CCW holder shoots robber, charged with murder

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Like I said earlier, I hope the media got the right story when it was initially posted, now who knows what to believe.

 

I'm now starting to think the shooter and robber might know each other and this might be a dispute between them, especially with the report of a woman also in the argument.

 

I think I saw a CSI episode similar to this..

 

Harry

This occurred in West Virginia

Both robber and victim were probably related to each other!

[Anselmo 87]

It doesn't. Cops investigate crimes, make arrests, collect evidence, and basically enforce laws that are on the books. They have certain legal powers that allow them to do those things.

 

If someone robs me, and turns his back on me, and I can stop him (with a gun), then by all means, why shouldn't I do it?

1. I get my stuff back

2. This twerp is either gonna be dead, or he's gonna learn a lesson about messing with people

 

3. you go to jail. Good reason not to do it.

[TheMan 45]

It doesn't. Cops investigate crimes, make arrests, collect evidence, and basically enforce laws that are on the books. They have certain legal powers that allow them to do those things.

 

If someone robs me, and turns his back on me, and I can stop him (with a gun), then by all means, why shouldn't I do it?

1. I get my stuff back

2. This twerp is either gonna be dead, or he's gonna learn a lesson about messing with people

 

-If a guy comes up to you brandishing a knife and the tells you to give up your hard earned cash, then quickly pull out your firearm and let him have it before he can run away. If The guy takes your loot then runs away, then he is no longer posing a threat to you. You dont want to go to jail over a scumbag. Bottomline once they no longer pose a threat, then your gunna catch that murder charge.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

3. you go to jail. Good reason not to do it.

 

That's a fault of our supposed 'Justice System', not me. We've become a civilization which coddles and rewards criminals, and ultimately punishes those who are acting righteously.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

-If a guy comes up to you brandishing a knife and the tells you to give up your hard earned cash, then quickly pull out your firearm and let him have it before he can run away. If The guy takes your loot then runs away, then he is no longer posing a threat to you. You dont want to go to jail over a scumbag. Bottomline once they no longer pose a threat, then your gunna catch that murder charge.

 

Why? This guy just threatened to kill me for my money, so why should I let him go to possibly hurt or kill someone else (or come after me again with better knowledge)? Sure... I can call 911, or I can just shoot him. The only difference here is timing. If I shoot him fast enough, it's okay. Right?

 

There is also a bit of evolution of the criminal element here... these guys don't last long on the street if they don't learn their lessons. If I let him run, he may decide to just kill the next person outright in case they have a gun. Or maybe he'll just wait for me again, with reinforcements... Best not give him a chance.

[Jon 264]

That's a fault of our supposed 'Justice System', not me. We've become a civilization which coddles and rewards criminals, and ultimately punishes those who are acting righteously.

 

Fine. Shoot him. You can deal with the legal bills and incarceration. Me? I'm going to use deadly force only in the event that deadly force is threatened against myself or loved ones.

 

I am concerned about how you seem to have a desire to shoot someone...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

It doesn't. Cops investigate crimes, make arrests, collect evidence, and basically enforce laws that are on the books. They have certain legal powers that allow them to do those things.

 

If someone robs me, and turns his back on me, and I can stop him (with a gun), then by all means, why shouldn't I do it?

1. I get my stuff back

2. This twerp is either gonna be dead, or he's gonna learn a lesson about messing with people

 

That's not the point of CCW. What you describe is vigilanteism, vengeance, and a total disregard for human life.

 

CCW is to protect your life and lives of others. If a robber is fleeing, the threat to your life has most likely ended (unless of course he's pointing a weapon in your general direction or will potentially be threatening others). Most likely he is trying to get away from you and the police.

 

If the robber was threatening you with a weapon, why would you wait until they're running away to engage them?

 

If someone was running down a street, and grabs a lady's purse and runs away, would you shoot them in the back? Sounds like your answer is yes. Well then, what if they were a friend of the lady and just playing a prank on her?

 

Think about it.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

That's a fault of our supposed 'Justice System', not me. We've become a civilization which coddles and rewards criminals, and ultimately punishes those who are acting righteously.

 

While the justice system does have it's flaws, it's the system we have to live by. Now if I am carrying and get robbed I will defend myself and take down the robber if it's my last resort, but if something happens and I can't do that while they are a threat and they start to run away, they are no longer a threat and I don't care what they took from me, it's not worth me throwing my life away to teach someone a lesson.

