Expensive Lessons Learned about Shotgun Configuration

[TheDon 3]

As I removed the rather expensive Mesa Tactical shell carrier from my Mossberg 590-A1 last evening, I thought about all the expensive add-ons that I have installed and removed to my 500 and 590 over the years. I realized that I probably wasted well over $1,500 on pistol grips, tactical stocks, railed foregrips, vertical foregrips, lasers, big honk’n flashlights, shell carriers, mag extensions, slings, a variety of tactical sights, recoil pads, etc., that I no longer use. Most of the stuff ended up being sold online for less than 1/3 of what I paid for it.

 

Both my HD shotguns are now back to pretty much the way they came out of the box. I am back to original stocks, original foregrips, and no clutter. They have top-mounted picatinny rails on the receiver with holographic sights overlooking compact high-lumen flashlights. That is it.

 

I have learned a lot about tactical shotguns over the past 4 years. If I had known then what I know now, I could have saved a bunch of wasted cash. I was curious to know what features others have tried and found to be a either an unnecessary gimmick or not suitable for HD.

[TheDon 3]

I’ll start:

 

Most Unsuitable: Cruiser-style Pistol Grips. You are in your home with kids, wife, and pets. Any weapon discharge needs to be aimed. For shotguns, that means fired from the shoulder with both eyes on target. Shooting from the hip is nonsense.

 

Biggest Gimmick: Adjustable Stocks. You are not going to be adjusting your stock in a HD situation. They just add one more variable to deal with when you can’t afford the time to be mucking around.

 

Second-biggest Gimmick: Shell Carriers and Mag Extension. Unless you are preparing to engage in a running firefight through the hallways of your home while your kids huddle behind their beds, 5+1 rounds of 00-buck should be more than sufficient.

[Dan 177]

Most Unsuitable: Cruiser-style Pistol Grips. You are in your home with kids, wife, and pets. Any weapon discharge needs to be aimed. For shotguns, that means fired from the shoulder with both eyes on target. Shooting from the hip is nonsense.

- I agree, being limited to using the SG in one manner is not that flexible. IMO if you need the SG to be compact, some kind of folding stock would be better.

 

Biggest Gimmick: Adjustable Stocks. You are not going to be adjusting your stock in a HD situation. They just add one more variable to deal with when you can’t afford the time to be mucking around.

- I disagree, an adjustable stock is used to fit the gun to your body type/dimensions. You set it , and forget it. You don't go making adjustments during a SD situation. Why would you?

 

Second-biggest Gimmick: Shell Carriers and Mag Extension. Unless you are preparing to engage in a running firefight through the hallways of your home while your kids huddle behind their beds, 5+1 rounds of 00-buck should be more than sufficient.

- I disagree, IMO, having the highest possible mag capacity in any gun that is still manageable (ergonomics, weight, size, etc) is the best option. Better to have extra loaded rounds and not need them, then to need them and not have them.

[mcbethr 42]

Second-biggest Gimmick: Shell Carriers and Mag Extension. Unless you are preparing to engage in a running firefight through the hallways of your home while your kids huddle behind their beds, 5+1 rounds of 00-buck should be more than sufficient.

 

Hush! Do you want to wake the legislature!

[david8613 69]

im learning this myself right now but with ar, im finding i like my stuff stock from factory... just works better that way...

[Tactical Monkey 51]

IMHO, the best way to learn what works and doesn't - is to take a class or course focused on shotguns used in defensive situations. You will quickly learn what are gimmicks and what accessories are essetial to YOU. Everyone is going to be a little different.

 

But the best way to test hear is under hard use with stress. I'd recommend MDTS Combative Shotgun course, or some other similar offering.

[lunker 274]

Amen. We need a "Get that crap off my shotgun" photo like the AK guys have.

[TheDon 3]

IMHO, the best way to learn what works and doesn't - is to take a class or course focused on shotguns used in defensive situations. You will quickly learn what are gimmicks and what accessories are essetial to YOU. Everyone is going to be a little different.

 

But the best way to test hear is under hard use with stress. I'd recommend MDTS Combative Shotgun course, or some other similar offering.

 

+1

And, if you think these courses are expensive, they are really not. If you compare the cost of a course with the cost of the ammo you will spend training yourself and the money wasted on features you do not really need/want, they are cheap. And, you learn in one day what it took me years to figure out on my own.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

You don't have to spend money to learn....

 

You can do this in 2 easy steps:

 

1) Look at what Ray Ray puts on his Shotguns.

 

2) Don't do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ikidikid

[TheDon 3]

I'll stand corrected and lighten my attitude about collapsible stocks. For me, the LOP of a standard stock fits me just fine and I can take the recoil for far more shells than I will ever fire in a HD situation. So, for me, they are a "tacticool" gimmick.

But others may benefit from adjustible and/or recoil-reducing stocks. I agree they have their place IF they fulfill a function. However, NOT if they are just there for the "tacticool" look.

[mcbethr 42]

Ok, gotta weigh in now that I have time.

