Open Carry Phily Incident Charges Filed

[Duppie 73]

I personally have not encountered this on such a call but have on others.. We get called to fights, kids breakign windows, etc and have seen people walking down the street who were involved like nothing happened.. It's when they know that we know it was them that they try and run.. One of the smartest criminals are the ones that stay calm.. Because as you said, everyone is looking for a guy in a hood/mask running around waiving a gun.. Watch videos online of guys that walk into a bank like anyone else.. they go up to a teller, slip a note or exchange words, teller hands over whatever it is and the guy walks out.. its only when he is outside that he may run or get in a car and go..

 

I understand the whole "the cops should know the law" and most guys do.. But unfortuantely we dont always know who are bad guys and who are not.. You can look at a cop and know he is a cop.. but i can look at you with a gun on your hip and I dont know what your intentions are.. Do you have a license to carry? Did you just come out of the range and forget to take off your gun? Did you just murder your family and looking to take others along with them? I have no idea who you are or what your intentions are.. The only thing I can do is gain the upper hand (drawing gun) until I determine who you are and what your intentions are.. Again.. I know there are some civilians that can carry but I don't know who they are.. So until I can SAFELY determine if you can carry a gun I will do all that I have to to make sure I go home at the end of the day.. What some are asking is that I have a normal conversation with a guy with a gun to see if he is licensed to carry and if he decided to try and kill me I should just try and see what my chances are in a drawing contest..

 

Look I truly believe that cops in some respect fight an up hill battle both against crime and public opinion and I for one haven't got a clue just what a LEO in a crime ridden urban environment has to deal with every day but even you have to admit that this incident could have been handled and defused more effectively but a police man with not only a better understanding of the law but a better understanding of human nature. This, in my mind was a clear case of a citizen exploring the boundaries of his rights and the law.... The LEO failed on both counts to uphold both and in the process only diminished the worth and respect of the dept.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

Someone just opened a can of worms...

 

Sorry buddy, but i do not have to obey a police officers demands when i am doing nothing illegal. Police officers cannot detain a person who is legally doing nothing wrong. Typical do what i say mentality... not good..not good. Is this really what there teaching u guys at the academy?

[FearThisInc 35]

Look I truly believe that cops in some respect fight an up hill battle both against crime and public opinion and I for one haven't got a clue just what a LEO in a crime ridden urban environment has to deal with every day but even you have to admit that this incident could have been handled and defused more effectively but a police man with not only a better understanding of the law but a better understanding of human nature. This, in my mind was a clear case of a citizen exploring the boundaries of his rights and the law.... The LEO failed on both counts to uphold both and in the process only diminished the worth and respect of the dept.

 

 

You just have to look at if from all perspectives.. You can look at it in hundreds of ways and make it sound right.. We as cops have a lot to deal with and never know what may happen on any given day and honestly I think people forget that.. Let's look at the case where a group of officers were just having their breakfast when they were all shot by someone just walking into the store with a gun.. As I stated before.. We don't always know who the bad guys are.. So you know what.. Give us a break.. We are just doing our jobs and trying to ensure safety to the public.. You want to cry that we had no right to stop you but lets look at the same incident.. Civilian walks into the store and the officer sees him carrying a gun.. Doesnt say anything to the guy and walks away.. "hey its the law that people can carry".. Civilian sees the officer leaves and shoots the clerk and 2 shoppers.. Media releases a tape of the shooter walking into the store with gun out in the open and officer just walks by and doesnt do anything.. Everyone would be jumping down the throat of the officer and looking to sue the department and city.. so for a lot of us its a lose lose world out there.. We are damned if we do and damned if we dont.. People cry that cops don't do anything.. That we just drive around and dont do any work.. The cops go out and start cracking down.. Issuing motor vehicle violations issuing township summons', etc.. The same people now cry that the cops are targeting civilians and writing tickets to just make money.. But in my job description it says to enforce motor vehicle violations.. So you are right.. it is an uphill battle.. Which is a why a lot of guys on the job now ask the question.. Why do I bother..

[FearThisInc 35]

Someone just opened a can of worms...

 

Sorry buddy, but i do not have to obey a police officers demands when i am doing nothing illegal. Police officers cannot detain a person who is legally doing nothing wrong. Typical do what i say mentality... not good..not good. Is this really what there teaching u guys at the academy?

 

If I begin to conduct a formal investigation you must follow orders.. I am not saying you have to obey if an officer tells you to kill someone or do something illegal.. But if an officer is conducting a formal investigation and you decide to say F%^k off you just obstructed a governmental function.. But again this all stems from the actual incident taking place.. Can the situation been handled better.. yes.. but was it totally out of proportion.. no..

[mrjam2jab 9]

 

As for the above comment neither of us were in the store so we cannot articulate what the Officer's perspective was of the situation or the exact stance everyone was in.. How do we know the cashier did not give the Officer a "look" as to make the Officer aware that the civilian had a gun on his hip.. There are a lot of unknowns in the situation.. You have to remember that as you said.. Open carry may not justify probable cause.. but the civilians actions himself may have raised suspicion.. or maybe the cashier made eye contact with the Officer which raised suspicion.. or maybe ti was a fellow shopper that noticed it.. there are a lot of variables unknown here..

 

 

 

 

He was walking down the street...on his way to the store.

[axeman_g 128]

Jack... the "Typical do what i say mentality..." is being taught at the academies because in the end every LEO wants to go home at the end of their shift, no captain wants to go visit a newly made widow or console a child whose father or mothers is not coming home.

 

I sometimes feel as is you all, my brothers in the 2a fight sometimes forget a little bit that we are talking about dangerous weapons here. Yes, in theory a man walking down the street with a holstered weapon does and should have the right to pass peaceablly, just like the man walking to the hardware store to get his axe sharpened. But there is always going to be more scutiny on the OC individual then the axe carrying potentail zombie. Because 50+% of the citizens of this country are scared of handguns. Why, because the government and media has trained them to be that way. But that is the way it is, until we get to a point where everyone is comfortable with open carry of handguns. Our rights were erased by the criminals in our forefathers times... NY was one of the most free wheeling gun cities of all time, until they passed the laws to remove guns from criminals hands... little did the city leaders at the time (one of my personal favorites Teddy Roosevelt was involved) realize what they were doing, laying the groundwork for modern days gun prohibition. How about Wyatt Earp and Tombstone... no open or concealed carry there. Even for lawful citizens. It is going to be a hard fight to educate 50% of the country, and one way to insure it fails is to piss off the students.

[Zed's_Dead 16]

Someone just opened a can of worms...

 

Sorry buddy, but i do not have to obey a police officers demands when i am doing nothing illegal. Police officers cannot detain a person who is legally doing nothing wrong. Typical do what i say mentality... not good..not good. Is this really what there teaching u guys at the academy?

 

Really? So if someone calls the cops and describes a white man with a gun wearing a red Phillies hoodie that just robbed a store the police can't stop any white male with a red Phillies hoodie in the area to detain him long enough to determine if he's the suspect?

 

In the word or Pizza Bob, FAIL.

[Dan 177]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

 

IMO, the cop in this situation is 100% in the wrong. It is akin to walking up to anyone on the street, drawing down on them and ordering them to the ground for no reason at all. The fact that he had a holstered gun does not give the cop authority to do this. The only authority the cop had was to temporarily detain and ask to see his LTCF. There is a fine line between that and harassment. In this situation the cops pushed the fine line away and took a leaping bound into abuse of authority and harassment of someone going about their peaceable legal business.

 

Its OK to ask to see a LTCF, not OK to treat the guy like a dbag, screaming profanities, threatening death, aiming guns, etc. If the cop is going to be afraid of every OCing civilian they see and reacting this way, time for a new job as they are unfit for the job. They can always move to NJ, lol.

 

I know its alien for NJ people to see civilians legally carrying guns. It is so ingrained into our population that guns=bad guys. I can tell you when I travel to other states, and I see multiple armed civilians in a restaurant or other public place, I actually feel safer.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Really? So if someone calls the cops and describes a white man with a gun wearing a red Phillies hoodie that just robbed a store the police can't stop any white male with a red Phillies hoodie in the area to detain him long enough to determine if he's the suspect?

 

In the word or Pizza Bob, FAIL.

