Cops shoot (and Kill) window smasher in Cali (With Video)

[Jon 264]

Smokin50, I'm not going to quote your posts as they are very long, but just want to point out a few things...

Beanbag rounds are NOT non-lethal, they are LESS-lethal, as are tasers. They fit into the same criteria, as you can be killed by both, though the chances are far less. Also, a taser does NOT need both prongs to hit in order to deliver a shock. I do believe the amount of the shock is less if only one hits, though. With that being said, due to this guy having zero response to the taser, I highly doubt OC spray would have done a thing, either.

Going back to the shotgun w/ beanbag round... first he needed to have a shotty in the car(not all cops do), had less-lethal ammo in the car(again, not all do), unloaded a round from the tube, loaded the less-lethal round, hit the BG with it, rack the slide, and be ready to pull the trigger again before the BG got close enough to damage with his pipe bender. I know most people seem to feel like racking a pump gun takes no time whatsoever, but if you do any force-on force training, you'll realize just how long it takes to rack that thing under stress.

 

Chuckdeez..

I invite you to take a handgun to a private range with a shot timer, and see just how fast you can dump 5-10 rounds downrange. I'd be willing to bet you can unload 5+ rounds in less time than it would take you to fall to the ground. I would recommend you do some force on force training as well, to really understand how things speed up under stress.

[chuckdeez 9]

I would have loved to have seen what YOU would've done if you and a loved one where there.

 

Presumably in your hypothetical scenario, I'm a regular guy at my local fast food place with my family, Im lucky enough to CCW, and unlucky enough to run across this guy who raises a pipe bender to my head. Yes, Im absolutely shooting him.

 

But what actually happened, was these are TWO trained LEO, with nonlethal options, a k9, no potential victim in immediate jeapordy, and what appears to be a decent amount of time to possibly have set up their positions a bit more tactically so that their best option wasnt 10 rounds point blank against a dude with no gun.

 

Im not going to defend my position anymore. I realize Im in the minority, and many of you appear ok with this kind of policing in your community. If I offended anyone with my initial comments that I deleted, than I apologize. They were deleted for a reason.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

But what actually happened, was these are TWO trained LEO, with nonlethal options, a k9, no potential victim in immediate jeapordy, and what appears to be a decent amount of time to possibly have set up their positions a bit more tactically so that their best option wasnt 10 rounds point blank against a dude with no gun.

 

Decent amount of time? The time he took to wind up and swing is less than 1 second. He was still up and moving after the first 5 shots.

 

Just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean you're not armed and dangerous.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Smokin50, I'm not going to quote your posts as they are very long, but just want to point out a few things...

Beanbag rounds are NOT non-lethal, they are LESS-lethal, as are tasers. They fit into the same criteria, as you can be killed by both, though the chances are far less. Also, a taser does NOT need both prongs to hit in order to deliver a shock. I do believe the amount of the shock is less if only one hits, though. With that being said, due to this guy having zero response to the taser, I highly doubt OC spray would have done a thing, either.

Going back to the shotgun w/ beanbag round... first he needed to have a shotty in the car(not all cops do), had less-lethal ammo in the car(again, not all do), unloaded a round from the tube, loaded the less-lethal round, hit the BG with it, rack the slide, and be ready to pull the trigger again before the BG got close enough to damage with his pipe bender. I know most people seem to feel like racking a pump gun takes no time whatsoever, but if you do any force-on force training, you'll realize just how long it takes to rack that thing under stress.

 

Chuckdeez..

I invite you to take a handgun to a private range with a shot timer, and see just how fast you can dump 5-10 rounds downrange. I'd be willing to bet you can unload 5+ rounds in less time than it would take you to fall to the ground. I would recommend you do some force on force training as well, to really understand how things speed up under stress.

 

Jon I stand corrected on the term "Less Lethal".

 

My premise and reason for posting what I have up to now is merely to outline the ineffectiveness of an expensive weapons system and how the use of such system actually contributed to putting an officer in more danger than was necessary given the situation, the amount of Police on the scene, and the timing waiting for the Perp to exit the building. As we all know the spray doesn't require a Cop to use two hands AND to deploy it point blank thereby causing such vulnerability with the outcome that transpired. As to whether or not the spray would have been effective, we'll never know. To indicate otherwise is just pure conjecture. As to whether or not a 12 ga. with a bean bag was available, who knows--probably NOT! Too "old school", and NOT PC enough I guess! Because of all of the money spent on the equipment & training for the taser, most departments "put all of their eggs in one basket" and rely upon this expensive weapons system that has been proven time & time again to be utterly ineffective. Taser Cop could have sprayed him from a greater distance and K-9 could have let the dog do the work, no shotgun required (OR taser). That's my point: No extreme vulnerability required to deploy "Less Lethal" means of obtaining a conclusion to hostilities. It's still a "righteous shoot" BUT...This video clip will be used to show what NOT to do with a taser, and why, for years to come.

