1911 Guru's... +P Or +P+ Out Of A Ruger Sr1911?

[DTtuner 21]

What's the skinny on using high-power ammo in a 1911?

 

Especially the Ruger?

 

I know that 1911's are supposed to be battle-proven.

Plus, Ruger typically makes a beefier, more rugged gun.

 

Why? Because I'm trying to justify the .45 over a .357 revolver, and use stopping power as the excuse.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Either calibers will be perfect for defensive use. Can't go wrong with either.

[DTtuner 21]

Well... I know that much.

 

Hmm, let me re-word....

 

 

Will +P or +P+ cause damage to a 1911 ?

[henrym 19]

It all depends on what the barrel is rated for. Your best bet is to call Ruger and ask. SAAMI doesn't have a hard set guideline on what the pressures are for +P or +P+. You can look at that in two ways. One- the designation is only hype. Two- the pressures in +P and +P+ are above the SAAMI safe pressures for the cartridge. Anyone who has shot +P or +P+ can attest to the fact that it is snappier than a standard loading. If you run either of those rounds through the gun and it is not designed for it, you risk doing permanent damage to the firearm, and risk voiding the warranty.

[raz-0 1,259]

Assuming they aren't putting ina crap barrel, since .45acp is so low pressure, +P shouldn't be an issue unless they took way too much when throating the barrel. +P is a spec for .45acp, and it means you go from 19,000 PSI to 23,000PSI as the pressure limit.

 

Nobody can say ANYTHING about +P+ reliability. All that means is that the laod is higher pressure than SAAMI permits for +P. Unless they tell you, nobody can say how much higher.

 

+P will always wear out a gun faster than standard pressure loads.

[mcbethr 42]

I've fired +P out if my Auto Ordnance 1911, and it is considered one of the lower-end models. If my memory serves correctly, I fired exactly 30 rounds of the Hornandy Critical Defense. The gun was just fine.

 

Honestly, I don't see how it could harm it as long as you are not doing it every day. And anyway, most of the +P rounds you can find will be hollow points from Corbon or Hornandy, which are expensive to shoot in the first place, so odds are that you will only shoot those rounds a couple of times to get confidence that your gun feeds them properly.

 

That being said, a 230 grain bullet traveling at 830 feet per second is already one big wrecking ball. I don't see how speeding it up by 20% is going to make that much of a difference in the target. Would you rather get hit by a freight train traveling at 60 miles per hour, or one that is traveling at 72 miles per hour (20% faster)? The end result is that you were still just hit by a freight train.

 

If you are weighing .357 vs. .45, then I would actually weigh it by possibilities for practice. With the .357, you can shoot cheaper .38 caliber rounds. But of course with the .45, you can get a .22LR conversion kit.

 

So as always...Buy the gun that you love. Since you mentioned the Ruger 1911 by name, and didn't mention a specific .357, I can only conclude that you really want the SR 1911 and are trying to be practical. This is New Jersey. You can't afford to be practical here because if you get buyers remorse buying what is practical rather than what you love, you will have to wait at least 30 days until you can rectify your mistake.

 

Go with the 1911 if you love it. It will eat +P just fine and you will be happier in the long run.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Well... I know that much.

 

Hmm, let me re-word....

 

 

Will +P or +P+ cause damage to a 1911 ?

 

technically, yes since your using a higher pressure round. it would cause more wear-n-tear on the gun. BUT, how much +P ammo do you plan on shooting that ammo? If your rich or reload then it might be an issue, but for a regular joe-shmoe like me it's not.

[tony357 386]

If you are going to shoot alot of +P ammo change the recoil spring and you will have normal wear..

[redwings9 5]

DT;I have shot +P+ JHP in all my 1911's (Kimber Ultra,Remington R 1 and my EMP ) usually about 300 rounds worth after the initial break in of 200-300 rds of FMJ. Just to make sure they are ready to carry for off duty use. However I would not shoot a steady diet of them as they will quickly wear down a weapon. I will about twice a month fire one magazine just to make sure everything is still good to go. In the end see what the makers recommend and then decide for yourself. I do find that I need to change out springs more often when shooting the heavy loads.