Is this what happend? were they specifically looking for a criminal on the run? a crime must be committed for a formal investigation to take place.... You cannot open up an formal investigation if no crime has been committed. If a formal investigation is already in place and you look like a suspect that is a totally different story, but this is way far from that scenario.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

If I begin to conduct a formal investigation you must follow orders.. I am not saying you have to obey if an officer tells you to kill someone or do something illegal.. But if an officer is conducting a formal investigation and you decide to say F%^k off you just obstructed a governmental function.. But again this all stems from the actual incident taking place.. Can the situation been handled better.. yes.. but was it totally out of proportion.. no..

Like stated before, what gives you the right to conduct a formal investigation upon a law abiding citizen? Your basically saying that you have the right to stop and detain anyone not breaking the law?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Personally I feel that the Philly police is in the wrong. Sure the cop could have shot the guy (which would have been even worse), and yes, the open carrier could have acted nicer. Still - even if he had complied like the cop had asked him to, he would have already been treated like a criminal.

 

Ignorance of the law (by law enforcement officials) is no excuse. This guy's main beef is that he knows he was following the law, and yet he was being treated like a criminal because the cop was ignorant of it.

 

The article even stated that the Philly PD was saying "oh we've taken steps AFTER THE FACT to train and inform everyone properly." Too little, too late.

[NJ609 22]

Really? So if someone calls the cops and describes a white man with a gun wearing a red Phillies hoodie that just robbed a store the police can't stop any white male with a red Phillies hoodie in the area to detain him long enough to determine if he's the suspect?

 

In the word or Pizza Bob, FAIL.

 

I don't think he was implying what you describe. Of course there are legit and reasonable cases where it's the duty of the officer to stop and question a citizen. Any real citizen would at least begrudgingly comply if it was truly legit.

 

Where people get pissed off is when there is no legit reason and it's either a power trip or because there's total ignorance of the law from someone who is supposed to uphold it.

 

Now in this case he should know the law. With all the trouble Philly has had on issues like this, shame on it's leadership for not doing a better job of making sure their officers are educated in the firearms laws of the state.

 

However I think everyone needs to realize how it's probably impossible for any police officer to remember all the laws on the books, God himself probably couldn't do that anymore.

 

But ignorance is not a pass, and as usual the Philly PD screwed up and now it's a big sh*t show.

 

And remember, you can be supportive of LE and respect them, but that doesn't mean I would stick up for these bozo's. Just like in any other line of work the uninformed or untrained cops make the good ones look tarnished and that's just a damn shame.

[Babaganoosh 192]

 

 

I know its alien for NJ people to see civilians legally carrying guns. It is so ingrained into our population that guns=bad guys.

 

This is where a lot of our problems as gun owners come from.

[FearThisInc 35]

As I stated numerous times.. We can monday morning quaterback all day but until I see a video of what went down I don't think anyone can claim who was right and who was wrong.. You say the guy was just walking down the street on his merry way.. How he was walking and how he was acting can change everything.. Does he have his hand on his gun in a manner where it appears he may be ready to draw?? Is he walking in an aggressive manner? What are the surroundings likes.. Too many things can change the situation.. As stated.. In this state if I was the cop I would probably just do a behind the leg draw and ask to see paperwork and see where it goes from there.. but as stated.. This is not an open carry friendly state.. As stated earlier.. Had this been a state where open carry is a regular occurrence then maybe it would be different.. But I stand behind my view on this.. I would rather check the guy out for the public safety then do nothing have a chance this was a criminal..

[kenw 293]

...

However I think everyone needs to realize how it's probably impossible for any police officer to remember all the laws on the books, God himself probably couldn't do that anymore.

 

But ignorance is not a pass, and as usual the Philly PD screwed up and now it's a big sh*t show.

 

I disagree.

 

This isn't some obscure law like "no bowling on Sunday" or some statute that is loosely written enough to be subject to interpretation. This is a matter of fact. It is legal for a LTCF holder to openly carry a holstered weapon within the state of Pennsylvania. Seems fairly simple, and the fact that the ignorance of such a simple and straightforward law could easily lead to a tragic and disastrous mistake should make it imperative that LE be aware of it, and be prepared to protect anyone legally exercising their rights to do so.