 

As to whether or not Cops can stroke a pump as good as me, I hope so. I'm no Tom Knapp, but I can hold my own! Mind you, I'm not dismissing the stress or the pressure of the situation, but if this went down the way I'm thinking it did and other Cops were already on the scene (see video), in the time it took to get the dog out of the car or SUV, ONE of the Cops on the scene could have stroked-in a bean bag round IF THEY HAD THEM! Chances are because this department relies on the taser, the bean-bags weren't available.

[Zell959 40]

Did the police get too close to the perp? Once they got inside his swinging radius and the taser didn't work they were left having to shoot him or tackle him. The dog seemed to be in the way and took K9 cop's ability to tackle away.

 

I had the same thought. The officer that deplyed the taser unsuccessfully seemed to make it a point to keep inching towards the moving perp while he was looking down at his belt/gear. He may have thought that the window smasher wasn't likely to move in his direction/attack. Probably a really easy mistake to make in a tense situation like that. Really an amazing job by his partner to watch his back despite the handicap of also handling the dog.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yes, I did indeed write F pigs. I deleted it once I realized that Im in the minority here, seeing as everyone was pretty stoked to watch this guy get lit up by 8-10 shots, half of which were on his way down. Where did the rest of those shots go? Bet they all didnt land where they were supposed to. What about the public at large, yknow, who these guys get paid well to protect and serve? Were they best served by these cops lighting up the street to take down some guy at point blank distance when they had other tools at their disposal? Yes, I agree that it looks like they 'tried' pepper spray or whatever. Maybe if they didnt suck at their jobs they couldve taken this guy down without 10 rounds at point blank range. It seemed excessive, especially when cop #2 opened up. Yes, I agree that I wasn't there blah blah. This video has 4 pages of hindsight analysis but mine is "wrong"? Lunatic cops are just as scary as punks with crowbars. Worse. Ohio CCW video? Whatever, its just my opinion. Im the only one here who ever made a blanket statement about a group of people based on the bad actions of a few? Get real.

 

maybe they should have talked softly and got him a cool beverage.. maybe played some soothing music..

 

the guy was a scumbag who was on a rampage

who tried to assault another human being..

 

cop or no cop.. I would have done the same thing.. I am trying my best to not make this post about you.. or a personal attack on you.. but I really have no tolerance for people like you.. people who **** and moan about the police every chance they get.. people who want the police to always be wrong.. at the end of the day... you swing some giant chunk of metal at someones head you are exhibiting potentially deadly force.. paying for that with your life is justice..

[GiantsFan 22]

I feel after watching the video that the Police acted appropriately and within reason. Why? because the perp was obviously NOT obeying verbal commands and two, was not brought down by a "stun gun" and lastly, then turned and became more threatening towards the officers. Good shooting in my opinion and nothing less then what that perp deserved. End of story. Now the jackazzes who filmed it with their "colorful" commentary are another story altogether. Just goes to prove that anyone can be a star on places like youtube. Hope they themselves learned something from watching this video. Two shots, five shots, it doesn't matter because you shoot to "stop the threat" (so corrected thanks to Jon below) when you pull the trigger.

 

(Didn't I hear someone yelling "halt" after the fifth or eighth shot??)

 

(And I thank God that the K9 officer chose NOT to put his faithful dog in harms way from a pipe bender.)

[Jon 264]

I feel after watching the video that the Police acted appropriately and within reason. Why? because the perp was obviously NOT obeying verbal commands and two, was not brought down by a "stun gun" and lastly, then turned and became more threatening towards the officers. Good shooting in my opinion and nothing less then what that perp deserved. End of story. Now the jackazzes who filmed it with their "colorful" commentary are another story altogether. Just goes to prove that anyone can be a star on places like youtube. Hope they themselves learned something from watching this video. Two shots, five shots, it doesn't matter because you shoot to stop the threat when you pull the trigger.

 

(And I thank God that the K9 officer chose NOT to put his faithful dog in harms way from a pipe bender.)

 

Fixed.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

Presumably in your hypothetical scenario, I'm a regular guy at my local fast food place with my family, Im lucky enough to CCW, and unlucky enough to run across this guy who raises a pipe bender to my head. Yes, Im absolutely shooting him.

 

But what actually happened, was these are TWO trained LEO, with nonlethal options, a k9, no potential victim in immediate jeapordy, and what appears to be a decent amount of time to possibly have set up their positions a bit more tactically so that their best option wasnt 10 rounds point blank against a dude with no gun.

 

Im not going to defend my position anymore. I realize Im in the minority, and many of you appear ok with this kind of policing in your community. If I offended anyone with my initial comments that I deleted, than I apologize. They were deleted for a reason.

 

 

[sarcasm]these are the people who cause me to love my job[sarcasm] Those who talk a good game but when it hits the fan all their brazen talk goes right out the window and they still become a victim or they don't know when to shut their mouth and talk themselves into a bad situation. You can hate cops I really don't care. There are a lot more like you. Hates cops until something happens. Then we are needed. More of the same old loudmouth tough talk from somebody who thinks they have a clue. Unfortunately this is far to prevalent in our society.

[Soju 153]

These are the people who cause me to love my job. .

 

Care to elaborate? I am confused as to why people who hate cops would make you like being a cop, unless I implied something incorrectly.

