Closet Gun Owners

[bulpup 98]

Great post. I do however feel I need to comment on one thing (what I have quoted above).

 

I feel this is the reason why so many people are against firearms (amongst other things.) I am glad you said it however. I mean, you stated yourself, you don't know why you think that. There is nothing wrong with think that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you are correct either. And this is why there is such debate on the subject.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

There is much to suggest that this is true however. Best I have found before running out for the train is this little essay.

 

http://military-sf.com/Killing.htm

 

I am not sure of the author;'s credentials but he talks about the many things that I was trained on as an NCO in the Army. For me, quite honestly, I believe more CCW holders are likely to do nothing, as was the case in the congressman Giffords shooting. I take that as a positive though, despite those outside the firearms community that think if proves there is no use for CCW.

[TheWombat 67]

Having thought about this overnight I should probably rephrase my statement from: "I also believe that the majority of civilians who carry (open or concealed) would 'screw up' in a real situation" to "I also believe that more civilians than pro-gun people anticipate who carry (open or concealed) would not react as they had anticipated in a real situation."

 

I'm not quite happy with the rephrased phrasing and the point I am trying to say is that we all as individuals (hopefully) believe we will react appropriately in a situation, hence the reason why we carry (or wish to carry). However when the situation occurs, I think more of us than expected would not react in the way we believe we would before hand. i.e. we would freeze, run away screaming, shoot the wrong people, not react etc.

 

hth

 

TheWombat

[SpacemanFry 51]

For me, I HATE stickers on cars and would never put one of any kind on my car. I also don't like to put posters or signs on my home etc. I will wear a tasteful shirt but not something that looks like NRA or a Vendor puked all over it with advertisements.

 

However, I don't have any problem talking about it with even extreme anti-gun people, though I don't normally go around starting gun conversation except with people I already know like them.

 

I forget who asked about some ways to convince your SO to change from anti-gun. My SO was very anti owning guns (not anti other people owning guns) mostly from instilled fear of "dangerous" things she's not used to handling (she's also afraid to use/handle my very sharp kitchen knives). The key to winning her over has been to slowly educate her that these are just tools and that every adult needs to know and should know how to use tools. Also zombie movies (especially Walking Dead recently) have helped subconsciously instill the idea that people that know how to use guns and other tools are not victims and masters of their own fate :-)

[SpecialK 193]

I'm wearing a shirt that hs crossed pistols on it right now and when ever I go out I end up talking about guns. I do have some guns in one or two of my closets though.

[Luke_WO 11]

I pulled up behind this guy at a light today. Made me think of this thread immediately. I know you can't read any of the stickers, but nearly all of them are pro-gun. At that point, it's just annoying.

 

[Luke_WO 11]

Wow, that was really small. My bad.

[gunforhire 827]

I will be addressing this question from a few different angles over the next two months on Gun For Hire Radio.

[gunforhire 827]

I will be addressing this question from a few different angles over the next two months on Gun For Hire Radio.

http://gunforhireradio.com/podcasts/GFH_Episode_30.mp3

[Midwest 28]

I don't put any stickers on my vehicles, or wear NRA hats...but I fully support anyone who does. In addition to NRA stickers seen out and about, there are other pro gun stickers ("Live Free or Die" and "From My Cold Dead Hands"..seem popular as well). There seems to be a good amount of Pro Life bumper stickers as well.

 

Most people I know have at least a shotgun and or a pistol,some might have more than that I guess.... I guess here in Kentucky a shotgun is no more looked at differently than a hammer, saw or shovel. I would assume most people have at least a shotgun.

 

If talk of guns comes up amongst friends, family or co workers, usually it is about hunting or some new item they bought or are selling ... Like the women talk about cooking or crafts, the men talk about guns and sports..its a given.

[Genewarper111 18]

This is interesting. There certainly seem to be a lot of people who:

i) believe that their neighbours/coworkers/general public are going to target them in some way shape or form, or

ii) believe that the police are out to do the same (although I love the comment above about the gentleman with a bad haircut)..

 

I've experienced neither. While I sympathise with the poster who commented about being stopped and pressured for search, I've found my limited encounters with police to be positive. Also, my neighbours and coworkers know about my hobby and are uniformly positive that I'm an instructor, even though some are very anti-gun. I don't think that having my Instructor decal or CRSO decal is going to have my car "keyed up" or any such thing.