 

There may be many laws, but this one is an easy one to stay on top of.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I'm also tired of hearing that LEO's act this way because of stresses related to the job. Were they somehow unaware of the dangers that inherently comes with being a police officer? You picked the profession, you should live with it, why i and others have to deal with your SH8tty attitude is beyond me.

 

I know plenty of guys on the force who can put on there game face without sacrificing the rights of others. It's just easier to blatantly disregard peoples rights in the name of your safety.

 

With that said, every encounter i have had with LEO's takes into consideration that i do everything i can to make them feel comfortable and not threatened, but i still reserve my rights.

This isn't directed at your fear, but you should understand that people are much more friendly and cooperative when they are not being threatened by LEO's just like you dont enjoy being threatened by others.

 

If the officer approached the man and said, Hi good day sir, i see you have an holster weapon, it is you right to carry, do you have a permit do so?

Reply... yes i do.

Can i see you permit?

he can answer yes or no, and will probably comply since the officer understand his right and is being friendly.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

As I stated numerous times.. We can monday morning quaterback all day but until I see a video of what went down I don't think anyone can claim who was right and who was wrong.. You say the guy was just walking down the street on his merry way.. How he was walking and how he was acting can change everything.. Does he have his hand on his gun in a manner where it appears he may be ready to draw?? Is he walking in an aggressive manner? What are the surroundings likes.. Too many things can change the situation.. As stated.. In this state if I was the cop I would probably just do a behind the leg draw and ask to see paperwork and see where it goes from there.. but as stated.. This is not an open carry friendly state.. As stated earlier.. Had this been a state where open carry is a regular occurrence then maybe it would be different.. But I stand behind my view on this.. I would rather check the guy out for the public safety then do nothing have a chance this was a criminal..

FYI, criminals tend to hide there illegal weapons...

Have you listened to the tape?

The fact still remains that you have ZERO grounds to check anything...No matter how much you dislike the way the guy walks talks and acts. YOu ever hear the word profiling? how its illegal? Becuase i look like a criminal.. i am in your eyes a criminal until prove otherwise? How a** backwards is this?

[NJ609 22]

As I stated numerous times.. We can monday morning quaterback all day but until I see a video of what went down I don't think anyone can claim who was right and who was wrong.. You say the guy was just walking down the street on his merry way.. How he was walking and how he was acting can change everything.. Does he have his hand on his gun in a manner where it appears he may be ready to draw?? Is he walking in an aggressive manner? What are the surroundings likes.. Too many things can change the situation.. As stated.. In this state if I was the cop I would probably just do a behind the leg draw and ask to see paperwork and see where it goes from there.. but as stated.. This is not an open carry friendly state.. As stated earlier.. Had this been a state where open carry is a regular occurrence then maybe it would be different.. But I stand behind my view on this.. I would rather check the guy out for the public safety then do nothing have a chance this was a criminal..

 

You are still looking at it from an NJ perspective. PA has many parts that are not unfriendly to OC. Philly has always fought the rest of the state on the firearms laws and makes a habit of ignoring them. The state has had to pass additional laws to force compliance in fact.

 

There is a rich history of ignoring citizens rights as according to the state of PA inside of Philadelphia. Hell they admitted they hadn't properly trained their officers to deal with this kind of situation. City of 1 million in a state with OC laws and they didn't review this little detail? Wow. Go team.

 

I disagree.

 

This isn't some obscure law like "no bowling on Sunday" or some statute that is loosely written enough to be subject to interpretation. This is a matter of fact. It is legal for a LTCF holder to openly carry a holstered weapon within the state of Pennsylvania. Seems fairly simple, and the fact that the ignorance of such a simple and straightforward law could easily lead to a tragic and disastrous mistake should make it imperative that LE be aware of it, and be prepared to protect anyone legally exercising their rights to do so.

 

There may be many laws, but this one is an easy one to stay on top of.

 

Ken, I actually agree with you about this. I just stated that for anyone who's going to say "BUT THERE ARE SO MANY LAWS TO REMEMBER WHAAAAAAA". In this case, with PPD's history, it's unacceptable that they wouldn't know this type of very important law. It almost cost someone doing nothing illegal their life!

[Zed's_Dead 16]

Is this what happend? were they specifically looking for a criminal on the run? a crime must be committed for a formal investigation to take place.... You cannot open up an formal investigation if no crime has been committed. If a formal investigation is already in place and you look like a suspect that is a totally different story, but this is way far from that scenario.

 

I was answering your very general statement that law abiding folk do not have to obey the orders of a police officer if they are not doing anything wrong. That's simply not the case. If, say in this instance in particular, you want to say you can disobey the lawful order of a police officer, that's one thing. But a general statement like originally made is clearly inaccurate.

 

And again, for those of us who are not police officers, you have to remember that they are working in the real world. Not some hypothetical Utopia where we can all carry our guns and no crime is ever committed. In a place like Philadelphia, where gun crime is rampant, can you really expect a police officer not to at least question someone who is open carrying? If I was a savvy criminal that just read this article I'd just start open carrying now to avoid any suspicion.

 

I read article in the Philadelphia Daily News and the PD has reacted to this incident by providing a refresher course for lack of a better word to its members on the open carry laws. Additionally, the official spokesman, a Lt. Healy I believe, said that this was not an appropriate way to conduct a stop in this situation.

 

 

I also think the criminal case gets dismissed...maybe with this publicity even before it goes any further.

[Duppie 73]

As I stated numerous times.. We can monday morning quaterback all day but until I see a video of what went down I don't think anyone can claim who was right and who was wrong.. You say the guy was just walking down the street on his merry way.. How he was walking and how he was acting can change everything.. Does he have his hand on his gun in a manner where it appears he may be ready to draw?? Is he walking in an aggressive manner? What are the surroundings likes.. Too many things can change the situation.. As stated.. In this state if I was the cop I would probably just do a behind the leg draw and ask to see paperwork and see where it goes from there.. but as stated.. This is not an open carry friendly state.. As stated earlier.. Had this been a state where open carry is a regular occurrence then maybe it would be different.. But I stand behind my view on this.. I would rather check the guy out for the public safety then do nothing have a chance this was a criminal..

I don't so much have an issue with the officer checking him out but do however have a serious problem with the way it was done... Yo Junior? I too have traveled extensively to carry states and while I have not seen a LEO question a OC, I venture there are less accusatory procedures taught in order for the authorities to fulfill their sword duties without violating a lawful citizen's rights. Bring up you tube and you will see several examples of LEOs doing just that with everyone walking away satisfied that no laws or rights were violated.

[Vlad G 345]

FearThisInc, it is a sad day when your perspective differs so wildly from the every day civilians you are sworn to protect. Reading your comments alone makes me grind my teeth and I like and support cops. The attitude that "orders must be obeyed" is exactly what leads the ever growing rift between police and everyone else. The fact that every discussion about interactions between police and the rest of the population comes down to "us vs them" reminds of growing up in a communist country. When the police lose the support of every day people on the street, it is time for the police to re-evaluate how they conduct themselves or things will only get worse and worse with officers assuming everyone is a threat and being increasingly combative and the people on the street being increasingly suspicious of officers and even less likely to be any kind of helpful.

 

Is that a community you want to police? Would you want to live in a community policed that way if you weren't in law enforcement? I've been there, I know where this ends, and it isn't pretty. I don't want to be there again. Take this as a plea for looking at this kind of situation from the perspective of average Joe. I understand that in your line of work you have to be ready to deal with a criminal that may seem like a normal person, but when you jump to mindset that everyone is a potential criminal we ALL lose.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I was answering your very general statement that law abiding folk do not have to obey the orders of a police officer if they are not doing anything wrong. That's simply not the case. If, say in this instance in particular, you want to say you can disobey the lawful order of a police officer, that's one thing. But a general statement like originally made is clearly inaccurate.

 

 

I'm interested to see where it is stated that if an LEO gives me an order i have to follow it... maybe my statement was a bit general. A Lawful order may be a grey area, im not sure... I know a person with a permit to carry is not obligated to show it, no matter how many times an officer demands to see it. You could construe many different things from a lawful order, and what separates it from harassment? The word here is lawful order.... not an order given by a police officer, They can give lawful orders, but every order may not be lawful.

[SpecialK 193]

I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

So basically you are for making your job easier and less dangerous over the people's rights?

 

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story..

