9mm or 45ACP?

[Sigman 41]

If I had only one gun, it would be .45ACP 1911.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Somebody took 22 rounds of .40 S&W once, 17 in center mass, and still lived for 3 minutes after the final shot. I'de say thats a testiment to how puny handgun rounds are in general. Something like 10% of handgun shootings are fatal.

[sirsloop 1]

Ya somebody fell like 8 stories and survived... but we're talking happened one time outta how many?

[Shane45 807]

Handguns being poor stoppers is not a matter of debate, its fact. Nothing to argue here. But no one has come up with something as compact and portable thats better.....

[dave545 15]

[savageshooter 10]

I have both. Without asking for "what purpose" it's hard to answer.

[sirsloop 1]

hmm.. .44 Mag, .454 Casull, .460 Mag, .480 Ruger, .500 Mag ... or the 7.62x54R OBREZ!

 

Those take down bears... I think they would stop a person.

[matt6669 71]

hmm.. .44 Mag, .460 Mag, .454 Casull, .500 Mag

 

or the 7.62x54R OBREZ!

 

Those take down bears... I think they would stop a person.

 

 

Yeah now try to conceal one of them..............

[sirsloop 1]

who said anything about concealing anything? After all CCW in NJ is currently a moot point.

 

Anyways... im sure this wouldnt be too hard.

 

http://www.taurususa.com/product-detail ... series=CF2

 

[Wolfy 51]

45ACP in the XD 13+1. Versus 15+1 0f any 9MM. I will go with the XD if I could have a standard capacity 9MM XDM that would be my first choice.

 

45 GAP is about as useful as Barney Frank.

[Shane45 807]

hmm.. .44 Mag, .454 Casull, .460 Mag, .480 Ruger, .500 Mag ... or the 7.62x54R OBREZ!

 

Those take down bears... I think they would stop a person.

 

 

What you need to understand about shooting anything be it bear or perp is the needed energy transfer to the target and reaching a depth to reach vital organs. A .44 mag for example did not do as well as 9 or 45 statistically. Why? Too much energy that goes through a human target tranfering little of its energy to the target. Essentially an overpenetration issue. Now if you shoot a bear with a 45 with HP ammo, its probably going to be really pissed off AND your rounds may not have reached a depth to hit vitals. Now before you guys send me links of a bear stopped with a .380 a statistic of 1 is useless. The round needs to be matched to the mission just like everything else in shooting.

[sirsloop 1]

So you are saying that if you get hit with a .50 BMG round you have a better chance at survival than if you got hit with a .30-06? BS. A .44 mag JHP will kill you deader than snot just as easy as a .45 ACP JHP. Reach vital organs? How about exploding the vital organ as the bullet smashes its way through.

[67gtonut 847]

STOP!!!!!

 

:hand:

 

 

 

Wow.... how quickly this turned into the ol' caliber war....

 

I know..... Let me go to my car forum and start a "Best Oil to Use?" thread....... That will be just as fun :roll:

[Shane45 807]

Sirsloop you need to go do some reading. Go look up what energy a 50BMG generates. Even if it were 50% transfer to the target that would be what, off the top of my head more than 3X the energy of a 30-06 at 100%. Im not sitting here pulling figures out of thin air. These are statistics from actual shootings for each caliber. Sorry if your a mag fanboy. Im caliber agnostic and pick the right one for what needs to be done. A cns shot frome a 38 special or a 44 will have the same effect. Anything outside of a direct hit to a vital brings in all the other factors. Also, you cannot compare rifle to pistol. The dynamics change dramatically with the increase of hyper velocity. What they CAN do is not in question. Its what they DID do thats important. Out of a metric ton of researched shootings, the 44's DIDNT do better. Thats not a prediction, thats what happened....

[Shane45 807]

Ya know what sirsloop, yer right. There are magic bullets out there that turn all vital organs to goo. They drop the guy right there in his tracks twitching and crapping himself. You can relly on those and your other myths.

 

I will rely on training for shot placement under stress because all research on the topic has PROVEN handguns are not great at stopping bad guys.

[Shane45 807]

One more lesson for you sirsloop. Why has the military changed its 5.56 ammo? Why is there so many reports of BG's taking 4 or 5 hits with ball 5.56 and not going down? Why do I not have any of those same concerns with civy 5.56?

 

The ANSWER is energy transfer.....yet again. 5.56 that drills neat little holes through the target without transfering much energy to the target does little to stop the target. Civy 5.56 that literally explodes inside the target dumping almost 100% of its energy into the target is devastating to said target. I will check next week and see if any of the pictures I have from a military ammo test on actual flesh (not human) are confidential. If not I will post em up.