 

I also heard the GFHradio segment about closet gun owners and have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, there is no point in stirring up antagonism just to get in peoples' faces and force awareness of legal gun ownership on them whether they want to know or not, but on the other hand, it is important to re-insert some reality into the minds of politicians and activists who are bent on demonising every single aspect of gun ownership - I think the attitude to toy guns is way over the top for example, and that there is an imbalance between legislation designed to control legal gun ownership and the actions of legislators and prosecutors regarding how (say) priorities for prosecution, plea-bargaining and sentencing are allocated when a crime involving a firearm is moved through the courts.

 

The most important thing we need to do as a community I think is to continuously press the point that legal firearm ownership in other states has led to a reduction, not an increase, in violent crime, and to challenge people with hard information that we can back up, who wish to say otherwise. This factual information is the key, because when faced with it people will be reduced to "I don't like guns", or something similar. That in the end is all these people have got.

 

So, just my tuppenceworth, and I'm keeping my decals on my car window.

 

G

[TheWombat 67]

....

The most important thing we need to do as a community I think is to continuously press the point that legal firearm ownership in other states has led to a reduction, not an increase, in violent crime, and to challenge people with hard information that we can back up, who wish to say otherwise. This factual information is the key, because when faced with it people will be reduced to "I don't like guns", or something similar. That in the end is all these people have got.

....

 

Apologies for a stupid question, however does the anti-gun lobby agree that the facts show that violent crime has reduced due to legal firearm ownership, or do they cite different reasons, e.g. increased police presence etc etc?

 

I agree that stirring up antagonism is not the way to go, as people typically then just dig in their heels and it becomes a matter of ego/pride/principle.. We are more likely to be successful by increasing the number of gun owners in the state, and this is probably (in my opinion) more likely to happen through hobbies/sports than the fear of need through self-defense.

 

TheWombat

[Parker 213]

I listened to the broadcast, and have one question: How did someone arrive at the assessment that there are; "one million New Jersey gun owners?" I believe a million guns can be owned in this state, I have my doubts on "one million" gun owners. Can anyone substantiate these numbers?

[Dr.Jimmy Rustler 23]

*makes your house a target for robbers if your car has stickers and you dont park in the garage

*draws attention from LEO(im already a young male in a sports car dont need anymore attention)

*people will damage your car without even noticing, imagine some pissed off anti gun nut now

 

that being said im open about it in person with people i know and on FB i have pictures etc.

[Dan 177]

Apologies for a stupid question, however does the anti-gun lobby agree that the facts show that violent crime has reduced due to legal firearm ownership, or do they cite different reasons, e.g. increased police presence etc etc?

 

I agree that stirring up antagonism is not the way to go, as people typically then just dig in their heels and it becomes a matter of ego/pride/principle.. We are more likely to be successful by increasing the number of gun owners in the state, and this is probably (in my opinion) more likely to happen through hobbies/sports than the fear of need through self-defense.

 

TheWombat

 

The problem with sticking to hobbies/sports, is that the anti's then say "well then you don't need an evil black rifle, or be able to hold more than 15 rounds, or buy more than one gun a month, or have anything more powerful than xx type of round" and the list goes on. Any justification you can provide for your hobby/sport will be "shot" down by the anti's overriding sense of you giving up these things on the grounds of the "greater good of public safety is more important than your esoteric hobby".

 

The right to self-defense is unalienable absolute right. The right to own and carry guns is provided by our constitution with the very strong words "shall not be infringed". Was this to protect shooting hobbies and sports? I don't think so. The right to keep and bear arms is unquestionably linked to the absolute right of self defense. To deny the right to arms is to deny a person's right to protect themselves with one of the most powerful self-defense tools available for the past 200 years.

 

No-one can question me that I feel that I need a semi-automatic rifle with 30 round magazines to protect my home and family. I'm not concerned if someone feels that is too much or too little, it is what I need and have a right to have.

[SpacemanFry 51]

I listened to the broadcast, and have one question: How did someone arrive at the assessment that there are; "one million New Jersey gun owners?" I believe a million guns can be owned in this state, I have my doubts on "one million" gun owners. Can anyone substantiate these numbers?

 

It's probably very hard to get an accurate number of gun owners since I'm sure there are quite a few in NJ from pre-FID days, and then FIDs themselves are probably not properly tracked as to whether the people are still in NJ or deceased etc.

 

NJ has about a 9mill population. I wouldn't be that surprised if there were 1 mill gun owners, but I would wager the vast majority are occasional hunters who do not vote on gun issues.

