GiantsFan 22 Posted January 6, 2012 Here's where I'm confused: I have a range bag. My weapons will be in the main compartment and secured with a padlock. It will also be placed in the trunk of my car. The question I have is about the ammo. Outside the main compartment I have storage sleeves built in for magazines which will be transported empty, so no issue there. However, the ammo itself will be inside the main compartment of the bag where the guns are secured. (Both behind a padlock and in the trunk.) Is that acceptable under NJ law? Or must the ammo be locked in a separate compartment from the guns? I've heard conflicting thought on this and know this is the best place to get a definitive answer. Thanks in advance, -------------------------------------- Q2 as an after-thought. Since my magazines are in another compartment of the bag and can be locked securely all by themself, is it permissible to transport those same magazines already loaded? Q3 Do plastic zip ties really qualify as being secured in place of a padlock? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted January 6, 2012 Gun unloaded in the trunk, no locks are needed unless you are in a vehicle that doesn't have a trunk. Oh and loaded mags are not a loaded gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GiantsFan 22 Posted January 6, 2012 And before anyone asks, YES I did read through this thread as well as several of the sub-threads too about this topic and there seems to be quite a broad spectrum of interpretation of the laws. (especially so for transportation of loaded magazines.) Good reading though.. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29389-nj-law-summary-read-first-nj-gun-law-faqs/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted January 6, 2012 And before anyone asks, YES I did read through this thread as well as several of the sub-threads too about this topic and there seems to be quite a broad spectrum of interpretation of the laws. (especially so for transportation of loaded magazines.) Good reading though.. http://njgunforums.c...j-gun-law-faqs/ Interpretations are not the law, guidelines are not the law either. Keep that in mind when you are reading through all of the threads as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GiantsFan 22 Posted January 6, 2012 Interpretations are not the law, guidelines are not the law either. Keep that in mind when you are reading through all of the threads as well. Believe it or not I do. I'm not seeking out interpretations or opinions, I myself want to know the FACTS. Because like you, I agree that otherwise all we do is to "water down" our RIGHTS under the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RecessedFilter 222 Posted January 6, 2012 Technically, your ammo is separated from the guns through a zipper it sounds like? So you should be fine. But in all honesty, just make sure everything is cased up in your trunk and your guns are legal and HP's aren't floating around on your seats and in your cupholders. I think people worry way too much about some things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GiantsFan 22 Posted January 6, 2012 Technically, your ammo is separated from the guns through a zipper it sounds like? So you should be fine. But in all honesty, just make sure everything is cased up in your trunk and your guns are legal and HP's aren't floating around on your seats and in your cupholders. I think people worry way too much about some things. Well the whole point is to learn the law and the facts, so you DON'T have to worry, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RecessedFilter 222 Posted January 6, 2012 Well the whole point is to learn the law and the facts, so you DON'T have to worry, right? Yes I agree, but with something like transportation, I think people get very anxious over it. Separate your guns and ammo, case the guns, try to obey the law when you drive and you will be fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 6, 2012 the LAW does not require the ammo to be separate.. THIS is the law.. literally.. unloaded.. in the trunk OR in a secured container.. that is what the law stipulates... EVERYTHING else is fluff and interpretation... destination is relevant as well but not really to your question.. How To Transport Unloaded: The firearm must be unloaded, as in there must be no ammunition in the gun. NJ defines the word firearm meaning the actual gun, under current law transportation of a loaded magazine would not be considered a loaded gun Cased/Wrapped: If the vehicle has a defined trunk separate from the passenger compartment, the firearms are to put in the trunk. If no trunk is present (as in a SUV) the firearm must be in a fastened case/wrapped/etc. Destination: It is important to recognize that NJ dictates that your course of travel while transporting firearms should be as direct as is reasonably possible. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qel Hoth 33 Posted January 7, 2012 How To Transport Cased/Wrapped: If the vehicle has a defined trunk separate from the passenger compartment, the firearms are to put in the trunk. If no trunk is present (as in a SUV) the firearm must be in a fastened case/wrapped/etc. While this is not a bad idea, the law does not specifically require it. 2C:39-6g All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. Under the law, it would be perfectly legal to have an unloaded weapon (with ammo in the case/magazine, but not in the chamber and the magazine not in the weapon). Hell, you could have a handgun in a locked case between your knees if you want. As always, not legal advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wildbob 14 Posted January 7, 2012 Where does it say that the case has to be locked? Mine is always fastened. It is seldom locked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted January 7, 2012 Where does it say that the case has to be locked? Mine is always fastened. It