Wearing a Holstered Gun on Property.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Ok, so I rent a house in Belmar. Some nutbag ex New Yorker must have bought the place next door. When I just went to the street to get the garbage cans he started flipping out on me because of the snow in his driveway. Like it was my fault. After I ask him "Who the f are you" He bugs out saying you wanna do this? You wanna do this? Throws his jacket off and has a shovel/ice breaker in his hands. Hard to describe it. Ice chipper? Comes at me. Now besides the fact that I am wearing sweat pants and flip flops I don't throw down with him. Not because I don't want to. Oh cuz I would love to. I think of my guns!!! I don't want to lose them over some bozo.

 

So I say to him.. "I'm just gonna call the cops" He tells me to callthe fing cops and blah blah blah. So I go inside and do so. Looks like he may be in a bit of trouble when I sign this complaint.

 

So my question is about the legality of wearing a holstered gun around my property to maybe have him think twice about starting some ****. He is the type that will. Loud New Yorker. Typical.

 

It is a rental house so I technically don't own it. Is that still ok?

[tony357 386]

It is a rental house so I technically don't own it. Is that still ok?

 

NO...

 

Ignor him and just dial 911.. i have had a few of them over the years including a retired nypd captian..This dude was rediculious took care of him when he swaped the plates from his ny car to his nj unregistered truck..but the badge got him out of that too.. funny how that works..but now he is buddy buddy..since he found out i knew half of our pd including local fish and game..

 

Edit.. cheap survalence systems are great witnesses..

[Babaganoosh 192]

Going to look at those in the near future.

 

I dunno, I have a lease so it wouldnt be any different then someone who owns/runs a store bringing a firearm and wearing it or storing it in their store. They might not own the actually brick and mortar store but they lease the building. From what I remember thats legal.

[Wojo 98]

If the leased property was also your place of business, you might be okay. But as a vacation home, NG. Think of how many NJ Beach Homes are unarmed? You have families with cash on vacation and yet they can't protect themselves. This state sucks so bad when it comes to the right of being able to defend yourself in a home (rented or owned).

[tony357 386]

Just do not think that would be a good idea, especialy with a history of hostility.. would not be good to brandish a gun after the fact..

[Babaganoosh 192]

If the leased property was also your place of business, you might be okay. But as a vacation home, NG. Think of how many NJ Beach Homes are unarmed? You have families with cash on vacation and yet they can't protect themselves. This state sucks so bad when it comes to the right of being able to defend yourself in a home (rented or owned).

 

 

My house is not a vacation home. Its my primary residence. I just happen to rent it, not own it. I am just guessing that his house is a summer home because nobody lives there year round. I could be wrong about that.I have never seen this guy before. My upstairs neighbor told me that an idiot with a NY accent started screaming at her the other day about snow as well. It's gotta be him.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Just do not think that would be a good idea, especialy with a history of hostility.. would not be good to brandish a gun after the fact..

 

 

Your probably right. I just really dont feel like coming home from work one day and finding my stuff messed up because of this guy. Just want him to think twice about being stupid. Since he already threw his jacket down and came at me once then he obviously has no problem trying to do something to me.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Is this a single family home you are renting? or a unit in a two family, three family, etc.?

 

The law does mention being allowed to carry on land possessed by you (in addition to in your home or place of business). If it's a two or three family home it my be hard to claim that the property is under your exclusive control.

 

That being said, I would still not recommened showing him a firearm, your asking for trouble, even if you may not be violating the law. He could falsely claim you pointed at him and threatened him, then your in for a lot of problems and expense.

[hopper 36]

I say let him swing at you , you fall down , call cops , ambulance and then a good LAWYER and sue the sh*t out of him !!!!!!!! hahahaha !!!

[vladtepes 1,060]

as pointed out I am pretty sure you can legally carry your gun on your property.. I would not "open carry" as it may be perceived as some form of intimidation since you have already had issues.. if you have a small light weight gun that could be concealed easily that is what I would carry.. concealed.. just know.. that if you are carrying concealed on your property and he gets in your face or attacks you.. now you have a very dangerous situation as you must not only focus on protecting yourself.. but you must additionally on retaining your weapon.. but the reality is even if you had a weapon.. outside.. I am not sure the law would even cover you if you did use it.. as I think most of our protection laws revolve around being IN the home.. not outside of it..

[DevsAdvocate 112]

If you do carry with a holster, DO NOT BRANDISH, POINT, or EXPOSE it until he is well on your property. Once he crosses that line, then you gotta start making tough choices.

[PDM 91]

I'm curious, why does anyone think you can't carry in a place you rent, even on vacation. Doesn't the statute allow possession (including on one'sn person) in your "residence, place of business and premises" (paraphrasing). If you rent it, doesn't it become your "premises" even if not the primary place you live? If not, what does "premises" mean since the statute already mentions "residence" and "place of business"?

[Babaganoosh 192]

Probably just throw up a security cam in the next few days.

 

Maybe ill just clean my shotgun on the front porch someday. Or make sure I throw away the large pieces of cardboard with the targets on them that are full of holes and shotgun blasts when he is outside.

 

I have been living here for years. This guys must have JUST bought the house next door because I have never seen him before and I was semi friendly with the old neighbors. NY plates on his van too. Typical loudmouth trash that comes down here and wonders why everybody hates them.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm curious, why does anyone think you can't carry in a place you rent, even on vacation. Doesn't the statute allow possession (including on one'sn person) in your "residence, place of business and premises" (paraphrasing). If you rent it, doesn't it become your "premises" even if not the primary place you live? If not, what does "premises" mean since the statute already mentions "residence" and "place of business"?

 

 

you can carry at the place you rent...

you can carry on your property (unless there are some strange laws I am not aware of.. and maybe even certain municipalities..)

 

but as far as I am aware... if someone represents a threat OUTSIDE your home.. you are not protected by the same laws that you are protected by IN the home... again just my understanding I may be wrong.. it is my understanding that if someone ENTERS your home (rented or owned) and presents a threat you can shoot them if you feel you are in immediate danger.. but outside? don't think the law protects you in the same way... so carrying a gun outside is not really going to help you..

 

if he sees the gun... he will claim you threatened him...

if you get in a physical fight you need to focus on retaining the weapon...

if you get attacked and USE the gun (outside) I am pretty sure you are in a world of trouble...

 

so in this situation.. carrying concealed outside might be ok.. providing you are prepared to deal with the worst... but I would just leave the gun inside given this specific situation..

[vladtepes 1,060]

NY plates on his van too. Typical loudmouth trash that comes down here and wonders why everybody hates them.

 

for me.. people like him add fuel to the moving fire.. I literally can not stand people like that...

[Babaganoosh 192]

You know what? It kinda sucks owning guns. Two years ago and I would have went at it with him. No doubt in my mind we would have been fighting. Sometimes getting older, wiser, and having more to lose isn't as fun.

[vladtepes 1,060]

You know what? It kinda sucks owning guns. Two years ago and I would have went at it with him. No doubt in my mind we would have been fighting. Sometimes getting older, wiser, and having more to lose isn't as fun.

 

I am not much for fighting over words.. and besides fighting with your neighbor is a recipe for disaster... especially if they act like a dbag... who knows.. slashed tires.. knocked over trash cans.. and so on.. living next to an immature child like that.. who has a grudge.. is only going to get more annoying.. I almost got into it with my exwife's boyfriend a few times because he could not get it through his head that I was over her.. but I just told him that I had everything to lose by fighting him, and he had nothing.. he had nothing to lose because he was trash.. getting locked up "one more time" was a non issue... but at the end of the day neither her OR him were worth tarnishing an otherwise spotless record.. now if he forced his way into my home or something.. that would change everything..

 

the days of being able to settle things through a 1 time get it out of your system fist fight are long gone.. get in a fist fight today and expect 10+ police cars.. charges being filed.. and so on...

 

not worth it at all..

[PDM 91]

you can carry at the place you rent...

you can carry on your property (unless there are some strange laws I am not aware of.. and maybe even certain municipalities..)

 

but as far as I am aware... if someone represents a threat OUTSIDE your home.. you are not protected by the same laws that you are protected by IN the home... again just my understanding I may be wrong.. it is my understanding that if someone ENTERS your home (rented or owned) and presents a threat you can shoot them if you feel you are in immediate danger.. but outside? don't think the law protects you in the same way... so carrying a gun outside is not really going to help you..