[SpecialK 193]

yesterday I passed a truck with NRA, gun decals and a bog sticker accross the back that said "I am American it is my right to own guns!" I gave the guy athumbs up as we passed him.

[Texas Shooter 35]

Over the weekend, the topic of firearms came up with my wife and our neighbor (non gun owner). Two things stood out for me.

 

1. The average non gun owner thinks that they have a right to defend themselves in their home. When I started listing all the restrictions we have in our homes, they simply did not believe it (i.e. must flee, cannot simply shoot an armed intruder, must hand over items requested, my wife committing a felony by touching my firearm, etc...). If we could get the word out to the masses about how much the laws favor the criminals and how powerless we are in our own homes, I bet we'd see a lot more support.

 

2. On the topic of concealed carry, when I asked my neighbor what she thought of it, the first words were "there will be shootouts in the streets." When I started going over the facts and how crime has gone down and there haven't any shootouts in other states (using my home state of Texas as an example), she backed off and accepted it.

[TheWombat 67]

 

 

The problem with sticking to hobbies/sports, is that the anti's then say "well then you don't need an evil black rifle, or be able to hold more than 15 rounds, or buy more than one gun a month, or have anything more powerful than xx type of round" and the list goes on. Any justification you can provide for your hobby/sport will be "shot" down by the anti's overriding sense of you giving up these things on the grounds of the "greater good of public safety is more important than your esoteric hobby".

 

The right to self-defense is unalienable absolute right. The right to own and carry guns is provided by our constitution with the very strong words "shall not be infringed". Was this to protect shooting hobbies and sports? I don't think so. The right to keep and bear arms is unquestionably linked to the absolute right of self defense. To deny the right to arms is to deny a person's right to protect themselves with one of the most powerful self-defense tools available for the past 200 years.

 

No-one can question me that I feel that I need a semi-automatic rifle with 30 round magazines to protect my home and family. I'm not concerned if someone feels that is too much or too little, it is what I need and have a right to have.

 

I don't disagree however it is about what journey we take to get to the end result. If we directly push using 'rights' and the desire to carry then we are more likely to be fighting politics and apathy/anti from the majority of the public.

 

If however we get more people involved in firearms through hobbies/sports then a percentage of them will naturally migrate to wishing to have firearms for defense/carry once they realize that firearms are safe and they are comfortable with them. We would therefore end up with a larger groundswell of pro-firearm people. Even those who use firearms for hobbies and do to desire to carry would have a greater understanding that firearms a safe.

 

I use myself as an example. I did not understand or agree with the need for the public to have firearms 1 year ago. Over the last 6 months I have got into shooting as a hobbie/sport and more recently my viewpoint has changed re: firearms for carry/defense is not a bad thing (assuming the owners are responsible)

 

We can shout about our 'rights' until the cows come home, we've been shouting for months/years without the level of success we desire Perhaps we also need to consider what other ways we can use in addition in order to achieve the end goal?

 

Just something to think about.

 

TheWombat

[gunforhire 827]

I listened to the broadcast, and have one question: How did someone arrive at the assessment that there are; "one million New Jersey gun owners?" I believe a million guns can be owned in this state, I have my doubts on "one million" gun owners. Can anyone substantiate these numbers?

 

 

Regarding your question about the estimated number of NJ Firearms owners:

 

We had the same question in mind when we were deciding whether or not to invest our time and money, hearts and souls in Gun For Hire Radio, meaning… was there anybody out there who really cares, and is anybody gonna listen?

 

When we began our research, as you can imagine, the task was not a simple one. And, I might add, hopefully never will be—because when the actual identity of every gun owner becomes public knowledge, every one of us will be in immanent jeopardy of losing our guns and our collective freedom forever.

 

Although, because of certain confidential relationships I maintain with policy makers, industry representatives and experts, I’m not at liberty to reveal all the sources we used for data collection. But I assure you, we did dig quite deep into the data pool including: the number of subscribers to certain targeted periodicals, industry sales data from manufacturers, brokers, distributers, wholesalers and retailers, second amendment related membership data, and the like, and then extrapolated from there. Surprisingly, the actual estimate was a bit higher than the one we promote (opting to err on the side of conservatism).

 

As to the source of what might appear to be a mental incongruity: Remember, NICS (which by itself is not a true indicator of actual gun owners, as out of state purchases of long guns by NJ residents will never trigger a NICS check in our home state, but rather in the state of purchase. For instance, if I buy a shot gun or rifle at a PA gun show or at Cabelas the NICS is run in the state the transaction was made) has only been in place since 1998. Also consider the fact that since 1990, New Jersey’s population has increased by almost one million people—and according to available transient demographic data the majority of that increase was a result of emigration from other (gun friendlier states).