 

 

Edited to add on second though I will not. This is not the place for them......

[Maksim 1,504]

NJGF 1st Amendment - though shall not question Shane45's logic on facts, ballistics, and very high end optics, mounts and firearms.

 

continue.

 

But in all seriousness, please listen to Shane. Spot on.

 

Add in one more, the type of bullet, FMJ, EFMJ, JHP, etc. all make a huge difference.

 

I dont recall what site, but they did ballistics tests, comparing all popular calibers, and all the magnum stuff, while it did have alot more "stopping power", it did not reach vital organs.

 

In my completely non scientific experiment.... when I was shooting with HuntingPaper at CJ, in a ghetto fashion (ie in a way to be able to use the ghetto nite sights), I shot the piece of 1x2 and a clamp. I was really surprised to see the fact that shooting at two pieces of wood, through a very thin aluminum sheet, the bullet failed to exit the 1x2 piece of wood 2 out of 3 times, out of a 40 cal.

[sirsloop 1]

... since when did we start talking about shot placement?

 

You shoot the perp with a .45 ACP in the eyeball. Dead.

I shoot the perp in with a .44 mag in the eyeball. Dead.

Maksim shoots the perp with a .22LR in the eyeball. Dead.

[Maksim 1,504]

Lets just agree.... the best thing you can do to knock down a BG is to stab him with the bayo on your 91/30, and then fire off a round of 7.62x54r perfection.

 

[sirsloop 1]

anyways... we are all wrong... most effective HD round is .357mag JHP. So... add that to the list.

[Maksim 1,504]

anyways... we are all wrong... most effective man stopper is .357mag JHP.

 

 

Stopping power. If the flash and shine of the gold tiger stripe doesnt stop them, the 300 grains of lead will.

[Shane45 807]

128 grn. Which is why all ammo manufacturers try and emulate its balistics. 357sig for example. 9X23 is another.

 

And to anser your question, I did on my first post in this thread on page two:

 

"Well.... the answer depends on which state you live in. This state punishes capacity so I prefer a .45. If I lived in a free mans state, I would carry a 9mm. My opinion is handguns are poor stoppers independant of caliber. This was proven out by the studies we did of actual cases on the Ammolab. Of far greater importance is shot placement. We have all seen the guy absorb 13 rounds of 45 and the three people that all died of a single .22. So with the chance of hitting a vital being the real end game, I want the most chances to win."

[Shane45 807]

maks, your call of duty is showing

[Maksim 1,504]

maks, your call of duty is showing

 

 

I dont play it. i just really really really like that piece of bling bling.

[Shane45 807]

I DO! I know everyones image of me is now shattered but I rock at COD

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Shot placement it critical, but when your adrenaline is pumping ide like to see you place one perfect round. I personally like having 15 chances

[Parker 213]

One more lesson for you sirsloop. Why has the military changed its 5.56 ammo? Why is there so many reports of BG's taking 4 or 5 hits with ball 5.56 and not going down? Why do I not have any of those same concerns with civy 5.56?

 

The ANSWER is energy transfer.....yet again. 5.56 that drills neat little holes through the target without transfering much energy to the target does little to stop the target. Civy 5.56 that literally explodes inside the target dumping almost 100% of its energy into the target is devastating to said target. I will check next week and see if any of the pictures I have from a military ammo test on actual flesh (not human) are confidential. If not I will post em up.

 

 

Edited to add on second though I will not. This is not the place for them......

 

It seems that with each conflict since the 5.56mm's inception in the U.S. military, it has been constantly improved to adapt for evolving battle situations and the arms.

 

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... ghanistan/

[sirsloop 1]

5.56mm FMJ was never intended on killing a person. A wounded man takes an additional 2-4 people out of the fight. The ammo is lighter so you can hump more. The Hague Convention bans JHP's and the like anyways. I don't see any hunters killing deer with FMJ's... even if it were legal I don't think anybody with half a brain would do it.

[Shane45 807]

"5.56mm FMJ was never intended on killing a person." Honestly thats just a plain silly statement. The wounding etc etc is an effect, not an intended cause. But more to the point, FMJ ammo the Military is restricted to use VS say TAP ammo that LE can use illustrates the difference when energy is expended in the target or not. Your statement about using FMJ to hunt being a bad idea means you get it so Im not sure which way your arguing at this point.....

 

Now to twist you up. Buffalo hunters for example DO indeed use solids because they NEED the penetration. So again, its the right caliber and bullet type for the mission at hand.

[Shane45 807]

Parker, IIRC the latest round to get adopted to help improve lethality/stopping power is Mk318 I believe.