 

Harry

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

If someone robs me, and turns his back on me, and I can stop him (with a gun), then by all means, why shouldn't I do it?

 

 

Let me know how that works out for you.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Fine. Shoot him. You can deal with the legal bills and incarceration. Me? I'm going to use deadly force only in the event that deadly force is threatened against myself or loved ones.

 

I am concerned about how you seem to have a desire to shoot someone...

 

I don't have a desire to shoot anyone, just those who wish to cause me and others harm. What I don't get is the willingness to let someone go after they threatened you. What's the deterrent to stop it from happening again? And again?

 

I get that society has established certain legal restrictions on hurting criminals, and have brainwashed folks into thinking that their hard earned property is "not worth another persons life", or that the criminal committing it is merely "down on his luck" and really isn't to blame. But that's a flawed thinking which ultimately empowers those who mean to prey on the weak, while hamstringing those who have the power to stop them.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Let me know how that works out for you.

 

Probably not well at all given the current legal climate. I'm not a fool to think such an act would be vindicated by the legal system (at least in NJ).

 

What I'm trying to figure out here is: why? Why is it wrong to shoot someone who committed a crime? Why is a robber, a rapist, or a burglar protected the second they turn their back against you to run away? I get that the legal system has it's flawed rules, but I'm trying to get down to the baser issues at hand.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

While the justice system does have it's flaws, it's the system we have to live by. Now if I am carrying and get robbed I will defend myself and take down the robber if it's my last resort, but if something happens and I can't do that while they are a threat and they start to run away, they are no longer a threat and I don't care what they took from me, it's not worth me throwing my life away to teach someone a lesson.

 

Harry

 

Agreed and understood.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is why it's wrong to shoot someone in the back after they committed a harm against you. Why is it ok to shoot them when they're facing you, but not when they're running away?

[TheMan 45]

Why? This guy just threatened to kill me for my money, so why should I let him go to possibly hurt or kill someone else (or come after me again with better knowledge)? Sure... I can call 911, or I can just shoot him. The only difference here is timing. If I shoot him fast enough, it's okay. Right?

 

There is also a bit of evolution of the criminal element here... these guys don't last long on the street if they don't learn their lessons. If I let him run, he may decide to just kill the next person outright in case they have a gun. Or maybe he'll just wait for me again, with reinforcements... Best not give him a chance.

Bro i agree with what your saying, but as far as him "possibly" killing another person, I believe by law you can use deadly force to protect the life of another, but until he tries to harm someone else; let the cops handle it. Clearly in the CCW application you are warned that you are not law enforcement and dont try to act as such. Honestly i feel the same way you do, scum will always be scum and id rather see them get 6ft than 6 years for robbery. Your freedom is most important.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

If I am carrying and a guy pulls a knife on me to Rob me, he's not getting the chance to flee. He gets lead instead of cash.

[diamondd817 827]

Agreed and understood.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is why it's wrong to shoot someone in the back after they committed a harm against you. Why is it ok to shoot them when they're facing you, but not when they're running away?

 

Because once they turn their backs and run away they are no longer an immediate threat to your life and you are able to safetly retreat. At that point it is wise to let law enforcement handle it.

 

What do you mean by harm? You got your money robbed and were not physically injured? Or do you mean you got robbed and stabbed in the chest with a knife?

 

I believe if you got stabbed or shot and returned fire as the thug turned around and started running you would be justified.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

If I am carrying and a guy pulls a knife on me to Rob me, he's not getting the chance to flee. He gets lead instead of cash.

 

I'd do the same. However, be wary of knife users: bringing a gun to a knife fight isn't always a guaranteed win. If he has his knife out, he can close distance and hurt you before you will have a chance to get your gun out of the holster. Obviously this is dependent on how close the threat is, but it's something to take note of.

[diamondd817 827]

If I am carrying and a guy pulls a knife on me to Rob me, he's not getting the chance to flee. He gets lead instead of cash.

 

Guy squares up with you, pulls out his knife, you pull out your gun, you win. It's not always that straight forward. What would you do if someone came up behind you and put a knife to your throat? Reach for your gun?

 

I'm not breaking balls, really looking for an answer.

[Jon 264]

Guy squares up with you, pulls out his knife, you pull out your gun, you win. It's not always that straight forward. What would you do if someone came up behind you and put a knife to your throat? Reach for your gun?

