Why No On Invades Switzerland

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Interesting clip on Switzerland's ability to muster a "citizens" army. I wish my government would pay for my ammo!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ufkwTM82e4

 

"Switzerland has the lowest crime rate in the world,because the people are armed,basic military is mandatory for men,and after wards they are required to keep their weapon at home.A crook will think twice about breaking into houses knowing this,people who think the world should get rid rid of guns should think again."

[Kaiser7 33]

Hmm... I believe the Nazis did, however, the information speaks for itself, I suppose Switzerland would therefore have the least restrictive gun laws in Europe? I mean, if they basically issue all men a HK assault rifle...

[Malsua 1,422]

Love the stickers in the gun cabinet, some I've seen before. I'm sort of surprised that a Swiss resident would have english stickers. Also Europe has a much different take on supressors, they use them to prevent hearing loss rather than criminalizing them.

 

"Never mind the dog, beware the owner"

"Fight Crime, SHOOT BACK"

"Where has a gun law reduced crime"

"Punish criminals, not gun owners"

[Duppie 73]

Hmm... I believe the Nazis did, however, the information speaks for itself, I suppose Switzerland would therefore have the least restrictive gun laws in Europe? I mean, if they basically issue all men a HK assault rifle...

Hmm..no.Switzerland,Sweden and Denmark remained neutral in that part of the world even though Denmark was occupied and formed a resistance.

[Dan 177]

AFAIK , they can have the military gun, but not the ammo. If you can't ban one, ban the other. When they go to the target range, they can buy govt subsidized ammo there, but they must use it all before they go home. When they mobilize for war, they have to go to a local depot to pick up ammo. Only a small percentage of "first responders" are permitted to keep the formerly customary 50 rounds of ammo in their home along with the rifle. Buying military ammo has rules associated with it, and has to be registered when being purchased at a store.

 

http://concealed.wordpress.com/2007/10/27/switzerland-strips-all-citizens-of-gun-rights/

[Duppie 73]

AFAIK , they can have the military gun, but not the ammo. If you can't ban one, ban the other. When they go to the target range, they can buy govt subsidized ammo there, but they must use it all before they go home. When they mobilize for war, they have to go to a local depot to pick up ammo. Only a small percentage of "first responders" are permitted to keep the formerly customary 50 rounds of ammo in their home along with the rifle. Buying military ammo has rules associated with it, and has to be registered when being purchased at a store.

 

http://concealed.wor...-of-gun-rights/

It's basically the same in Norway where you have to take home your rifle and side arm but the Obermeister of the district holds the firing pins.

[TheWombat 67]

It's Interesting in comparing countries. As I've lived in Switzerland, USA, UK, Sweden, Australia and visited a fair few other place here are my thoughts (and I could be wrong!)

 

1. I believe Switzerland has had stronger immigration laws than many western countries which means that they have less of the population diversity as some other countries, they have also not taken 'political correctness' as far as other countries. However the non-Swiss population is now increasing (about 20% IIRC) and they are beginning to see issues.

 

2. The mindset of the Swiss is quite different to the mindset of the US (for good or bad!). While both have firearms, the mindset is different. The Swiss population also has national service and a much smaller population ~7.7M v 312M. Few civilians in Switzerland actually have a permit to carry - in that way it is a little like New Jersey :-).

 

http://en.wikipedia...._in_Switzerland

 

3. There are countries with strong gun laws (e.g. Germany) with comparatively low crime rates. Hence gun restriction/allowance in itself is not necessarily an indicator for possible crime rate.

 

4. A bigger issue for the US (in my view) is the number of guns already here and hence legislation is going to limit further ownership is going to have limited benefit. Criminals have fairly easy access to guns either through burglaries, or from black market or across the border.

 

 

Re crime stats from Wikipedia for Switzerland: The police registered a total of 553,421 criminal offences in 2009, including 51 killings and 185 attempted murders. There were 666 cases of rape. In the same year, 94,574 adults (85% of them male, 47.4% of them Swiss citizens) were convicted under criminal law. 57.3% of convictions were for traffic offences. The population in 2009 was around 7.7 million.

 

Assuming a population in the USA of 312 million then the equivalent number of killings in the US would be 2066 if we pro-rate the Swiss killings/population. I think the actual US murder/killing number was significantly higher although I'm not sure if it is an apples for apples comparison?

 

As ever stats can be questioned, however interesting to look at the 2000s table on this Wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia....l_homicide_rate

http://en.wikipedia....y_gun_ownership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime

 

5. Switzerland is surrounded by mountains with very few passes across them, hence strategically it is easy to defend and doesn't have much value for the attacker.

 

Whether pro-gun or anti-gun, I don't believe comparing Switzerland and the US provides insight to either side of the argument as there are too many different factors.

 

hth

 

TheWombat

[Geek 4]

The best example is Finland. Basically the same deal with every adult male in the reserves and keeping their weapon at home. Only one country ever tried to invade them. That was Russia in 1940. The Finns killed 1 million Russians before Stalin had to throw in the towel. No one has been stupid enough to try it since. I believe no one has invaded Switerland in something like 400 years.

[SpacemanFry 51]

Not going to get into the whole gun control / crime etc BS....

 

But as to Switzerland not being conquered, there are several factors at play. The most important is the terrain which is heavily mountainous with lots of narrow and precarious passes and quite heavily forested (used to be anyway). Then they have mandatory military service where they specifically train at a much higher degree of marksmanship than an average army. The Swiss are also very accomplished engineers and have had hundreds of years to build significant fortifications and tunnels through the mountains. And also the Swiss are very good about maintaining neutrality and have a long history of it, thus making themselves less of a threat.

[Soju 153]

I've been strongly considering moving to Scandinavia or Switzerland in a few years but it has nothing to do with gun laws.

[Underdog 1,593]

The Swiss also control a lot of wealth and even the rogue countries need a neutral place to hide wealth.

[Melgamatic 66]

I've been strongly considering moving to Scandinavia or Switzerland in a few years but it has nothing to do with gun laws.

 

That's good, because all the Scandinavian countries have much, much stricter gun laws than we'll ever see, even in NJ.

[The_Matrix 105]

I've been strongly considering moving to Scandinavia or Switzerland in a few years but it has nothing to do with gun laws.

 

For the chicks?

[Soju 153]

Well that isn't a primary factor, but it doesn't hurt! When I was in Switzerland the other month, I strongly remember two things. The chocolate and the women, mmmmm.....

[Gorilla800lbs 12]

Low crime rates have nothing to do with government issued firearms (as both guns and ammo must be kept sealed), and are mostly attributable to high per-capita GDP/median family income, good education system, socially homogenous system, and so on. Also, I am not convinced that widespread availability of small arms materiel (or even the populace that is proficient with it) would really help Switzerland in case of a full-on invasion by a modern military force.

[SpacemanFry 51]

Low crime rates have nothing to do with government issued firearms (as both guns and ammo must be kept sealed), and are mostly attributable to high per-capita GDP/median family income, good education system, socially homogenous system, and so on. Also, I am not convinced that widespread availability of small arms materiel (or even the populace that is proficient with it) would really help Switzerland in case of a full-on invasion by a modern military force.

 

You don't have to be convinced of it as long as anybody ever considering it is convinced of it. Just out of curiosity, short of nuking them what exactly do you think a full on invasion by a modern military force would do in a country that has a terrain more forbidding than Afghanistan with people that are actually militarily trained marksmen and has mountain bunkers full of their own modern military equipment? Besides, what would be the purpose. Not like there are any natural resources worth fighting over.

[HKHockey 5]

I think what alot of people do not know is that the Swiss inherit a rich military history dating to the days of the pike. The Swiss were one of the most formidable mercenary forces for a good many years before the advent of the modern firearms.

[Duppie 73]

I've been strongly considering moving to Scandinavia or Switzerland in a few years but it has nothing to do with gun laws.

I did for 2 years and I'm back....After the initial "Wow, this is cool" it dawns on you just how good we've got it in the States.I guess the one thing I hated the most was being put in the position of having to defend America and her policies every time the overly polite Scandinavians had too much to drink and the facade dropped away. That frequently included "your country's irrational romance with guns"

[Geek 4]

I did for 2 years and I'm back....After the initial "Wow, this is cool" it dawns on you just how good we've got it in the States.I guess the one thing I hated the most was being put in the position of having to defend America and her policies every time the overly polite Scandinavians had too much to drink and the facade dropped away. That included "your country's irrational romance with guns"

 

I never got any of that in Finland. If you are in that area again, you might want to check out Helsinki. Wonderful place and wonderful people,

[Duppie 73]

I never got any of that in Finland. If you are in that area again, you might want to check out Helsinki. Wonderful place and wonderful people,

They weren't drunk enough. I've been to Helsinki several times, nice but I like the lake country instead. The Finns are very unique in the fact that they are essentially reinventing themselves after all the years of being an annex of Sweden and Russia.