 

And anomaly that skews data is the fact that firearms manufactured and purchased prior to 1968 “fly under the radar’” so to speak (we all know someone who has an old firearm around that was left to them by a relative—many of which are in the hands of “gun owners” who don’t even know what a FID card is).

 

And further still, although there are “gun nuts” like you and me who buy a half-dozen guns a year, the vast majority (based on my 30 years as a trainer, and the knowledge I’ve acquired from the dozens of retailers I’m intimately familiar with) the average person buys a gun, and then puts it in his or her nightstand where it will sit for decades collecting dust.

 

Hope this helps.

[djg0770 481]

, my wife committing a felony by touching my firearm,

 

Aw not THIS CRAP again.

 

2C:39-5. Unlawful possession of weapons. a. Machine guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession a machine gun or any instrument or device adaptable for use as a machine gun, without being licensed to do so as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-5, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree if the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. Otherwise it is a crime of the second degree.

-HUGE SNIP-

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

[KpdPipes 388]

Over the weekend, the topic of firearms came up with my wife and our neighbor (non gun owner). Two things stood out for me.

 

1. The average non gun owner thinks that they have a right to defend themselves in their home. When I started listing all the restrictions we have in our homes, they simply did not believe it (i.e. must flee, cannot simply shoot an armed intruder, must hand over items requested, my wife committing a felony by touching my firearm, etc...). If we could get the word out to the masses about how much the laws favor the criminals and how powerless we are in our own homes, I bet we'd see a lot more support.

 

2. On the topic of concealed carry, when I asked my neighbor what she thought of it, the first words were "there will be shootouts in the streets." When I started going over the facts and how crime has gone down and there haven't any shootouts in other states (using my home state of Texas as an example), she backed off and accepted it.

 

There's no duty to retreat inside your home...y'all might want to actually take a look at the laws before you try to explain them to someone else.

[Dan 177]

Aw not THIS CRAP again.

 

I defer to the three pages of discussion on this topic for both sides of the argument.

[Dan 177]

I don't disagree however it is about what journey we take to get to the end result. If we directly push using 'rights' and the desire to carry then we are more likely to be fighting politics and apathy/anti from the majority of the public.

 

If however we get more people involved in firearms through hobbies/sports then a percentage of them will naturally migrate to wishing to have firearms for defense/carry once they realize that firearms are safe and they are comfortable with them. We would therefore end up with a larger groundswell of pro-firearm people. Even those who use firearms for hobbies and do to desire to carry would have a greater understanding that firearms a safe.

 

I use myself as an example. I did not understand or agree with the need for the public to have firearms 1 year ago. Over the last 6 months I have got into shooting as a hobbie/sport and more recently my viewpoint has changed re: firearms for carry/defense is not a bad thing (assuming the owners are responsible)

 

We can shout about our 'rights' until the cows come home, we've been shouting for months/years without the level of success we desire Perhaps we also need to consider what other ways we can use in addition in order to achieve the end goal?

 

Just something to think about.

 

TheWombat

 

I do agree that a good way to start introducing someone to shooting and guns is via the hobby/sporting perspective. To take them to the range, teach them safety and the basics, and let them have a good time. I'm personally responsible for 4 people going out and getting FID's and first guns with this approach. This works great with people on the fence, open minded, or at least has a hint of curiosity around firearms.

 

For those adamant anti's who feel they know what's best for me, and want to impose their own views of their socialist utopia vision on me via erosion of my rights, my arguments and counter-points have a bit of a different twist more along the lines of what I wrote above regarding self defense and unalienable rights.

[Parker 213]

Regarding your question about the estimated number of NJ Firearms owners:

 

We had the same question in mind when we were deciding whether or not to invest our time and money, hearts and souls in Gun For Hire Radio, meaning… was there anybody out there who really cares, and is anybody gonna listen?

 

When we began our research, as you can imagine, the task was not a simple one. And, I might add, hopefully never will be—because when the actual identity of every gun owner becomes public knowledge, every one of us will be in immanent jeopardy of losing our guns and our collective freedom forever.