 

I'm not breaking balls, really looking for an answer.

 

This is why it's best to learn some form of martial art in addition to having weapons training.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Guy squares up with you, pulls out his knife, you pull out your gun, you win. It's not always that straight forward. What would you do if someone came up behind you and put a knife to your throat? Reach for your gun?

 

I'm not breaking balls, really looking for an answer.

 

Do whatever I can to get some distance between me and the scumbag.

 

Depends on several factors but if they make me reach for my wallet, guess what's coming out instead?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Guy squares up with you, pulls out his knife, you pull out your gun, you win. It's not always that straight forward. What would you do if someone came up behind you and put a knife to your throat? Reach for your gun?

 

I'm not breaking balls, really looking for an answer.

 

Very good point, I was driving home stopped at a light in Elizabeth a few miles south of the airport, it was a hot summer night about 0200 and I had the windows down in by T-bird. Well i was the only car at the light and didn't see a single person around me but in a split second I had an arm in my drivers side window and a knife against my throat with another guy at the other side of the car with a bat. Even if I had a gun I had not a chance to draw it and do anything, I was at the mercy of what ever the 2 guys wanted to do. Not going to go into what happened next but I did get out of there with noting taken but it was all luck and maybe a lot of adrenaline but an glad to be able to tell about it.

 

Sometimes there are no or very few options and each and situation will be different.

 

Harry

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Very good point, I was driving home stopped at a light in Elizabeth a few miles south of the airport, it was a hot summer night about 0200 and I had the windows down in by T-bird. Well i was the only car at the light and didn't see a single person around me but in a split second I had an arm in my drivers side window and a knife against my throat with another guy at the other side of the car with a bat. Even if I had a gun I had not a chance to draw it and do anything, I was at the mercy of what ever the 2 guys wanted to do. Not going to go into what happened next but I did get out of there with noting taken but it was all luck and maybe a lot of adrenaline but an glad to be able to tell about it.

 

Sometimes there are no or very few options and each and situation will be different.

 

Harry

 

Gas pedal was ur friend in that situation

[Zell959 40]

Why is it ok to shoot them when they're facing you, but not when they're running away?

 

The difference is a bit more nuanced than that IMO. It's the difference between being a threat & not being a threat:

 

Robbed you at knifepoint & running away into an open field with his back to you = No longer a threat

 

Robbed you at knifepoint & running in the direction of your wife with his back to you = Still a threat

 

Walking away unarmed & with back to you, but is inside your house = Still a threat

 

Holding a knife & facing you and demanding your wallet, but doing so from the other side of a collapsed bridge = Not a threat [and, admittedly, a little absurd]

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Gas pedal was ur friend in that situation

 

With a knife to my throat, hit gas pedal and the guy doesn't even need to move, I would have cut my own throat, think that would have ruined my day..

 

Harry

[MrP 81]

Clearly the scenario we haven't planned for is when robbers finally put two and two together and approach us running backwards. This was meant as a joke but the more I think about it, NJ makes this a nearly foolproof plan.

[ClangClang 14]

 

 

What I'm trying to figure out here is: why? Why is it wrong to shoot someone who committed a crime? Why is a robber, a rapist, or a burglar protected the second they turn their back against you to run away?

 

Because at that point, the crime is over, you are no longer under threat of mortal harm, and the same US Constitution that guarantees our right to keep and bear arms also guarantees them the right to not be "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

[vladtepes 1,060]

Because at that point, the crime is over, you are no longer under threat of mortal harm, and the same US Constitution that guarantees our right to keep and bear arms also guarantees them the right to not be "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

 

 

again.. check out Joe Horn.. there was only a theft of property (not even his property).. and at least ONE of the guys was shot in the back.. NO charges filed..

 

while everyone has rights.. YOUR rights end where MINE begin.. if you just committed a crime against me or someone immediately around me that I observed.. and it is "in the moment" and you use a firearm to "stop" the individual.. I think there should be a fair amount of protection involved there.. not saying we should encourage people to "play cop"...

 

you are walking in the city.. and you turn a corner.. and there is a 300+ lb thug beating a women within an inch of her life.. blood everywhere.. he sees you and instantly runs.. you are armed..

 

a) let him run away and hope that the police stop him before he does someone else harm?

or

b) do society a favor and stop him..