[robot_hell 72]

If you are going to shoot alot of +P ammo change the recoil spring and you will have normal wear..

 

The recoil spring's purpose in a 1911 is to return the slide to battery. It's not a blowback action, messing with the spring weight may end up hurting the reliability of the action

 

Running a steady diet of +P will increase wear, even if the gun is rated for it.

[GRIZ 3,369]

If you are going to shoot alot of +P ammo change the recoil spring and you will have normal wear..

 

Robot hell hit it 100%. Returning the slide to battery is the only function of the recoil spring. I am not a firearms genius but I've always figured John Browning pretty much figured out what weight spring the 1911 should have.

 

DTtuner, if you are looking for 357 velocities and energy figures get a 357. Don't try to make a 45 ACP something its not. A 4" 357 is about the best all around handgun made.

[raz-0 1,259]

Robot hell hit it 100%. Returning the slide to battery is the only function of the recoil spring. I am not a firearms genius but I've always figured John Browning pretty much figured out what weight spring the 1911 should have.

 

DTtuner, if you are looking for 357 velocities and energy figures get a 357. Don't try to make a 45 ACP something its not. A 4" 357 is about the best all around handgun made.

 

Really, so the slide doesn't slow any compressing the recoil spring or main spring eh? Doesn't store up any kinetic energy or anything like that?

 

That's some slick physics magic.

 

JMB figured out the right weight spring for 230gr ball ammo going about 830fps. Change the weight of the bullet, or the velocity of the bullet, and optimum spring weight changes. Also, just because JMB came up with an optimum wieght doesn't mean that is what shipped in any particular gun manufactured today.

 

Also, if you are just going to feed your gun expensive +P+, might as well get a .460 rowland conversion kit and be done with it.

[Old School 611]

Really, so the slide doesn't slow any compressing the recoil spring or main spring eh? Doesn't store up any kinetic energy or anything like that?

 

That's some slick physics magic.

 

JMB figured out the right weight spring for 230gr ball ammo going about 830fps. Change the weight of the bullet, or the velocity of the bullet, and optimum spring weight changes. Also, just because JMB came up with an optimum wieght doesn't mean that is what shipped in any particular gun manufactured today.

 

Also, if you are just going to feed your gun expensive +P+, might as well get a .460 rowland conversion kit and be done with it.

 

I'd stay away from +P+ being that there is no SAMMI std. It's easy enough to find out if your pistol is rated for +P from the manufacturer. And other than function testing I wouldn't feed any pistol a steady diet of it. I does put additional stress on the pistol.

 

As far as changing springs...If a pistol is rated +P use the std springs just keep them current.

 

As raz-0 said the recoil spring in a JMB design has several fuctions. It does slow the slide as the pistol comes out of battery moving to full open and it returns the slide/barrel to battery. If you put a heavier spring in to slow the slide on opening(and prevent battering the frame) The return of the slide to battery is much more violent as well and you have to live with the consequences of that( muzzle dip and pistol wear).

 

So weigh your options and don't try to make your pistol something it is not.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Really, so the slide doesn't slow any compressing the recoil spring or main spring eh? Doesn't store up any kinetic energy or anything like that?

 

That's some slick physics magic.

 

JMB figured out the right weight spring for 230gr ball ammo going about 830fps. Change the weight of the bullet, or the velocity of the bullet, and optimum spring weight changes. Also, just because JMB came up with an optimum wieght doesn't mean that is what shipped in any particular gun manufactured today.

 

Also, if you are just going to feed your gun expensive +P+, might as well get a .460 rowland conversion kit and be done with it.

 

If what you're saying is the recoil spring slows the slide down as it goes back, that is true and merely coincidental to the spring's function to its primary function of returning the slide to battery. However this effect is very small. The locking lugs take the force of the bullet being fired, not the recoil spring. The bullet is gone before the recoil spring really comes into play.

 

I'll tell you some more "physics magic". That 25% heavier recoil spring will also slam that slide forward 25% harder than the standard spring. This can cause feeding problems and will accelerate wear on the slide, extractor, slide stop and eventually will elongate the hole in the frame for the slide stop. All that extra force on the slide is also transferred to the frame (where else can it go). The heavy spring will also increase the recoil impetus making recoil come faster or sharper.

 

Browning didn't specify a spring weight. He specified a wire diameter and type, a number of coils, and a length of spring. JMB optimized operation by designing the 1911 around the characteristics of military ammo. He also allowed for variances in ammo. That's why you can shoot a 185 gr bullet at 1000 fps or GI 230 gr and both will work in the gun. The most important characteristic JMB considered was pressure not velocity or bullet weight. Pressure iand pressure curve is more the determining factor in function than bullet weight or velocity.

 

There is a lot more to this spring thing but everything I've said is "physics magic".

 

It always amazes me that people buy a 9mm and try to make it a 357 SIG or a 45 ACP and try to make it a 44 mag by going to +P or +P+ ammo. Buy a gun that shoots standard ammo giving the performance you want.

[redwings9 5]

Just as a side note one of the reasons I shot it so much is that I have access to it and does not cost me an arm an a leg and is the same as carried on duty.....

[tony357 386]

You can tune your pistol to your load by changing the recoil spring..This is all i can do to change your mind..

From Wilson combat..

 

Guide to 1911 Recoil Springs by Wilson Combat

Posted on November 5, 2010 by admin

 

The recoil spring in a 1911 pistol is an important part of the puzzle of overall autoloader reliability. The primary purpose of the recoil spring is to strip a cartridge from the magazine during the feeding process and secondly, to protect the frame from excess slide battering during operation.

Our recoil springs are carefully wound and heat-treated in the USA of the finest ordnance-spec music wire to give you long-lasting durability and resistance to heat and deformation over time. They have been thoroughly tested and will maintain a consistent spring weight during long-term use.

Even though Wilson Combat recoil springs are the best springs you can buy, we recommend changing your recoil springs at regular intervals to optimize your pistol’s performance and enhance reliability.

When is it time to change your recoil spring?

• If you start getting failures to return to battery while feeding it may be an indication that your recoil spring is losing some of its overall length. Typically, compact pistols will require more frequent length recoil spring changes than standard pistols.
  
• If your Shok-Buff recoil buffer is becoming torn within a few hundred rounds after installation-that is also evidence that your recoil spring is ready to be replaced.
  
• Any easy way to check for a worn spring is to compare your recoil spring versus a new spring of the same weight and brand. If your spring has lost approximately one-half an inch of overall length, it is time to replace your spring. To ensure this you should always have extra recoil springs of your desired weight(s) on hand.
  
• Any time you buy a second-hand or older 1911 pistol, it is a good idea to bring all unknown poundage springs back to factory spec for reliable operation. New, quality springs are a cheap insurance policy against malfunctions and pistol damage.
  
• If your ejection or extraction pattern suddenly changes, you may have a weakened recoil spring.
  

What is the right spring weight for your pistol?

• The proper recoil spring weight for a 1911 pistol is dependent on the caliber, length of the barrel and the tension of the hammer spring.
  
• It is advised to tune your spring weights based on the type of loads you prefer to shoot most often. If you shoot mostly lighter loadings, use weights at the lower of the spectrum; conversely if you prefer heavier or +P loads, try heavier springs.
  
• For all-around reliability try spring weights in the median of the recommended spectrum.
  
• If your pistol fails to lock back on the last round after installing a new recoil spring you may need to try a lighter weight spring.
  
• Wilson Combat recommended spring weight ranges are as follows.
  