is seldom locked. It doesn't, In a trunk it doesn't need to be locked, however in a vehicle like a SUV or Pickup when it's in the same cabin as the driver it needs to be locked.. Correction: How To Transport Unloaded: The firearm must be unloaded, as in there must be no ammunition in the gun. NJ defines the word firearm meaning the actual gun, under current law transportation of a loaded magazine would not be considered a loaded gun Cased/Wrapped: If the vehicle has a defined trunk separate from the passenger compartment, the firearms are to put in the trunk. If no trunk is present (as in a SUV) the firearm must be in a fastened case/wrapped/etc. Destination: It is important to recognize that NJ dictates that your course of travel while transporting firearms should be as direct as is reasonably possible. Quote g. All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,138 Posted January 7, 2012 It doesn't, In a trunk it doesn't need to be locked, however in a vehicle like a SUV or Pickup when it's in the same cabin as the driver it needs to be locked.. Show me where it says that. The term "locked" isnt there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted January 7, 2012 Show me where it says that. The term "locked" isnt there. You are right, Corrected origional post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GiantsFan 22 Posted January 7, 2012 By reading the law, doesn't it seem to imply that if you have a trunk, the guns must be placed there and only if a separate trunk is not available (SUV etc) then the other is acceptable? Sounds to me that if you have a trunk, thats where they want you to trasport your guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malsua 1,422 Posted January 7, 2012 By reading the law, doesn't it seem to imply that if you have a trunk, the guns must be placed there and only if a separate trunk is not available (SUV etc) then the other is acceptable? Sounds to me that if you have a trunk, thats where they want you to trasport your guns. The law is one thing, the NJ state police have slightly different interpretation. If you follow what is on the NJSP website, you are least likely to have any of this become an issue. The statutes do not say locks in an open compartment vehicle. The NJSP say use locks in an open compartment vehicle. Which interpretation is most likely to result in you being sent on your way at a MV stop? While the first may exonerate you in court, your goal is to stay out of court. Personally, when I had an SUV, I never locked them in the back. I just pulled the privacy shade over it. As a note, FOPA DOES REQUIRE locks in open compartment vehicles. If you are anywhere in which you are relying on FOPA laws to protect you the firearms must be inaccessible and in the case of open compartment vehicles, LOCKED. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wildbob 14 Posted January 7, 2012 Yep. That's why I wrote "seldom locked". Just for FOPA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 7, 2012 By reading the law, doesn't it seem to imply that if you have a trunk, the guns must be placed there and only if a separate trunk is not available (SUV etc) then the other is acceptable? Sounds to me that if you have a trunk, thats where they want you to trasport your guns. no.. that is why it says OR.. as in do one or the other... one of our cars is a convertible.. it DOES have a trunk.. but at least one long gun case does not fit in said trunk.. so it goes on the back seat.. in a case... perfectly legal IMO.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AsilAnne 0 Posted January 8, 2012 As a brand new gun owner and owner of an SUV, I also had the same question. Here's a Q&A from the NJ State Police site: http://www.njsp.org/...t/firearms.html Q6. How do you transport firearms? A6. Firearms shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported. Ammunition must be transported in a separate container and locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported.If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console. I transport the gun in the rear-most section of the truck in a locked gun case with a lock on the gun also (the second lock on the gun is MY choice and preference). I keep the ammo in my range bag (a backpack) and throw that back there with the gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malsua 1,422 Posted January 8, 2012 As a brand new gun owner and owner of an SUV, I also had the same question. Here's a Q&A from the NJ State Police site: http://www.njsp.org/...t/firearms.html I transport the gun in the rear-most section of the truck in a locked gun case with a lock on the gun also (the second lock on the gun is MY choice and preference). I keep the ammo in my range bag (a backpack) and throw that back there with the gun. If you notice my post, I refer to this conflict. The statutes DO NOT mention locks. The NJSP website is their guideline, it is not law. What they did was borrow the language for the FOPA guidelines and post them on their site. This is not to suggest I think it's a bad idea, it's just not law however. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 264 Posted January 8, 2012 As a brand new gun owner and owner of an SUV, I also had the same question. Here's a Q&A from the NJ State Police site: http://www.njsp.org/...t/firearms.html I transport the gun in the rear-most section of the truck in a locked gun case with a lock on the gun also (the second lock on the gun is MY choice and preference). I keep the ammo in my range bag (a backpack) and throw that back there with the gun. That is the NJSP's recommendation, but not per the law as was quoted above. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybirdtke 13 Posted January 9, 2012 "Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered." http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=59 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 9, 2012 "Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered." http://www.nraila.or...read.aspx?id=59 why are you quoting the laws fro transporting from one state to another? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted January 9, 2012 I look at it this way; why chance it. I have a pickup and every time I transport all cases are locked with a lock. Eliminates grey areas. I am a LEO and I do this just because the law is ambiguous. Call me paranoid but that just me being overly cautious Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qel Hoth 33 Posted January 9, 2012 I look at it this way; why chance it. I have a pickup and every time I transport all cases are locked with a lock. Eliminates grey areas. I am a LEO and I do this just because the law is ambiguous. Call me paranoid but that just me being overly cautious I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. In this instance, the law is most certainly not ambiguous. 2C:39-6g All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. Assuming intrastate transport, FOPA is irrelavent. The firearm must only be carried in a closed and fastened case, not a locked case, to satisfy the requirements to be transported in the passenger compartment of a vehicle. State police/AG interpretation is NOT law. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 9, 2012 I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. In this instance, the law is most certainly not ambiguous. [/size] Assuming intrastate transport, FOPA is irrelavent. The firearm must only be carried in a closed and fastened case, not a locked case, to satisfy the requirements to be transported in the passenger compartment of a vehicle. State police/AG interpretation is NOT law. +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted January 9, 2012 I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. In this instance, the law is most certainly not ambiguous. [/size] Assuming intrastate transport, FOPA is irrelavent. The firearm must only be carried in a closed and fastened case, not a locked case, to satisfy the requirements to be transported in the passenger compartment of a vehicle. State police/AG interpretation is NOT law. And once again... to clarify.... there is the law, and there is best practice. There is what is legal as defined under the statutes, and then there is all the administrative codes, and then the interpretations by the state police... so even though you are right under the law, do you have free time to go to courts to explain it to the judge? This all goes back to being right, or being effective. Much like, you can legally fly out of NYC Laguardia or JFK with a handgun, (FOPA), but do you really feel like spinning the dice on if you are going to get arrested by PANYNJ cops for illegal possession in NYC as you check in for your flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted January 9, 2012 And once again... to clarify.... there is the law, and there is best practice. There is what is legal as defined under the statutes, and then there is all the administrative codes, and then the interpretations by the state police... so even though you are right under the law, do you have free time to go to courts to explain it to the judge? This all goes back to being right, or being effective. Much like, you can legally fly out of NYC Laguardia or JFK with a handgun, (FOPA), but do you really feel like spinning the dice on if you are going to get arrested by PANYNJ cops for illegal possession in NYC as you check in for your flight. if the law is clear (transport in trunk OR fastened case/tied/wrapped/etc..) then I do EXACTLY what the law asks of me.... if the law is vague (the legality of certain BB guns for example) I err on the side of caution... I think it is just fine to transport how you want (within the law).. but what is REQUIRED is pretty clear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qel Hoth 33 Posted January 9, 2012 And once again... to clarify.... there is the law, and there is best practice. There is what is legal as defined under the statutes, and then there is all the administrative codes, and then the interpretations by the state police... so even though you are right under the law, do you have free time to go to courts to explain it to the judge? This all goes back to being right, or being effective. Much like, you can legally fly out of NYC Laguardia or JFK with a handgun, (FOPA), but do you really feel like spinning the dice on if you are going to get arrested by PANYNJ cops for illegal possession in NYC as you check in for your flight. I never said that you can't use a lock, or even that using one was a bad idea. Simply that the law only requires a closed and fastened case. In an ideal world, it would never result in an arrest, or even questioning by an officer, since they should know the law. However, I acknowledge that police officers are human and can't possibly know every statute. If an officer is in a situation where s/he is not 100% sure than a person is in violation of a statute, they should not cite/arrest. Even if it does make it to the prosecutor, that is why the prosecutor's office has lawyers and paralegals. If the arrest report states a violation of 2C:39-6g, and the officer's narrative states that the weapon was found in a closed and fastened case, there is nothing for a judge to rule on. There is no need for a trial, there is no evidence to support a violation of 2C:39-6g. Also, if I recall correctly, NJ requires a grand jury to indict for a 2nd degree offense. There should be no indictment because there is no eveidence of a violation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted January 9, 2012 When it states fastened that could have different meanings to different people. Some might consider fastened with a lock. Do whatever you want. I do it that way because it is easy enough and not really a big deal to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites