Scenario question

[O-gre 7]

Assuming I can carry my handgun anywhere on my property. Someone comes onto my property and threatens my family. I shoot and kill them "outside". What happens?

[Jon 264]

Assuming I can carry my handgun anywhere on my property. Someone comes onto my property and threatens my family. I shoot and kill them "outside". What happens?

 

You and your family survived.

[Secret Squirrel 3]

You and your family survived.

 

[JETagent 1]

You and your family survived.

 

^this

[RubberBullets 65]

that and you are probably charged for falling outside the constraints of the castle doctrine... But yes, you and your family live.

[MrSurfboard 1]

In reality, you will be charged, will probably serve time in jail and will never to able to own firearms again. The prosecution will argue you should have retreated into your home and called the police. Welcome to NJ.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Assuming I can carry my handgun anywhere on my property. Someone comes onto my property and threatens my family. I shoot and kill them "outside". What happens?

 

Panicked neighbors call the cops, cops ruin your day by taking your gun, taking you down to the PD, making you re-count everything (hopefully after seeking counsel), asking you shit like "why didn't you run in the house and call 911? why didn't you retreat?", then some prickly-a** DA decides you should be tried for manslaughter, local NJ newspapers call you a trigger-happy dickhead, people comment on nj.com that you have a small dick, eventually charges get dropped, your stuck with thousands of dollars in legal fees, and it takes five more years for the cops to turn your gun over to you...

[ZOMBIE 19]

Panicked neighbors call the cops, cops ruin your day by taking your gun, taking you down to the PD, making you re-count everything (hopefully after seeking counsel), asking you shit like "why didn't you run in the house and call 911? why didn't you retreat?", then some prickly-a** DA decides you should be tried for manslaughter, local NJ newspapers call you a trigger-happy dickhead, people comment on nj.com that you have a small dick, eventually charges get dropped, your stuck with thousands of dollars in legal fees, and it takes five more years for the cops to turn your gun over to you...

 

 

This would be a happy outcome in The Peoples Republic Of nj

[O-gre 7]

Retreating is not an option. I'm thinking there is a knife, gun or some other life taking scenerio. If we can carry outside on our property then we "should" also be able to protect ourselves.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

This would be a happy outcome in The Peoples Republic Of nj

 

Yes, I was also thinking that sounded like a best case scenario.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

This would be a happy outcome in The Peoples Republic Of nj

 

Yeah, the worse alternate is this: during the investigation, the police find your safe full of 'NJ Legal' AR-15s and AKs, and magazines, proceed to forget the laws, overzealous DA sees that you're some kind of gun-nutjob, tacks on Assault Weapons charges and even a few counts of possessing a high-capacity magazines (because they look evil) and possession of hollowpoints (you're branded a psycho in preparation to murder some cops), and you live in a liberal county with a judge who hates you because you dared to act in your own peril and own a gun. You go to jail on a 20 year manslaughter sentence (or some similar length), lose your source of income, lose your house (and all your guns), lose your family, and try to win on appeal... if you get lucky. Even when you do get out, the family of the dead man comes at you with civil suits claiming you caused a wrongful death, literally sucking the last ounces of life out of you until you just want to die.

 

Throughout all this, the media is constantly assassinating your character, and that douchenozzle who used to run Ceasefire NJ partners up with Sen. Menendez and Lautenberg (He's probably a zombie at this point) to crucify you, and use the event to pass a law called "<insert name of dead guy>'s Law" to protect the people of the (not) Great State of NJ from gun hoarding low-lifes like you. The law requires that you can only buy one gun a year, and the magazine limit is dropped to 10. All guns are to be colored fire-engine read and emit loud beeping noises so police may ascertain that you are armed from the next county over.

[rdsmith3 19]

Yeah, the worse alternate is this: during the investigation, the police find your safe full of 'NJ Legal' AR-15s and AKs, and magazines, proceed to forget the laws, overzealous DA sees that you're some kind of gun-nutjob, tacks on Assault Weapons charges and even a few counts of possessing a high-capacity magazines (because they look evil) and possession of hollowpoints (you're branded a psycho in preparation to murder some cops), and you live in a liberal county with a judge who hates you because you dared to act in your own peril and own a gun. You go to jail on a 20 year manslaughter sentence (or some similar length), lose your source of income, lose your house (and all your guns), lose your family, and try to win on appeal... if you get lucky. Even when you do get out, the family of the dead man comes at you with civil suits claiming you caused a wrongful death, literally sucking the last ounces of life out of you until you just want to die.

 

Throughout all this, the media is constantly assassinating your character, and that douchenozzle who used to run Ceasefire NJ partners up with Sen. Menendez and Lautenberg (He's probably a zombie at this point) to crucify you, and use the event to pass a law called "<insert name of dead guy>'s Law" to protect the people of the (not) Great State of NJ from gun hoarding low-lifes like you. The law requires that you can only buy one gun a year, and the magazine limit is dropped to 10. All guns are to be colored fire-engine read and emit loud beeping noises so police may ascertain that you are armed from the next county over.

 

This was hilarious. Well, it would be funny if it weren't true.

[JrzyGuy30 0]

Yeah, the worse alternate is this: during the investigation, the police find your safe full of 'NJ Legal' AR-15s and AKs, and magazines, proceed to forget the laws, overzealous DA sees that you're some kind of gun-nutjob, tacks on Assault Weapons charges and even a few counts of possessing a high-capacity magazines (because they look evil) and possession of hollowpoints (you're branded a psycho in preparation to murder some cops), and you live in a liberal county with a judge who hates you because you dared to act in your own peril and own a gun. You go to jail on a 20 year manslaughter sentence (or some similar length), lose your source of income, lose your house (and all your guns), lose your family, and try to win on appeal... if you get lucky. Even when you do get out, the family of the dead man comes at you with civil suits claiming you caused a wrongful death, literally sucking the last ounces of life out of you until you just want to die.

 

Throughout all this, the media is constantly assassinating your character, and that douchenozzle who used to run Ceasefire NJ partners up with Sen. Menendez and Lautenberg (He's probably a zombie at this point) to crucify you, and use the event to pass a law called "<insert name of dead guy>'s Law" to protect the people of the (not) Great State of NJ from gun hoarding low-lifes like you. The law requires that you can only buy one gun a year, and the magazine limit is dropped to 10. All guns are to be colored fire-engine read and emit loud beeping noises so police may ascertain that you are armed from the next county over.

 

Scary thing is that this could probably happen in NJ..

 

I did laugh my rear off at my desk here seeing this:

You and your family survived.

[PDM 91]

Ask a silly question ... and you get answers like these. The answer is it depends. Were you just threatened or did the person have a firearm? A knife? Did they point it at you? How far were you from your house? Was it a stranger or someone you knew? Did you have an argument with the person before the incident? Etc., etc., etc. Even in NJ, if your life is clearly in imminent danger and you defend yourself you probably won't go to prison and may not even be prosecuted (although there is a good chance you will be arrested, especially if outside your home). The less clear the imminent danger the more likely it becomes you'll wind up behind bars.

 

Personally, it seems to me that the attitude towards self defense should be no different in NJ than it is in Pennsylvania, Georgia or Florida. Outside the home do everything in your power to de-escalate and get away. If someone threatens you verbally try your best to get away -- if close to your house run not walk towards your front door. If actually being attacked with a deadly weapon on your property and you have a firearm, seems to me you have no alternative but to protect yourself and let the chips fall where they may.

[Melgamatic 66]

Ask a silly question ... and you get answers like these. The answer is it depends.

 

This

[O-gre 7]

Yeah, the worse alternate is this: during the investigation, the police find your safe full of 'NJ Legal' AR-15s and AKs, and magazines, proceed to forget the laws, overzealous DA sees that you're some kind of gun-nutjob, tacks on Assault Weapons charges and even a few counts of possessing a high-capacity magazines (because they look evil) and possession of hollowpoints (you're branded a psycho in preparation to murder some cops), and you live in a liberal county with a judge who hates you because you dared to act in your own peril and own a gun. You go to jail on a 20 year manslaughter sentence (or some similar length), lose your source of income, lose your house (and all your guns), lose your family, and try to win on appeal... if you get lucky. Even when you do get out, the family of the dead man comes at you with civil suits claiming you caused a wrongful death, literally sucking the last ounces of life out of you until you just want to die.