 

if he sees the gun... he will claim you threatened him...

if you get in a physical fight you need to focus on retaining the weapon...

if you get attacked and USE the gun (outside) I am pretty sure you are in a world of trouble...

 

so in this situation.. carrying concealed outside might be ok.. providing you are prepared to deal with the worst... but I would just leave the gun inside given this specific situation..

 

Ah, I see, your are drawing a distinction between inside and outside, not rented or owned. Vlad, I agree that, practically speaking, openly carrying your gun outdoors on your property (rented or owned) is a bad idea for the reasons you mentioned. However, under the statute I do think you might have an argument, assuming you don't get "Brian Aitkened" by the judge:

 

"Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm ..."

 

Thus, the statute mentions "premises or land" which I read to mean that you can carry outdoors on your property, and it need not be owned, it can be "possessed" (which, I would argue, can only mean rented in this context, otherwise the statute could and should simply only have said "owned.")

 

It all boils down to what legal risks you are willing to take, balanced against the perceived threat. Personally, I avoid all physical confrontation if at all possible, especially when carrying. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility and it should force you to swallow your pride when confronted and make every conceivable effort to walk or run away from a confrontation or a threat, up to the point where you truly believe your life or a loved one is in danger, in which case you have to make a stand.

[Babaganoosh 192]

 

 

the days of being able to settle things through a 1 time get it out of your system fist fight are long gone.. get in a fist fight today and expect 10+ police cars.. charges being filed.. and so on...

 

not worth it at all..

[/quote

 

No it isn't worth it. All of us gun owners here have spotless records. I made it 33 years that way, no sense in ruining it now. I used to like the 1 time fist fights though. A lot used to be settled that way. Nowadays its totally not worth it.

 

Yeah I am waiting for that **** to begin. Slashed tires, broken windows and whatever else.

 

It really isn't smart to start with your neighbors if you just bought a house that you are only going to be at occasionaly. I am here all the time and if I see someone messing around his property do you think I'm gonna even care now? Nope. I'll laugh as they cart off all his belongings.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ah, I see, your are drawing a distinction between inside and outside, not rented or owned. Vlad, I agree that, practically speaking, openly carrying your gun outdoors on your property (rented or owned) is a bad idea for the reasons you mentioned. However, under the statute I do think you might have an argument, assuming you don't get "Brian Aitkened" by the judge:

 

"Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm ..."

 

Thus, the statute mentions "premises or land" which I read to mean that you can carry outdoors on your property, and it need not be owned, it can be "possessed" (which, I would argue, can only mean rented in this context, otherwise the statute could and should simply only have said "owned.")

 

It all boils down to what legal risks you are willing to take, balanced against the perceived threat. Personally, I avoid all physical confrontation if at all possible, especially when carrying. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility and it should force you to swallow your pride when confronted and make every conceivable effort to walk or run away from a confrontation or a threat, up to the point where you truly believe your life or a loved one is in danger, in which case you have to make a stand.

 

oh no I agree.. as I stated I am pretty sure he can LEGALLY carry on his property (rented) but I am pretty sure that it will only escalate the situation...

 

he is NOT going to see the gun.. or targets.. or him cleaning his shotgun and care.. he is one of those obnoxious people who does not let things go.. so if he sees any of that kind of stuff I think he is only going to use it to get the OP in trouble.. especially since the OP plans to file a complaint.. now the neighbor will be looking for everything he possibly can to even the score..

 

so while I am pretty confident he could legally cut the lawn with an AR15 slung over his shoulder.. I am pretty sure given the situation it is not a good idea..

 

further.. I try to avoid advertising that I have guns in the home.. it only makes you more of a target for break ins and theft.. IMO of course..

[Malsua 1,422]

You need to avoid this person. I don't mean fear leaving the house, simply act as if this person doesn't exist. Don't openly carry on your property. The moment this dbag sees a gun, he'll call it in. He's looking for a fight for some reason, don't give him an excuse.