 

Edit: I also did not mean to -1 your post. That was done mistakenly. Sorry.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Bonesinium

[SpacemanFry 51]

j0n I could be wrong but I don't see how having 1 prong of a taser in you and one out will deliver any shock to you unless you're barefoot on bare ground or something. You need to complete a circuit in order for electricity to go through. The 2 prongs does that, so that charge goes from one prong to the other and back to the battery. Also if you're grounded 1 prong will deliver some charge from the battery through you to the ground. But most shoes/clothing are insulators and having just 1 prong connect won't complete a circuit so the charge has nowhere to go.

[SpacemanFry 51]

Care to elaborate? I am confused as to why people who hate cops would make you like being a cop, unless I implied something incorrectly.

 

I assume he was being sarcastic.... always the problem with the interwebz, hard to convey inflection in a text post

[vladtepes 1,060]

j0n I could be wrong but I don't see how having 1 prong of a taser in you and one out will deliver any shock to you unless you're barefoot on bare ground or something. You need to complete a circuit in order for electricity to go through. The 2 prongs does that, so that charge goes from one prong to the other and back to the battery. Also if you're grounded 1 prong will deliver some charge from the battery through you to the ground. But most shoes/clothing are insulators and having just 1 prong connect won't complete a circuit so the charge has nowhere to go.

 

I agree.. I THINK that one is + and one is - so both would need to hit?

 

doesn't change the outcome IMO.. but I do think you are right..

[BlueLineFish 615]

Yes. I was being sarcastic. I know it's hard to decipher inflection and sarcasm on the interwebz. I should have noted the sarcasm.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yes. I was being sarcastic. I know it's hard to decipher inflection and sarcasm on the interwebz. I should have noted the sarcasm.

 

you forgot teh sarcasm tags..

 

[sarcasm] Government is run in a very smooth and logical way.. [/sarcasm]

[Soju 153]

Yes. I was being sarcastic. I know it's hard to decipher inflection and sarcasm on the interwebz. I should have noted the sarcasm.

 

Sure is. I've been guilty of sarcasm taken the wrong way too. I'm glad it was sarcastic, or else I would have thought you were the egotistical type who gets off on having authority. Good to hear that isn't the case. My apologies.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Fixed

[chuckdeez 9]

[sarcasm]these are the people who cause me to love my job[sarcasm] Those who talk a good game but when it hits the fan all their brazen talk goes right out the window and they still become a victim or they don't know when to shut their mouth and talk themselves into a bad situation. You can hate cops I really don't care. There are a lot more like you. Hates cops until something happens. Then we are needed. More of the same old loudmouth tough talk from somebody who thinks they have a clue. Unfortunately this is far to prevalent in our society.

 

I dont hate all cops. I dont hate most cops. I dont hate you, or any of the cops on here. Here comes the tired internet line "I have friends who are ___________, in this case LEO" They are absolutely no different from me, other than they get to carry a gun daily. And point me to my tough talk please. I've gotten pretty far in life without having to be 'saved' by anyone. But if I did, the fact I pay taxes, property and otherwise, gives me the luxury of requesting a first responder in good concience. You are taking it personal becasue I criticized members of your profession. Your s/n is Blue Line, I get it. You are proud of your profession. But its not about you. Its about guys like the Ohio CCW cop, and in my opinion, these two guys. Its about this incident and others like it. I shouldve qualified all this from the gate. But yes, we can all move on now. Everyone got their shots in.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Maybe they should've used mace.

Maybe he should've let the German sheppard rip his nutz off.

Maybe they should've used their batons.

Maybe they should've got the 12 gauge with the bean-bag round and put a welt on his stomach.

Maybe the cop in the back should've got cracked upside the head and THEN let his partner put a magazine of hollow points in his chest.

Maybe they should've had another stun gun and tried to light his @$$ up.

 

It was a good SHOT!

[vladtepes 1,060]

I dont hate all cops. I dont hate most cops. I dont hate you, or any of the cops on here. Here comes the tired internet line "I have friends who are ___________, in this case LEO" They are absolutely no different from me, other than they get to carry a gun daily. And point me to my tough talk please. I've gotten pretty far in life without having to be 'saved' by anyone. But if I did, the fact I pay taxes, property and otherwise, gives me the luxury of requesting a first responder in good concience. You are taking it personal becasue I criticized members of your profession. Your s/n is Blue Line, I get it. You are proud of your profession. But its not about you. Its about guys like the Ohio CCW cop, and in my opinion, these two guys. Its about this incident and others like it. I shouldve qualified all this from the gate. But yes, we can all move on now. Everyone got their shots in.

 

 

the ohio cop was a power tripping dbag..

the CA cop was a hero who saved his partners life..

 

your inability to distinguish between the two says all that needs to be said..

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

 

the ohio cop was a power tripping dbag..

the CA cop was a hero who saved his partners life..

 

your inability to distinguish between the two says all that needs to be said..

 

Well said. No need to add anything else.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

 

 

 

the ohio cop was a power tripping dbag..

the CA cop was a hero who saved his partners life..

 

your inability to distinguish between the two says all that needs to be said..

 

This. Nice job Ant.