM8, anyone? I haven't been following the whole FN SCAR story, didn't know they got milestone C, maybe there will be a SCAR variant issued eventually---

[Wolfy 51]

They need to dump the M4 and go with the Mosin.

[vozella 2]

When Armageddon happens......The weapon I'll take out of the gun safe will be the M14 !

[Maksim 1,504]

Time to go bid on the 308 Vepr's.

[Wolfy 51]

I have a M14 best rifle out there.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

Going to a 20" barrel will do wonders for the 5.56 at longer distances. Anyone who has been in the USMC can attest to the fact that it is very easy to hit center mass on a man sized target at 500 meters with iron sights. The round is still traveling fast when it hits the target. I realize the projectile will not fragment, but hits count. 62g FMJ has over 400ft/lbs of energy at 500 meters, this is more than 115g 9mm and 230g .45ACP at the muzzle.

[joejaxx 38]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10707413

 

Interesting article, read it, take a look. Discuss.

 

At the end, they note part of the reason is lost velocity due to 14.5 inch barrels vs 20. Just how much velocity are you losing at 300 meters with a 6 inch smaller barrel?

 

 

 

Source: http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_fragrange.html