 

Throughout all this, the media is constantly assassinating your character, and that douchenozzle who used to run Ceasefire NJ partners up with Sen. Menendez and Lautenberg (He's probably a zombie at this point) to crucify you, and use the event to pass a law called "<insert name of dead guy>'s Law" to protect the people of the (not) Great State of NJ from gun hoarding low-lifes like you. The law requires that you can only buy one gun a year, and the magazine limit is dropped to 10. All guns are to be colored fire-engine read and emit loud beeping noises so police may ascertain that you are armed from the next county over.

 

So sad but probably so true!

[vladtepes 1,060]

or.. you avoid the whole thing by immigrating to America before any of this even happens.. at which point the outcome is the medics come scrape up the body.. the police come and take a statement.. and by 5pm you are at your dinner table eating dinner.

[johnp 45]

You and your family survived.

 

America sounds beautiful

 

Yeah, the worse alternate is this: during the investigation, the police find your safe full of 'NJ Legal' AR-15s and AKs, and magazines, proceed to forget the laws, overzealous DA sees that you're some kind of gun-nutjob, tacks on Assault Weapons charges and even a few counts of possessing a high-capacity magazines (because they look evil) and possession of hollowpoints (you're branded a psycho in preparation to murder some cops), and you live in a liberal county with a judge who hates you because you dared to act in your own peril and own a gun. You go to jail on a 20 year manslaughter sentence (or some similar length), lose your source of income, lose your house (and all your guns), lose your family, and try to win on appeal... if you get lucky. Even when you do get out, the family of the dead man comes at you with civil suits claiming you caused a wrongful death, literally sucking the last ounces of life out of you until you just want to die.

 

Throughout all this, the media is constantly assassinating your character, and that douchenozzle who used to run Ceasefire NJ partners up with Sen. Menendez and Lautenberg (He's probably a zombie at this point) to crucify you, and use the event to pass a law called "<insert name of dead guy>'s Law" to protect the people of the (not) Great State of NJ from gun hoarding low-lifes like you. The law requires that you can only buy one gun a year, and the magazine limit is dropped to 10. All guns are to be colored fire-engine read and emit loud beeping noises so police may ascertain that you are armed from the next county over.

 

Scary thought.

[Malsua 1,422]

In State v Martinez the NJ superior court ruled "a "dwelling" encompasses a doorway, threshold, porch or other similar appurtenance.".

 

If you have a deck this is attached to your home and you are on the deck, you are legally within your home, even though there are not 4 walls and a roof over your head.

 

In this particular case, you need to retreat to your deck to have any chance of avoiding jail time.

[Handyman 5,682]

Here's another scenario. I know what I would like to do, but I am ashamed to say I don't know if would do it...

 

While driving directly home from your practice session at the range (not stopping to eat or go to the bathroom) you see a police officer in distress on the ground at the side of the road. It appears he made a traffice stop. Three young males have gotten out of their vehicle. Two are punching and kicking him in the torso and head and the third is trying to get the officer's gun out of its holster. You are well-trained and have a handgun and plenty of ammo in the trunk.

 

Do you intervene? Or do the only legally defensible thing in NJ and just keep driving on by?

 

Or how about this: After not stopping to help the above officer, you are safely home in your garage and have just finished cleaning your pistol. As you are preparing to case everything up, you hear your next door neighbors screaming. A female goes running into her back yard, covered in blood and slash wounds. Close on her heels is a crazed male with an 11inch chef knife screaming "I am going to kill you!" Though not on your property, this incident is taking place 20 yards away. Do you intervene? Or stay "retreated" in your dwelling as the law asks?

 

Most ranting liberals I know have a help everybody, save the world mentality. I'm sure it would feel nice to save a life, but I'm not sure I am willing to do it if it would risk a prison sentence and cause my family to lose its source of income.

[PK90 3,570]

 

Do you have any morals?

[Handyman 5,682]

 

Do you have any morals?

 

Very few, actually. But in their place, I got a double dose of self-preservation instinct. Unfortunaltely, I'm not in a good financial position to run up a $100,000 legal bill and go to jail. Doing so would cause my family to starve to death. When I was a young, single guy maybe I would have chanced doing the right thing. In NJ, it does not pay to do the right thing - it pays to not get involved. I'm not saying that is a happy state of affairs. Ask Kitty Genovese how she liked the "don't get involved" mindset.

 

I didn't say I would not intervene at all. I would do the legal thing - call the cops and hope for the best when they show up (in 10 minutes). Following the incident, I would also be very happy to explain to the Star Ledger that I probably could have effectively intervened but the laws of our great state would not permit it.

[Qel Hoth 33]

Here's another scenario. I know what I would like to do, but I am ashamed to say I don't know if would do it...

 

While driving directly home from your practice session at the range (not stopping to eat or go to the bathroom) you see a police officer in distress on the ground at the side of the road. It appears he made a traffice stop. Three young males have gotten out of their vehicle. Two are punching and kicking him in the torso and head and the third is trying to get the officer's gun out of its holster. You are well-trained and have a handgun and plenty of ammo in the trunk.

 

Do you intervene? Or do the only legally defensible thing in NJ and just keep driving on by?

 

Or how about this: After not stopping to help the above officer, you are safely home in your garage and have just finished cleaning your pistol. As you are preparing to case everything up, you hear your next door neighbors screaming. A female goes running into her back yard, covered in blood and slash wounds. Close on her heels is a crazed male with an 11inch chef knife screaming "I am going to kill you!" Though not on your property, this incident is taking place 20 yards away. Do you intervene? Or stay "retreated" in your dwelling as the law asks?

 

Most ranting liberals I know have a help everybody, save the world mentality. I'm sure it would feel nice to save a life, but I'm not sure I am willing to do it if it would risk a prison sentence and cause my family to lose its source of income.

 

NJ law also provides for the use of force in protection of others. In which case, the duty to retreat lies on the person you are protecting, not yourself.

 

Since the LEO has no duty to retreat (and in this situation lethal force would be justified as he is unable to retreat), you can help him.

 

In the other case, the woman has a duty to retreat, but if she is unable and/or enters her house, you would be able to use force to protect her.

 

2C:3:5 for the statute.

 

As always IANAL.

[Duppie 73]

I am truly amazed at the vivid imaginations and unlikely scenarios that seem to come up on NJGF when it get a bit slow and there's no other controversial topic than where the poorest county in NJ is located.

Fact is if myself or my family is threatened with imminent deadly violence regardless of location,otherworldly situation or circumstance, I would hope that as I, you would do what ever you see fit to guard their safety without first considering the possible monetary loss.

It's just the right thing to do.....

[O-gre 7]

Here's another scenario. I know what I would like to do, but I am ashamed to say I don't know if would do it...

 

While driving directly home from your practice session at the range (not stopping to eat or go to the bathroom) you see a police officer in distress on the ground at the side of the road. It appears he made a traffice stop. Three young males have gotten out of their vehicle. Two are punching and kicking him in the torso and head and the third is trying to get the officer's gun out of its holster. You are well-trained and have a handgun and plenty of ammo in the trunk.

 

Do you intervene? Or do the only legally defensible thing in NJ and just keep driving on by?

 

Or how about this: After not stopping to help the above officer, you are safely home in your garage and have just finished cleaning your pistol. As you are preparing to case everything up, you hear your next door neighbors screaming. A female goes running into her back yard, covered in blood and slash wounds. Close on her heels is a crazed male with an 11inch chef knife screaming "I am going to kill you!" Though not on your property, this incident is taking place 20 yards away. Do you intervene? Or stay "retreated" in your dwelling as the law asks?

 

Most ranting liberals I know have a help everybody, save the world mentality. I'm sure it would feel nice to save a life, but I'm not sure I am willing to do it if it would risk a prison sentence and cause my family to lose its source of income.

This is my point. Actually argued with the wife over the officer scenario. I can't imagine driving by and not helping however I would probably wind up in jail with a family on welfare! It's just insane!

[Handyman 5,682]

This is my point. Actually argued with the wife over the officer scenario. I can't imagine driving by and not helping however I would probably wind up in jail with a family on welfare! It's just insane!

 

 

Precisely. Read the posts on this forum. People are terrified to drive home from a store with a freaking box of bullets in the car. Law abiding citizens are afraid to have an adjustable stock delivered to their house for the 10 minutes it would take to pin it. It's easy to be a paper (or internet) tiger, but in real life what would you do? If you are terrified of accidently dropping a hollow point in your trunk, would you really shoot someone? It sounds terrible to say, but is it worth the risk to you and your family?

 

To those who think these scenarios are outlandish, I'm not sure what world you live in, but you certainly are not watching the same nightly news I am...

[Handyman 5,682]

Fact is if myself or my family is threatened with imminent deadly violence regardless of location,otherworldly situation or circumstance, I would hope that as I, you would do what ever you see fit to guard their safety without first considering the possible monetary loss.

It's just the right thing to do.....

 

Please read carefully. The fact is neither of my scenarios involved myself or my family. They involved an unrelated neighbor and a police office that I presumably would not know from Adam. Your desire to defend your family is admirable, and I share that desire. I am asking would you risk your family's welfare to defend a stranger?

[Duppie 73]

Precisely. Read the posts on this forum. People are terrified to drive home from a store with a freaking box of bullets in the car. Law abiding citizens are afraid to have an adjustable stock delivered to their house for the 10 minutes it would take to pin it. It's easy to be a paper (or internet) tiger, but in real life what would you do? If you are terrified of accidently dropping a hollow point in your trunk, would you really shoot someone? It sounds terrible to say, but is it worth the risk to you and your family?

 

To those who think these scenarios are outlandish, I'm not sure what world you live in, but you certainly are not watching the same nightly news I am...

Just what news are you watching?......Cops being attacked by men and folks driving by with a firearm and not helping,Jason like attackers accosting female neighbors while someone clean their guns in a open garage,trigger happy dickheads,Panicked neighbors..Your neighbors? I don't subscribe to Fox news and I don't suggest you should either.

[Handyman 5,682]

NJ law also provides for the use of force in protection of others. In which case, the duty to retreat lies on the person you are protecting, not yourself.

 

Since the LEO has no duty to retreat (and in this situation lethal force would be justified as he is unable to retreat), you can help him.

 

In the other case, the woman has a duty to retreat, but if she is unable and/or enters her house, you would be able to use force to protect her.

 

2C:3:5 for the statute.

 

As always IANAL.

 

Interesting. I'm not sure how this would be practically applied.

 

In the police officer scenario, it would be legally defensible for me to load a pistol on a public street and brandish it to drive off the attackers? (Hoping, by the way that other responding officers or armed citizens do not mis-interpret the situation and kill me?) Even if it went well, I'm not sure how this would play out. I can't imagine a jury would convict me, but I don't have $50,000 to give to a lawyer to find out.

 

When the law allows for the protection of "others" is others anyone, or just family members?

 

If I hear people screaming and shot fired three houses down the street, I might have a defensible legal right to arm myself and go to that location?

[Handyman 5,682]

Just what news are you watching?......Cops being attacked by men and folks driving by with a firearm and not helping,Jason like attackers accosting female neighbors while someone clean their guns in a open garage,trigger happy dickheads,Panicked neighbors..Your neighbors? I don't subscribe to Fox news and I don't suggest you should either.

 

Monroe Township must be a utopia - how are the real estate prices?

 

I can think of two very affluent Morris County towns where multiple family members have been killed by a deranged family member. These people had neighbors. Cops never have anyone resist arrest? The episodes you see on the "Cops" TV show are the ones that end happily. The others you read about as a line of duty death in the paper.

 

Hypothetical situations are used to consider how a situation might be addressed in a number of settings, including places like law school, medical school and in the military. If you think these are scenarios are outside of the realm of possibility, I hope that will truly be the case in your life.