 

I'll also add that the NJ castle doctrine does not protect you if you provoke someone and they chase you into your home and you perforate them. Avoid confrontation, be the adult.

 

Definitely get some video if you can swing it. There are ways to make miserable people leave...constant anonymous calls to the cops for their misdeeds are among them.

[vladtepes 1,060]

He's looking for a fight for some reason,

 

just to clarify.. this is the reason..

 

ex New Yorker

 

[Babaganoosh 192]

I really don't even want to go thru the trouble of filing a complaint. But if, more like when he starts trying to do spiteful stuff I already want to have something on record to show I didn't start anything and that he is just trying to retaliate.

[Dan 177]

I agree. Nothing good will come of carrying a firearm in this situation, legal or not if the property is rented or owned. IF you really feel your life is in danger taking out the garbage, I can see why you would want to have something to protect yourself. After-all, that's one of the main pushes behind the right to carry movement.

 

Unfortunately, especially in NJ. You would probably be marked as the aggressor gun nut looking for a fight, and would have to prove otherwise. So its a decision you would have to weigh. Just know the law is not on your side. For instance, I understand in many cases you don't own or "posses" the land a few feet from the curb. So once you cross that imaginary boundary to push the garbage cans out, you are guilty of illegal possession.

 

As others posted put it, self defense laws outside the home differ. Regarding the use of deadly force, there is an obligation to retreat or surrender possessions with some exceptions:

 

2C:3-4

B The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

 

(i) The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest;

 

(ii) The actor has been unlawfully dispossessed of the property and is making a reentry or recaption justified by section 2C:3-6; or

 

(iii)� The actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm.

 

 

The cameras are the best idea, highly worth it. Its amazing how people's demeanor / attitude changes when they know they are being recorded. Plus it will help deter vandalism if this guy decides to start breaking windows or slashing tires.

 

I set up my and my neighbor's with multi-camera DVR systems. Let me know if you need any help choosing a system or any install questions.

 

Its been great to have. One of those things that is not missed until you really really need it some day, then its worth 100X the cost.

[e80hydro 120]

Liquid a**.

[fliks 20]

Vlad and Mark are totally right - don't start anything - leave your guns at home. This guy is just looking for an excuse to get at you. He may assume that NJ laws are as bad as NYC laws when it comes to guns (almost ) and call the cops complaining about it.

 

An affordable surveillance system is your best bet. It's a good thing to have anyway. Get one that you can take with you if you move somewhere else. It's a good investment and you have a good excuse for it

 

I know how those ex-New Yorkers are - I used to live there. I'm not arrogant or pushy, but I've seen enough of them while I was there.

take care - stay safe. and above all - stay sensible!

[PK90 3,570]

Carry for your protection, but be discreet.

[MrP 81]

Carry for your protection, but be discreet.

 

I agree. Carry if you feel the need to, but remember that the only reason you have the gun is to defend yourself from imminent physical danger. You aren't carrying to one-up the guy in a posturing (D*** measuring/pants hiking) contest. It seems stupid that a moronic neighbor should force you to invest money (however little) in a surveillance system, but it does seem like a solid choice. Ain't NJ great?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Carry for your protection, but be discreet.

 

if he hypothetically carries around a little pocket gun on his property.. and has to use it..

 

would it be more to his advantage to have filed a complaint.. or can he make like a statement about the incident without actually pressing charges.. again just illustrating that he wants to be left alone..

 

I mean just as like a matter of record..

 

I personally think that he along with many others like him.. is just filled with hot air.. and was looking for someone to blow up at.. would he fight if it came down to it.. yeah probably.. but it is likely IMO that he is just "being a tough guy"...

[vladtepes 1,060]

I agree. Carry if you feel the need to, but remember that the only reason you have the gun is to defend yourself from imminent physical danger. You aren't carrying to one-up the guy in a posturing (D*** measuring/pants hiking) contest. It seems stupid that a moronic neighbor should force you to invest money (however little) in a surveillance system, but it does seem like a solid choice. Ain't NJ great?

 

do you have a duty to retreat when you are on your property OUTSIDE your home? because that is the key as to if a gun is even worth having.. at the end of the day shooting some psycho VS getting bashed with a shovel.. is a pretty easy choice.. but how about legally?