 

 

So to exercise my rights I have to be willing to drop to my knees for the government on a whim? This just lines perfectly up with your train of thought here. We are lesser people, that cannot be trusted. "Kneel before me you lowly citizen of the United State of America for I am the Government!!!"

 

no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time..

 

that's funny because I never had this issue even once when I open carried in Colorado and Arizona in the past. And yes I passed by cops and they just smiled and waved.

 

what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea..

 

One that takes their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution seriously, you know, a good one.

[kenw 293]

I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

I have no intention of bashing you for this. I'm just curious as to why. For civilians, it's mostly a fear of guns, and a lack of a firearms and shooting culture and tradition that puts them in the anti's camp, but I could never understand why a cop, who understands guns as a defensive tool, and who knows that they can't be everywhere to protect everyone, would be against responsible civilian carry.

 

If you have no objection explaining (not defending) your position and reasoning on this, I'd love to hear it.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Honestly - from my practice, training and "gaming", I would probably be more likely to hit what i'm shooting at as a civilian than a cop who barely touches their gun except to qualify

[Duppie 73]

I have no intention of bashing you for this. I'm just curious as to why. For civilians, it's mostly a fear of guns, and a lack of a firearms and shooting culture and tradition that puts them in the anti's camp, but I could never understand why a cop, who understands guns as a defensive tool, and who knows that they can't be everywhere to protect everyone, would be against responsible civilian carry.

 

If you have no objection explaining (not defending) your position and reasoning on this, I'd love to hear it.

As would I.

[NorthernYankee 94]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

 

I am not going to rehash everything that has been said by the others. I try to be nice to every cop that I encounter, usually its because I have done something wrong already(Speeding, running red light etc.).

 

But in this instance the OC'er had done nothing wrong, If the officer had approached him and been calmer and a bit more polite with his hand on his weapon instead of having it drawn I feel this would have turned out differently.

 

Also you state "but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian". So are you saying that only the government should have weapons in public? I believe our founding fathers wrote the 2A for just this reason. Police are supposed to uphold the law not their idea of the law.

[bbk 188]

I do believe that it is the responsibility of the individual, who is competent, to be the one first and foremost responsible for their own safety and well being. Because a person carries (OC or concealed) does not mean they are "the law," nor should they even think that way. Because a person carries does not mean they will necessarily even resort to using their firearm in a hostile situation (deadly force is a last resort). I think what really hurts the image of carrying a gun is the whole "cowboy" mentality that fear and ignorance paints.

 

Now, I do understand where the LEOs might be coming from, as they don't necessarily know if a person is competent or not. Or if they are legally carrying. The proper term being that there are added variables to a possible situation occurring. However, its not a war zone in our streets (in most places). And I think the mentality of disarming fellow citizens in a hostile manner is overstepping the boundary. I'm not a LEO basher at all, I think that is well established on these forums and in person. But I do think this is a text book reason of why there is a rift between LEO and civilian.

[PeteF 1,044]

Really? So if someone calls the cops and describes a white man with a gun wearing a red Phillies hoodie that just robbed a store the police can't stop any white male with a red Phillies hoodie in the area to detain him long enough to determine if he's the suspect?

 

In the word or Pizza Bob, FAIL.

 

 

If as you said there was a complaint and a description, THEN the cop has a reasonable suspicion and things go differently.

 

That's not what happened here. Man walking down the street with gun on hip seen by cop, has cop's gun pointed at him and has his life threatened. This particular group of cops were way out of line. Even the Philly PD's lawyer told the reporter the cops had not been trained (WTF?)

[LorenzoS 100]

If someone reports a store was robbed by a man in green pants and red shirt, then police can stop a man in green pants and red shirt. Someone committed a crime and there is specific reason to believe this might be the individual.

 

If someone reports a black man walking around a nice neighborhood, then NO they can't stop him. No crime was committed, the guy is doing nothing wrong, and you can't stop a man just because you think a black man must be up to no good.

 

Similarly, if someone is engaging in a 100% legal activity, then there is BY DEFINITION nothing wrong, and no valid reason to stop him. Sure the police officer's job will be much easier with the ability to stop and investigate anyone at any time - in fact our society would be much safer that way. China and Iran find great success with this strategy. Thankfully we still do have something called a Bill of Rights that prevents that type of thing here.