 

Although, because of certain confidential relationships I maintain with policy makers, industry representatives and experts, I’m not at liberty to reveal all the sources we used for data collection. But I assure you, we did dig quite deep into the data pool including: the number of subscribers to certain targeted periodicals, industry sales data from manufacturers, brokers, distributers, wholesalers and retailers, second amendment related membership data, and the like, and then extrapolated from there. Surprisingly, the actual estimate was a bit higher than the one we promote (opting to err on the side of conservatism).

 

As to the source of what might appear to be a mental incongruity: Remember, NICS (which by itself is not a true indicator of actual gun owners, as out of state purchases of long guns by NJ residents will never trigger a NICS check in our home state, but rather in the state of purchase. For instance, if I buy a shot gun or rifle at a PA gun show or at Cabelas the NICS is run in the state the transaction was made) has only been in place since 1998. Also consider the fact that since 1990, New Jersey’s population has increased by almost one million people—and according to available transient demographic data the majority of that increase was a result of emigration from other (gun friendlier states).

 

And anomaly that skews data is the fact that firearms manufactured and purchased prior to 1968 “fly under the radar’” so to speak (we all know someone who has an old firearm around that was left to them by a relative—many of which are in the hands of “gun owners” who don’t even know what a FID card is).

 

And further still, although there are “gun nuts” like you and me who buy a half-dozen guns a year, the vast majority (based on my 30 years as a trainer, and the knowledge I’ve acquired from the dozens of retailers I’m intimately familiar with) the average person buys a gun, and then puts it in his or her nightstand where it will sit for decades collecting dust.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for the reply Anthony.

 

A tally of FID holders would be a start. I suspect only a certain audience has access to that data. NICS purchases are a weak measure of buyers but the numbers are still very low annually compared to other states. I suspect too the arduous process of an FID & PPP are determining factors which purposely limit purchases.

[PDM 91]

I put a small NRA sticker in my back windshield a couple of years ago. My car has been keyed -- twice -- since then. Even though it never happened to me before, the first time I thought it was just stupid kids, but after the second time I realized that it is probably the sticker. Oh how I wish I had caught them in the act. Actually, probably better that I didn't because there is a good chance that the encounter wouldn't have ended peacefully. Funny how anti-gun activists paint gun owners as paranoid and violent. In my experience, it is the "other side" that fits that bill for the most part. Since becoming a gun owner 4 years ago, I gradually came to realize that the gun owners I meet at the range, in training classes, in meetings of 2A groups, etc., are some of the nicest, most decent people around. Black, white, Jewish, Christian, white collar, blue collar, it hasn't mattered. It's been great to see people from different walks of life coming together for a common cause and exhibiting some good old fashioned patriotism to boot.

 

As for the OP's question, I came out of the closet gradually. At first I got snide comments and a few nasty remarks from a few people at my synagogue, but none of those people was actually interested in having an intelligent discussion on the topic. I am pretty moderate and open minded, but no one even tried to engage in a conversation -- only snide remarks and jokes. I found that quite telling. Now, I really couldn't give two sh**ts what anyone thinks about it.

[djg0770 481]

I don't do stickers on my cars. I did that back in high school for a local radio station, after a few weeks it got old and I scraped it off the chrome bumper (yeah, I'm that old).

 

Those who know me long enough, know about my proclivities toward firearms.

 

I find it telling that depending WHERE you grew up in this luscious garden state has a great deal to do with your attitude toward firearms. For instance, if you grew up in Morris, Warren, Sussex or Hunterdon, chances are great that you have no problem with people owning guns whether you do or not. Being that I grew up in the northwest portion of NJ, I can speak from experience here. I have no clue what goes on in Central and Southern NJ though.

[djg0770 481]

I defer to the three pages of discussion on this topic for both sides of the argument.

 

Defer and discuss all you want. This issue is crystal clear to me. Any lawyer who makes it out to be any different is looking for a payday IMO. Anyone else must decide for themselves whether they feel they are on the right side of the law or not. To bastardize my buddy Joshua "As for me and my house, we will shoot when necessary".

[Dan 177]

Defer and discuss all you want.

 

Thanks, I will.

[djg0770 481]

Nevermind the closet gun owners - how about we stop shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to questionable parts of the law such as traveling with loaded mags, owning hollow points, not letting our wife use our gun for self defense, etc. We do more as gun owners to make these already egregious NJ gun laws even more onerous for absolutely no reason at all.

 

Frankly, I think we should ally ourselves with "the GLBT community" - they should be armed as they are often the target of violence, and we should learn a few things about how to be a vocal minority and come out of the closet.