 

what is the morally correct course of action? the problem as I see it.. is that our society attempts to be SO neutral that it ignores common sense.. if you observe a violent crime.. and you shoot someone in the leg to stop them from running away.. that should be a NO BRAINER.. you should get a reward.. but no.. society instead focuses on how you robbed him of his future.. watch the lawsuits roll in.. there is literally NO logic applied.. and it is absurd..

 

if someone threatens to do you bodily harm.. I don't care if they are walking.. running.. or skipping away.. there should be NO liability for stopping the individual who just threatened your life..

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

I recently read that it costs $30,000 per year to house a prisoner in Sussex county.

 

124gr Federal Hydra Shock 9mm JHPs cost 55 cents each and are a much more permanent solution.

[diamondd817 827]

again.. check out Joe Horn.. there was only a theft of property (not even his property).. and at least ONE of the guys was shot in the back.. NO charges filed..

 

while everyone has rights.. YOUR rights end where MINE begin.. if you just committed a crime against me or someone immediately around me that I observed.. and it is "in the moment" and you use a firearm to "stop" the individual.. I think there should be a fair amount of protection involved there.. not saying we should encourage people to "play cop"...

 

you are walking in the city.. and you turn a corner.. and there is a 300+ lb thug beating a women within an inch of her life.. blood everywhere.. he sees you and instantly runs.. you are armed..

 

a) let him run away and hope that the police stop him before he does someone else harm?

or

b) do society a favor and stop him..

 

what is the morally correct course of action? the problem as I see it.. is that our society attempts to be SO neutral that it ignores common sense.. if you observe a violent crime.. and you shoot someone in the leg to stop them from running away.. that should be a NO BRAINER.. you should get a reward.. but no.. society instead focuses on how you robbed him of his future.. watch the lawsuits roll in.. there is literally NO logic applied.. and it is absurd..

 

if someone threatens to do you bodily harm.. I don't care if they are walking.. running.. or skipping away.. there should be NO liability for stopping the individual who just threatened your life..

 

You already stopped the attack and saved the women's life if the thug runs. At that point let the cops get him. If he stopped attacking her and started advancing toward you then you would be just to open fire. Shooting someone in the leg is a gamble, you might miss, and wind up killing. Either way you will find yourself in a heap of crap. Even being a cop your not allowed to open fire at will, you must use deadly force as a last resort. And The way I see it, being dead you don't learn a lesson, being in jail for years is much worse.

[bulpup 98]

more info.

 

Williamson Daily

 

Rodney Sells, who is Canul’s landlord and friend, said he gave Canul a ride to Walmart to cash his paycheck and saw the entire incident unfold.

 

Sells said Abbot came up to Canul, put the sharp object to his throat.

 

“I saw the guy grab him from behind the neck and he said ‘I’ll give you a ride,’ so I thought he was his friend, but the guy was digging in Jesse’s back pocket all the time and he had his arm around him and all I could see was something shiny and I thought it was a knife,” Sells said. “Jesse was digging in his front pocket at the time and when Jesse got his gun out and put it up to his neck, he said ‘You better back up, you better back up.’ The guy dug a couple more seconds until he got his wallet out and then he tried to take off and that’s when Jesse shot him — when he took off running.

 

“I guess he was going to give the guy a chance to back up, but when he got his wallet and was going on with the process, that’s when Jesse shot him. He was maybe eight to 10 feet away. I thought he missed him because the guy kept running all the way into Walmart. Apparently, he didn’t.”

 

Sells said Canul had been bullied all his life and finally had enough.

 

“He’s been put into the hospital and I guess he’d just got tired of it,” Sells said. “I’d have shot him, too.”

 

 

 

Read more: The Williamson Daily News - Bail set at 40K for Canul

[Smokin .50 1,907]

This here ain't the old west and you're no Rooster Cogburn! We can't go around willy-nilly shooting escaping robbers in the back. Cops can't even throw their heavy Motorola MT-500 Walkie-Talkies (affectionately called "Bricks") at bad guys stealing bicycles anymore! And yes, the thief got hit with the radio in his head and crashed the bike & died!

 

Once the bad guy runs away from you, the window to engage is over. UNLESS he's running towards another potential victim with a weapon in his hands or you're in fear for their life, etc. Even then you have to be careful---shooting someone in the back doesn't look good no matter how much the guy is doing wrong, unless he's going to kill someone else.