Caliber/Barrel length Recommended Recoil Spring Weight Range .45 ACP 5” 15-18.5# .45 ACP 4.25” 17-20# .45 ACP 4” 18-22# 9mm 5” 10-12# 9mm 4” 11-13# .38 Super 5” 13-16# 10mm 5” 18.5-2

When replacing your pistol’s recoil spring it is important to remember to change your firing pin spring at the same time.

• The firing pin spring is one of the most important springs in your 1911 pistol.
  
• A weak or broken firing pin spring can cause a failure to fire and can also reduce the drop-safe qualities of your pistol.
  

Buy Wilson Combat recoil springs here.

[robot_hell 72]

It might come from Wilson, but it's not a philosophy I subscribe to. Remember: they are in the business of selling springs.

 

The recoil spring's primary function is indeed to strip a round from the magazine, and bring the firearm back into battery. It doesn't matter how hot or tame your loads are, the weight of the round doesn't change significantly, so why would you expect less (or more) force to be required to chamber it?

 

Overspring the pistol and you risk outrunning the magazine spring, underspring it and you might not have the force necessary to bring it back into battery.

 

Really, so the slide doesn't slow any compressing the recoil spring or main spring eh? Doesn't store up any kinetic energy or anything like that?

 

That's some slick physics magic.

 

I never implied that it didn't, but what happens when the slide transfers its momentum to the frame isn't greatly affected by that spring. Changing the spring rate will affect the feel of the recoil, yes, but you're not saving wear on the frame by using a stiffer spring-- you are merely transferring the location of the wear (the net energy transfer is the same, as Griz said).

[Maksim 1,504]

well yes, hotter loads means more wear on the gun.

 

But... you do absolutely need to change the recoil spring if you shoot hotter loads. That is the gun tuning part itself.

 

In any case, springs should all be changed after x amount of rounds, same as magazine springs, etc.

 

Not changing springs is like buying a new car and saying you should not need to change oil, or need different oil weights for different type of car abuse.

[Old School 611]

well yes, hotter loads means more wear on the gun.

 

But... you do absolutely need to change the recoil spring if you shoot hotter loads. That is the gun tuning part itself. I call BS on this Maks. If a stock pistol is rated +P those are the springs that you shoot!

 

In any case, springs should all be changed after x amount of rounds, same as magazine springs, etc. Here we agree, absolutely!

 

Not changing springs is like buying a new car and saying you should not need to change oil, or need different oil weights for different type of car abuse.

 

Above

[robot_hell 72]

But... you do absolutely need to change the recoil spring if you shoot hotter loads. That is the gun tuning part itself.

 

At least in a 1911, I feel the term "tuning" refers to changing the timing of the gun by means of altering the locking lugs and the length of the link, more so than the spring rates. (All stuff I'm not particularly inclined to do, but some are).

[Maksim 1,504]

Frank,

 

if the gun is is rated for +p, I am sure it will work... and no reason it would not, but it would not be optimal.

 

Just like my Limited gun for USPSA. I can shoot +p loads, but there is a reason why the gun comes shipped with 3 different springs of various weights....

 

for Light loads, standard loads, and +p loads.

[raz-0 1,259]

If what you're saying is the recoil spring slows the slide down as it goes back, that is true and merely coincidental to the spring's function to its primary function of returning the slide to battery. However this effect is very small. The locking lugs take the force of the bullet being fired, not the recoil spring. The bullet is gone before the recoil spring really comes into play.

 

No, it isn't coincidental. It's part of how you control the timing of the gun, which is in fact part of it's basic function. Yes, the locking lugs bear a great deal of force, but another area subject to significant forces is the impact face of the frame. Shoot a hotter round, you have no choice but to wear things faster, but there is as fast as you have to, and as fast as you can. Playing the spring game can keep it down to as fast as you have to.

 

I'll tell you some more "physics magic". That 25% heavier recoil spring will also slam that slide forward 25% harder than the standard spring. This can cause feeding problems and will accelerate wear on the slide, extractor, slide stop and eventually will elongate the hole in the frame for the slide stop. All that extra force on the slide is also transferred to the frame (where else can it go). The heavy spring will also increase the recoil impetus making recoil come faster or sharper.

