Operation Right Denied

[71ragtopgoat 23]

Should we all file for a concealed carry permit using the same lawyer to show how NJ is systematically denying a large spectrum of its citizens it's second amendment rights.?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I don't think so, I wouldn't want to have to put down on future applications that I was denied previously, but will keep en eye on this thread to see what others think.

[Bob B 103]

It has already been done. Muller v. Maenza. Brought by Six plaintiffs (now five because one got his permit after the third appeal - the guy who was kidnapped), the Second Amendment Foundation and the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. The six plaintiffs all applied for permits and were denied - at least one was post-McDonald. There's a thread on here somewhere about it. Dave Jensen is the attorney right now. He will be speaking at the next NJ2AS meeting. Presumably, Alan Gura will step in when it gets to SCOTUS. Alan is speaking at the Feb NJ2AS meeting. You can check our website for the dates and locations. At the meetings you will be able to ask them questions.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

I'm thinking hundreds. Not six people. A flash mob as it were. It would have to be well organized through one group first collecting applications.Then maybe filing them all at once and recording response times and the reasons for denial. As well as accumulating the backgrounds of those that file. It would also help speed along the fight to uncover NJ's permit laws and wreak havoc in the State attorney's office i think.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I don't think this would do anyone any good. The state doesn't give a crap about what we do with 100's of us. 25k of us and maybe but I dont really see that happening.

 

You would also need to find some news agency's to give the story a lot of weight to even possibly get the desired effect. Preferabily on a national level.

[Dan 177]

I thought about something like this in the past as well. A sure way to prove the point and drive the message home that NJ's permit scheme is a farce, and an embarrassment. It's purpose is to give the illusion that NJ has provisions to allow its citizens the right to carry, but in reality it is a system of oppression of those rights.

 

My first question would be what the impact of being denied a CCW permit in NJ would have on me. Would I be denied all future pistol permits, or even perhaps an FID if I move somewhere else in NJ and have to re-apply? Ultimately what trouble, if any would it cause.

 

Second, it would have to be a well organized and publicized event. SAF, NJ2AS, ANJRPC, etc should be involved at some level. I would want to make sure an event like this would help our case, and not turn it into a circus. The anti's specialize in twisting stories to support their views.

 

Third, as others said, it would have to have the numbers behind it. Thousands, not 10's or 100's.

[BigHayden 77]

I'm thinking hundreds. Not six people. A flash mob as it were. It would have to be well organized through one group first collecting applications.Then maybe filing them all at once and recording response times and the reasons for denial. As well as accumulating the backgrounds of those that file. It would also help speed along the fight to uncover NJ's permit laws and wreak havoc in the State attorney's office i think.

 

Yeah, because if there's one thing we're good at in NJ it's motivating gun owners to do things in a big group!

 

Should we do it? Probably.

 

Can we do it? HA!

[this_is_nascar 162]

^{Rather than spending the time and effort this would require, as well as the fact you'd be making some lawyer rich, why not work on getting those politicians who are not in favor of changing NJ firearms laws removed from office?}

[raz-0 1,259]

OK, lets say you got 500 people together, and all got denied. What would it do for any legal argument? I'm not seeing the benefit.

[BigHayden 77]

^{Rather than spending the time and effort this would require, as well as the fact you'd be making some lawyer rich, why not work on getting those politicians who are not in favor of changing NJ firearms laws removed from office?}

 

Great idea. How? We just had an election where every legislative spot was up for grabs and all the incumbents were re-elected. I'm pretty sure we gun owners did our part to vote against them, and they still all got back in. Like I said, we suck at getting NJ gun owners to do anything as a group. The courts are the only way anything will ever change in NJ, period. And there are people on here who don't even believe that.

[BigHayden 77]

OK, lets say you got 500 people together, and all got denied. What would it do for any legal argument? I'm not seeing the benefit.

 

The anti's could then say, "See? Our system works! We just kept 500 dangerous people from carrying weapons on our streets where they could kill orphans and nuns at will! Vote Democrat!"