[Kaiser7 33]

I think what alot of people do not know is that the Swiss inherit a rich military history dating to the days of the pike. The Swiss were one of the most formidable mercenary forces for a good many years before the advent of the modern firearms.

 

Very true. Being a Catholic gun lover, I was surprised to find out the Swiss guard (The pope's "army") aren't just ceremonial pikemen. They actually are exceptional marksmen, and are armed with some pretty impressive firepower, including IIRC the MG4, MP7, and some other stuff (I forget their primary rifle.) But as the name would imply, they are entirely taken from Switzerland. I believe they are provided by the Swiss army.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Very true. Being a Catholic gun lover, I was surprised to find out the Swiss guard (The pope's "army") aren't just ceremonial pikemen. They actually are exceptional marksmen, and are armed with some pretty impressive firepower, including IIRC the MG4, MP7, and some other stuff (I forget their primary rifle.) But as the name would imply, they are entirely taken from Switzerland. I believe they are provided by the Swiss army.

 

They have to be, they are protecting what is most likely the largest stash of gold, art work, and historic relics known (and unknown) to man. It's too bad they won't let the general public see or appreciate most of it.

[Midwest 28]

While Switzerland is talked about with regards to gun rights in Europe. There is also the Czech Republic....which would almost rival Switzerland and maybe better than some U.S. States!

 

 

http://en.wikipedia...._Czech_Republic

 

 

"Firearms in the Czech Republic are available to anybody without a criminal record and aged above 18 (or 21 for certain license categories). Self-defense is an acceptable justification to obtain a firearms license. The Czech gun laws also permits a citizen to carry a concealed weapon without having to specify a reason."

 

 

"Among popular guns is Vz. 58. While the full automatic version requires exemption by police, which is rarely given (for example in case of extremely dangerous occupation like transporting large sums of money), the semi automatic version can be easily legally obtained."

 

 

There are requirements for qualification and background checks and clearances. There is a fee as well as several tiers of license categories. There are hoops to jump through...but..

[SpacemanFry 51]

While Switzerland is talked about with regards to gun rights. There is also the Czech Republic....which would almost rival Switzerland.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia...._Czech_Republic

 

 

"Firearms in the Czech Republic are available to anybody without a criminal record and aged above 18 (or 21 for certain license categories). Self-defense is an acceptable justification to obtain a firearms license. The Czech gun laws also permits a citizen to carry a concealed weapon without having to specify a reason."

 

 

"Among popular guns is Vz. 58. While the full automatic version requires exemption by police, which is rarely given (for example in case of extremely dangerous occupation like transporting large sums of money), the semi automatic version can be easily legally obtained."

 

 

There are requirements for qualification and background checks and clearances. There is a fee as well as several tiers of license catagories.

 

I've always like the Czechs. Amazing engineers and architects, and they were one of the few countries behind the Iron Curtain to occasionally stand up to the Soviets.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

The reason no one invades Switzerland? Because everyone keeps their own money there.

[ExpendableRaj 1]

The reason no one invades Switzerland? Because everyone keeps their own money there.

 

Thank you. This cheesy bs video surfaces on the gun boards every so often and every loves to marvel in the little fantasy that the Swiss are so free and neutral because they own a rifle.

 

Like Devs said, the Nazis never bothered the Swiss because half of them had their personal fortunes in Swiss banks, not to mention the Swiss let them use all their railways too. Why even bother invading them? Everyone from crooked American politicians to Gaddafi has/had their money sitting in Swiss banks. That certainly helps them be "neutral"

 

Next up is the ugly fact no one likes to talk about - the Swiss are all white people with mostly the same religion and income in a country with less than 1/40th of our population. It's a lot different here with 300 million people of all races and income ranging from lifetime welfare to mansion in the Hamptons. Switzerland has gone so far as to recently ban parapets on Mosques. Sad but true, there's a lot less crime in a racially homogenous society. Sorry.

 

Why do you think the crime rates are high in cities compared to little towns? A million people ranging from bums to executives, of all different races, piled on top of each other versus a couple hundred people of the same ethnic/religious background in a spacious country setting.

[SW9racer 262]

They have to be, they are protecting what is most likely the largest stash of gold, art work, and historic relics known (and unknown) to man. It's too bad they won't let the general public see or appreciate most of it.

 

And the cheese, don't forget the cheese

[SpacemanFry 51]

Thank you. This cheesy bs video surfaces on the gun boards every so often and every loves to marvel in the little fantasy that the Swiss are so free and neutral because they own a rifle.

 

Like Devs said, the Nazis never bothered the Swiss because half of them had their personal fortunes in Swiss banks, not to mention the Swiss let them use all their railways too. Why even bother invading them? Everyone from crooked American politicians to Gaddafi has/had their money sitting in Swiss banks. That certainly helps them be "neutral"

 

Next up is the ugly fact no one likes to talk about - the Swiss are all white people with mostly the same religion and income in a country with less than 1/40th of our population. It's a lot different here with 300 million people of all races and income ranging from lifetime welfare to mansion in the Hamptons. Switzerland has gone so far as to recently ban parapets on Mosques. Sad but true, there's a lot less crime in a racially homogenous society. Sorry.

 

Why do you think the crime rates are high in cities compared to little towns? A million people ranging from bums to executives, of all different races, piled on top of each other versus a couple hundred people of the same ethnic/religious background in a spacious country setting.

 

Fail to see what crime rate has to do with invading them. Yes some people have made the jump from one to the other (incorrectly) but that's not the title of the thread now is it.

 

Look it up, but in WW2 Swiss pilots shot down quite a few German fighters that invaded their airspace chasing after allied planes. Yes the gold stashing helped, but why bother paying a bank to stash it if you could invade it. There is also documented proof that Hitler asked his generals about invading Switzerland and was told the cost would be too high. The Swiss did not allow German troops to go through their country (other than the ones making deposits I guess )

[GiantsFan 22]

At 2:56 (near the very end)

 

"The keys to FREEDOM is the ability to defend yourself - otherwise you are at the mercy of whomever wants to put you away"

 

What a relevant statement that is!

[Damjan 73]

 

. Yes the gold stashing helped, but why bother paying a bank to stash it if you could invade it.

There is also documented proof that Hitler asked his generals about invading Switzerland and was told the cost would be too high. The Swiss did not allow German troops to go through their country (other than the ones making deposits I guess )

 

They stashed someone else`s gold there: Here is a nice text

 

 

 

From the Business Guide,

http://www.isyours.com/e/swiss-business-guide/wwii.html

 

 

No European country remained truly neutral during WWII.

Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland all worked to some extent with the Axis.

In Switzerland, the people who lived through the war wanted to believe that it was their army and fortifications that kept the Nazis out.

Historical research and documents clearly show that if the Nazis wanted to invade Switzerland, it would have been quick and relatively easy.

 

The reason Germany spared its tiny neighbor to the south was because Switzerland proved much more useful as an independent state than as a satellite.

The Swiss made many useful weapon components (aluminium for the Luftwaffe, spark plugs for jeeps taken from the Russians, timing devices for bombs, among other things), and thus their factories were not bombed every night.

The Swiss National bank bought gold from the Reichsbank, the Reichsbank was given Swiss francs in exchange, and used them to buy cobalt, nickel and tungsten from the other “neutral” countries.

The Turks, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish, who were all under heavy pressure from the Allies not to accept direct gold payment from the Reichsbank, then exchanged the Swiss francs for gold.

 

The problem was that the German gold came from the Belgian National bank reserves (not from concentration camps as some sensationalists would have it) and the neutrals knew it.

Finally, the Swiss allowed trains to carry food and non-weapon supplies from Germany to Italy, with dozens of trains every day on their way to Africa.

 

But did Switzerland have any other choice? Probably not.

 

Totally surrounded by the Axis, most of its coal supply came from Germany every week, and all of its exports had to go through Axis controlled territory.

 

For a landlocked country with no natural resources, this meant the Swiss had to work out some form of accomodation with their neighbors.

 

The problem is that the postwar generations have been raised to believe that it was the Swiss army, and not the country’s usefulness to the Germans, that protected it from the wrath of war.

 

The Swiss are now coming to terms with this part of their history, as for example the people of France and Japan have.

 

As a foreigner, it is best to avoid passing judgment on them and giving lessons, at the risk of offending your hosts.