 

Right on the first part, which is why you don't want to use mroe spring than you need for a round if you want maximum lifespan of the firearm. However, shoot a hotter round, and what's optimum changes. Yes, once again hotter round = more wear. I never said otherwise. However it will NOT increase recoil. A given bullet X imparts a certain amount of energy. That energy is going into the gun other than what gets turned into heat when the spring compresses, which is negligible. By and large take the same load, and stick a lighter spring under it, and people will tell you the recoil impulse is sharper. Mainly because you get more flip as the push comes suddenly when the light spring gets compressed quickly and the slide smashes into the impact face of the frame. Put a heavier spring in and the recoil impulse tends to get a bit more pushy as the impulse is spread out over the longer period to compress the spring. You tend to get the whole gun moving rather than muzzle flip, but you also risk getting muzzle dip on return to battery.

 

Browning didn't specify a spring weight. He specified a wire diameter and type, a number of coils, and a length of spring. JMB optimized operation by designing the 1911 around the characteristics of military ammo. He also allowed for variances in ammo. That's why you can shoot a 185 gr bullet at 1000 fps or GI 230 gr and both will work in the gun. The most important characteristic JMB considered was pressure not velocity or bullet weight. Pressure iand pressure curve is more the determining factor in function than bullet weight or velocity.

 

Seriously? Bullet weight and velocity are interelated with pressure like Watts = Volts x Amps. I would guess JMB focused on pressure because copper discs in a test fixture were probably easier to integrate into a QA test for production that the math involved in using a ballistic pendulum to measure velocity. Today, modern timing circuits make it much simpler ot measure velocity.

 

 

There is a lot more to this spring thing but everything I've said is "physics magic".

 

No, you said something between inaccurate and apocryphal, and when called on it replaced it with a more accurate statement. What you described initially would have ot be magic. What you replaced it with is closer to reality.

 

It always amazes me that people buy a 9mm and try to make it a 357 SIG or a 45 ACP and try to make it a 44 mag by going to +P or +P+ ammo. Buy a gun that shoots standard ammo giving the performance you want.

 

In that I would tend to agree with you. although +P in 9 and .45 isn't that absurd, especially in a modern firearm. 9mm with it's subgun history is very capable of being run much hotter than the factory pistol loadings we have, and moder guns have the toughness to take it in stride given they are usually good to go for ammo that is as abusive as +P 9mm. .45 +P is still so low pressure that given modern metallurgy, you probably aren't pushing things too far. +P+ I feel is just stupid, If the manufacturer needs to go past +P pressures to get the projectile to perform, they need ot work on their projectile.

[raz-0 1,259]

At least in a 1911, I feel the term "tuning" refers to changing the timing of the gun by means of altering the locking lugs and the length of the link, more so than the spring rates. (All stuff I'm not particularly inclined to do, but some are).

 

No, the locking lugs get fit to the frame correctly, and the link size follows so you get proper lockup. If you fit your lugs to delay unlocking too long, your gun has a problem and is going to get damaged. There's fit right, and there's not fit right. I've never seen anyone talk about messing with a good fit to get a 1911 cycling a certain way. Timing of the gun is controlled by the load, the recoil and main spring, and the angle you put on the firing pin stop.

[Old School 611]

Frank,

 

if the gun is is rated for +p, I am sure it will work... and no reason it would not, but it would not be optimal.

 

Just like my Limited gun for USPSA. I can shoot +p loads, but there is a reason why the gun comes shipped with 3 different springs of various weights....

 

for Light loads, standard loads, and +p loads.

 

Well Maks I quess we are at an impass. If I'm shooting +P I'm shooting a defense load. If I'm shooting a defense load I'm shooting a defense gun. If I'm shooting a defense gun it is going to be stock as the manufacturer made it. If the manufacturer reccomends changing to a differnt sping great.

But I think there are too many armchair gunsmiths out there and too many people F'ing up good firearms. Is your carry gun stock? Mine is.