[Zell959 40]

^{Rather than spending the time and effort this would require, as well as the fact you'd be making some lawyer rich, why not work on getting those politicians who are not in favor of changing NJ firearms laws removed from office?}

 

Trying, but the average NRA reportcard for a given NJ residents choices usually reads something like:

 

Thomas Alyamoneytauneeons, III - Democrat, Grade: F

Christine Childrenchildrenblahblahchildren - Democrat, Grade: F

 

Robert Bestavailbutstillterrible, jr. - Republican, Grade: D

Steven Completelyunelectablenmoot - Republican, Grade: C

[PDM 91]

Only possible benefit I could see would be if you had such a large number that it made the news. I doubt that would happen and even if it did, I agree that the reaction of the majority of the people in this state would be "good, the law is working!". Here is what might wake a few people up: A rally in Trenton where 10,000 gun owners participate. Even 5,000 would probably do it. I know it's been suggested and maybe even tried before with no success. But it should in theory be possible if the ANJRPC took the lead, with help from every local gun club in the state, NJ2AS, Gunforhire radio, etc.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Bottom line............... to change what we have today, the laws have to change. It's as simple as that. Direct your focus on what directly impacts the changing of the law(s). The current lawmakers must change their minds or be replaced by those who'd be willing to change the NJ firearms laws. I know I'm over-simplifying this and don't have a suggestion as to how to start, but it really is that simple of a concept. The "how-to" and "execution" is the difficult part of getting started.

[Duppie 73]

I agree that CC is just another right that NJ sees fit to deprive it's residents of but IMHO if I was to expend my energies and resources right now, it would be toward the strengthening and clarification of NJ's Castle Doctrine such as Wisconsin did recently.

Nothing scares me more than the thought that in a tragic moment of defending myself,family and property, I am put in a position where I can lose my freedom and assets to the very people I was defending it against.

I believe that this is a more immediate and pressing issue than CC.and perhaps even more realistically attainable.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

It has already been done. Muller v. Maenza. Brought by Six plaintiffs (now five because one got his permit after the third appeal - the guy who was kidnapped), the Second Amendment Foundation and the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. The six plaintiffs all applied for permits and were denied - at least one was post-McDonald. There's a thread on here somewhere about it. Dave Jensen is the attorney right now. He will be speaking at the next NJ2AS meeting. Presumably, Alan Gura will step in when it gets to SCOTUS. Alan is speaking at the Feb NJ2AS meeting. You can check our website for the dates and locations. At the meetings you will be able to ask them questions.

 

This. While I applaud the plan, it's already being carried out.

 

How about one which challenges the AWB? Let's all just buy 30 round mags and put one in every home in NJ, lol

[Midwest 28]

I am an outsider. But I don't think having 500 or 5000 all applying for carry permits will do anything except bring some temporary publicity and then it will be forgotten by the media. Like others have said, applying for a carry permit and getting denied could hurt your chances for future permits (when you have to put on an application if you ever been denied). I have done some research and have references below...

 

 

 

Good ideas

 

Rallies in Trenton (and elsewhere like Atlantic City while some major convention going on) ,could bring free publicity and get the TV media from both NY and PA to cover it.

 

Publicize on other gun forums and gun groups from other states. (There are people living in other states who are former NJ residents or who have friends or relatives living in NJ and thus have a stake in positive gun reforms for NJ as as those who live there).

 

A push to end the FID system, as it is redundant and pointless now that NICS is in place. I cannot see any legal reason why gun owners in New Jersey (or anywhere else for that matter) still need to go through two or three background checks just to buy a pistol unlike the most of the country where one background check is all that is needed. NJ still can keep their State Point Of Contact status (like PA does) without the Firearms ID card. (Some states have a State POC for long guns and pistols, other states have the State POC for pistols and the Federal NICS for long guns, other states have just the Federal NICS for both long guns and pistols).

 

 

As above, repeal the 1966 Sills act mandating the FID system but convert the Firearms ID cards into carry permits. ID cards would no longer be needed to purchase long guns and pistols as the State POC would be all that is needed for a background check as in other states.

 

Put back the second amendment back into the NJ constitution (which was allegedly taken out in 1947 during a constitutional convention in NJ). http://conservativen...d-in-new-jersey

 

 

 

I found the following interesting and thought provoking. In 1962 there were references to a "Concealed Carry Permit" not a 'carry permit'. So does this imply that open carry WAS allowed with out a permit?

 

http://trentonpdhist...l_Reports/1962/

8th paragraph down

 

"The police division is complying with the provisions of the law regulating control of permits to private citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Very few such permits exist in the City and constant vigilance is maintained to detect and apprehend violators of the concealed weapons law."

 

So what law banned open carry and when?...according to the above, it had to be after 1962?

 

I found a reference to 1924 as when the concealed carry law in NJ went into effect.

"New Jersey had only one gun law (prohibiting dueling) in effect prior to 1924. No licenses,

permits, or other measures were needed to buy, own, or carry a weapon."

 

http://digitalcommon...xt=srhonorsprog

 

(Ironically, my state Kentucky had laws against conceal carry before New Jersey...in 1813! "

"Laws against carrying concealed weapons appeared in Kentucky as early as 1813." )

 

Police issued firearm permits dates back before the 1960's "Despite its shortcomings, the idea of police issued gun permits spread throughout the United States. Between 1911 and 1934 Arkansas, Hawaii, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey,

North Carolina and Oregon all passed laws similar to the Sullivan Law."

 

 

Summary: From the above... it appears that even though there was a permit required for conceal carry in New Jersey from 1924 and on. The references above said nothing about open carry or a 'carry permit' in 1962, but only concealed carry. Was open carry permitted or tolerated until the mid 1960's when the FID system came in?

I can't seem to locate the law as to when specifically open carry was officially banned. Try to get the law forbidding open carrying repealed along with the other reforms, then work on changing the 1924 concealed carry permit law. It might be more doable that way?

[this_is_nascar 162]

I agree that CC is just another right that NJ sees fit to deprive it's residents of but IMHO if I was to expend my energies and resources right now, it would be toward the strengthening and clarification of NJ's Castle Doctrine such as Wisconsin did recently.

Nothing scares me more than the thought that in a tragic moment of defending myself,family and property, I am put in a position where I can lose my freedom and assets to the very people I was defending it against.

I believe that this is a more immediate and pressing issue than CC.and perhaps even more realistically attainable.

 

 

Excellent point and post.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I am an outsider. But I don't think having 500 or 5000 all applying for carry permits will do anything except bring some temporary publicity and then it will be forgotten by the media. Like others have said, applying for a carry permit and getting denied could hurt your chances for future permits (when you have to put on an application if you ever been denied). I have done some research and have references below...

 

 

 

Good ideas

 

Rallies in Trenton (and elsewhere like Atlantic City while some major convention going on) ,could bring free publicity and get the TV media from both NY and PA to cover it.

 

Publicize on other gun forums and gun groups from other states. (There are people living in other states who are former NJ residents or who have friends or relatives living in NJ and thus have a stake in positive gun reforms for NJ as as those who live there).

 

A push to end the FID system, as it is redundant and pointless now that NICS is in place. I cannot see any legal reason why gun owners in New Jersey (or anywhere else for that matter) still need to go through two or three background checks just to buy a pistol unlike the most of the country where one background check is all that is needed. NJ still can keep their State Point Of Contact status (like PA does) without the Firearms ID card. (Some states have a State POC for long guns and pistols, other states have the State POC for pistols and the Federal NICS for long guns, other states have just the Federal NICS for both long guns and pistols).

 

 

As above, repeal the 1966 Sills act mandating the FID system but convert the Firearms ID cards into carry permits. ID cards would no longer be needed to purchase long guns and pistols as the State POC would be all that is needed for a background check as in other states.

 

Put back the second amendment back into the NJ constitution (which was allegedly taken out in 1947 during a constitutional convention in NJ). http://conservativen...d-in-new-jersey

 

 

 

I found the following interesting and thought provoking. In 1962 there were references to a "Concealed Carry Permit" not a 'carry permit'. So does this imply that open carry WAS allowed with out a permit?

 

http://trentonpdhist...l_Reports/1962/

8th paragraph down

 

"The police division is complying with the provisions of the law regulating control of permits to private citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Very few such permits exist in the City and constant vigilance is maintained to detect and apprehend violators of the concealed weapons law."

 

So what law banned open carry and when?...according to the above, it had to be after 1962?

 

I found a reference to 1924 as when the concealed carry law in NJ went into effect.

"New Jersey had only one gun law (prohibiting dueling) in effect prior to 1924. No licenses,

permits, or other measures were needed to buy, own, or carry a weapon."

 

http://digitalcommon...xt=srhonorsprog

 

(Ironically, my state Kentucky had laws against conceal carry before New Jersey...in 1813! "

"Laws against carrying concealed weapons appeared in Kentucky as early as 1813." )

 

Police issued firearm permits dates back before the 1960's "Despite its shortcomings, the idea of police issued gun permits spread throughout the United States. Between 1911 and 1934 Arkansas, Hawaii, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey,

North Carolina and Oregon all passed laws similar to the Sullivan Law."

 

 

Summary: From the above... it appears that even though there was a permit required for conceal carry in New Jersey from 1924 and on. The references above said nothing about open carry or a 'carry permit' in 1962, but only concealed carry. Was open carry permitted or tolerated until the mid 1960's when the FID system came in?

I can't seem to locate the law as to when specifically open carry was officially banned. Try to get the law forbidding open carrying repealed along with the other reforms, then work on changing the 1924 concealed carry permit law. It might be more doable that way?

 

Wait... there are no laws specifically banning open carry in NJ?

[Midwest 28]

Wait... there are no laws specifically banning open carry in NJ?

 

At one time between 1924 and 1962 (and maybe later) there were only concealed carry permits issued according to the Trenton NJ police referenced. Maybe between those dates there was open carry...I cannot locate the specific date or law when open carry was banned....unless it always has been illegal.

[Malsua 1,422]

Wait... there are no laws specifically banning open carry in NJ?

 

There are laws banning possession without first having obtained a carry license, that covers it.

[Midwest 28]

So then the 1924 law banned both concealed and open carry?

 

Trenton NJ 1962 report

"The police division is complying with the provisions of the law regulating control of permits to private citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Very few such permits exist in the City and constant vigilance is maintained to detect and apprehend violators of the concealed weapons law."

[Blue1 1]

The laws are already on the books under transportation of handguns.

[Bob B 103]

2C:39-5.b. Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree if the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. Otherwise it is a crime of the second degree.

 

 

Permit to carry allows you to possess a handgun outside of the exemptions. No specification of open or concealed is given.

[Twospot 38]

I think rather than going for the jugular (ccw) we need to get some smaller wins first. Our friend at NJ2AS (sorry I don't know your name yet) has a great start going with the NJSP "guide book" issue. I think we have a better shot at making progress with getting rid of the FID.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

yes and yes

[Dan 177]

I can't vote on this issue until I understand what will happen when I have to "check the box" that I was previously denied a NJ CCW permit. Great system they have going, making us afraid to even apply for the dang thing.

[Bob B 103]

I think rather than going for the jugular (ccw) we need to get some smaller wins first. Our friend at NJ2AS (sorry I don't know your name yet) has a great start going with the NJSP "guide book" issue. I think we have a better shot at making progress with getting rid of the FID.

 

It's Bob. Agreed about the approach.

[Twospot 38]

Pleasure to meet you Bob! Thank you for all the hard work!

[halbautomatisch 60]

So then the 1924 law banned both concealed and open carry?

 

Trenton NJ 1962 report

"The police division is complying with the provisions of the law regulating control of permits to private citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Very few such permits exist in the City and constant vigilance is maintained to detect and apprehend violators of the concealed weapons law."

My understanding is that open carry was lost by us in 1966, at the same time the FID and pistol permits were created.