[Old School 611]

[Maksim 1,504]

My carry guns is a German Makarov with regular jhp loads, and my other is a going to be a Hk P7 PSP which will most likely use regular or +p loads.

 

A don't really consider a different weight spring a big gun change. =P

[GRIZ 3,369]

No, it isn't coincidental. It's part of how you control the timing of the gun, which is in fact part of it's basic function. Yes, the locking lugs bear a great deal of force, but another area subject to significant forces is the impact face of the frame. Shoot a hotter round, you have no choice but to wear things faster, but there is as fast as you have to, and as fast as you can. Playing the spring game can keep it down to as fast as you have to.

 

Right on the first part, which is why you don't want to use mroe spring than you need for a round if you want maximum lifespan of the firearm. However, shoot a hotter round, and what's optimum changes. Yes, once again hotter round = more wear. I never said otherwise. However it will NOT increase recoil. A given bullet X imparts a certain amount of energy. That energy is going into the gun other than what gets turned into heat when the spring compresses, which is negligible. By and large take the same load, and stick a lighter spring under it, and people will tell you the recoil impulse is sharper. Mainly because you get more flip as the push comes suddenly when the light spring gets compressed quickly and the slide smashes into the impact face of the frame. Put a heavier spring in and the recoil impulse tends to get a bit more pushy as the impulse is spread out over the longer period to compress the spring. You tend to get the whole gun moving rather than muzzle flip, but you also risk getting muzzle dip on return to battery.

 

 

 

Seriously? Bullet weight and velocity are interelated with pressure like Watts = Volts x Amps. I would guess JMB focused on pressure because copper discs in a test fixture were probably easier to integrate into a QA test for production that the math involved in using a ballistic pendulum to measure velocity. Today, modern timing circuits make it much simpler ot measure velocity.

 

 

 

 

No, you said something between inaccurate and apocryphal, and when called on it replaced it with a more accurate statement. What you described initially would have ot be magic. What you replaced it with is closer to reality.

 

 

 

In that I would tend to agree with you. although +P in 9 and .45 isn't that absurd, especially in a modern firearm. 9mm with it's subgun history is very capable of being run much hotter than the factory pistol loadings we have, and moder guns have the toughness to take it in stride given they are usually good to go for ammo that is as abusive as +P 9mm. .45 +P is still so low pressure that given modern metallurgy, you probably aren't pushing things too far. +P+ I feel is just stupid, If the manufacturer needs to go past +P pressures to get the projectile to perform, they need ot work on their projectile.

 

Okay first of all, timing of the gun is fixed. Its going to happen when it happens, Stronger or weaker springs will speed up or slow it down but timing is what it is. You can shoot a 1911 without a recoil spring. Please tell me what that has to do with timing.

 

I didn't say that you would increase the recoil I said it would come faster.

 

Bullet weight and pressure are related. I never said they weren't. What I said is you can shoot a 185 gr bullet and the 1911 will function as it will with a 230 grain bullet.

 

You said, "No, you said something between inaccurate and apocryphal...". Please point out what was inaccurate and apocryphal. You're agreeing with me and saying I'm also inaccurate. Hard to determine what is what the way you word things.

[tony357 386]

The barrell lugs do not take the brunt of firing, They merely hold the barrel in place vertically for accuracy, when the gun fires, rearward action of the slide pulls the barrell vertically down out of the way of the lugs as it travels to the rear stripping the fired case loading the supplied bullet from the mag as it makes its way home again.

[Old School 611]

The barrell lugs do not take the brunt of firing, They merely hold the barrel in place vertically for accuracy, when the gun fires, rearward action of the slide pulls the barrell vertically down out of the way of the lugs as it travels to the rear stripping the fired case loading the supplied bullet from the mag as it makes its way home again.

 

It's a locked breach pistol the lugs don't disengage until the bullet is out of the barrel. The lugs are the locking device. And a 1911 doesn't have beefy lugs compared to modern pistols that lock up in the barrel hood.