 

I only keep one gun for home defense, and its a CX4 Storm. A shotgun would be an option for me, but my wife just can't handle it and she doesn't have the hand strength to rack the slide on a pistol either.

 

Believe it or not, I've always felt that the most important accessory on any weapon is a sling. If I have to pick up my child and run with him to a safe part of the house, it will be a lot easier with a sling. (Not that I envision this, but it is possible)

 

I think an ammunition carrier is also important - an unloaded gun will rapidly become somebody else's gun.

 

I think a flashlight is of least importance, although I would rather have and not need.

 

Ok, one final edit.

 

My CX4 is a franken gun with ammo pouches, a flashlight and a laser. I actually think the laser is very useful - not for helping you shoot, but helping you de-escalate so you don't have to shoot. Everybody has seen "Predator." If a laser dot appears on your chest, you know what is coming next. I don't ever want to have an encounter with a bad guy, but as Sun Tzu said, "To win without fighting is best." So if I can ever get a guy to leave without firing a shot, it's a bonus for both of us.

 

So I wouldn't necessarily discount some of the possible add-ons. I can see an advantage to most of them. Although I agree with you about the cruiser grip...

[silverado427 10,772]

You don't have to spend money to learn....

 

You can do this in 2 easy steps:

 

1) Look at what Ray Ray puts on his Shotguns.

 

2) Don't do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ikidikid

LMAO

[lunker 274]

I have a Ruger PC9. Three 15 round mags of 9mm goodness (one in the rifle, 2 in ammo holder on stock). It is super easy to shoot and as reliable as any Glock. A sling is in my near future for that gun.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I like the collapsable stock on shoguns, that way i can shorten it all the way up for super short LOP and quick pointing for HD use and then fold it out the clay range or hunting. a good friend has one on his 500

 

I also really like the mag extensions. I'll be honest and say that at the current time my HD shotgun is stock but in the near future it will have a collapsable stock and pistol grip, as well as a 14+1 magazine with my chosen HD rounds. More capicity sure isn't going to hurt. as long as the tube isn't longer then the barrel I don't see why not to get what you can.

 

I do agree that all the rails and forend stuff is stupid. If you need anything more then the bead sight on an HD shotgun then there's an issue lol

[Sandy 44]

An informative thread that I will be watching .

 

For me , adjustable stock is ideal. I don't want to buy something brand new and have to permanently alter it. At 4'11 with very short reach , all but the guns meant for the very young do not fit me . And I don;t want a Little Buckaroo lol

 

As for the mag holders..I want to do as much training as possible , and holding additional rounds is a part of said training

 

The situation with aiming and kids in the house. Depending how old your kids are they should know to stay in their rooms or "stay with me" if they are told. Even my son who is not verbal yet would certainly cling to me , hard , if there was trouble in the house. Which is kind of why I want a SG for HD. I may not be able to sight up and then shoot. I may need for point and shoot to be good enough. Which , what I am told , a shotgun is a better bet for for. I'm interested in any input or opinions on that topic for sure.

[alowerlevel 77]

I also really like the mag extensions. I'll be honest and say that at the current time my HD shotgun is stock but in the near future it will have a collapsable stock and pistol grip, as well as a 14+1 magazine with my chosen HD rounds. More capicity sure isn't going to hurt. as long as the tube isn't longer then the barrel I don't see why not to get what you can.

 

HUH? What make and model shotgun do you have? You would probably need a 36+" long barrel to come even with the absurd length of the mag tube needed to hold 14 rounds.

[RedBowTies88 41]

HUH? What make and model shotgun do you have? You would probably need a 36+" long barrel to come even with the absurd length of the mag tube needed to hold 14 rounds.

 

26" barrel. mag tube does not extend beyond the barrel. I use these in my HD shotgun. its 10+1 with 2-3/4

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/738518/aguila-minishell-ammunition-12-gauge-1-3-4-7-8-oz-rifled-slug-box-of-20

 

At the current time in my 5+1 factory tube I can fit 7. They function perfectly. and 400+ grains @ 1250 is something to be reckoned with.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Wow. I may have to see how many i can fit in my ksg

[RedBowTies88 41]

22 by my math, but better start with one box to see if they function. They don't work in more shotguns then they do. they have to have a closed shell elevator and a decent ejector.

 

Also recoil is almost non existant. definitely less then a 2-3/4 target load

[BlueLineFish 615]

Well i have 3 other shotguns so hopefully they work in one of them

[RedBowTies88 41]

They work best in winchester 1200/1300's as i understand. At leats thats what midway says. Mine is a 1200 and its been flawless with them so thats the only feedback i can give.

[TheDon 3]

An informative thread that I will be watching .

 

For me , adjustable stock is ideal. I don't want to buy something brand new and have to permanently alter it. At 4'11 with very short reach , all but the guns meant for the very young do not fit me . And I don;t want a Little Buckaroo lol

 

As for the mag holders..I want to do as much training as possible , and holding additional rounds is a part of said training

 

The situation with aiming and kids in the house. Depending how old your kids are they should know to stay in their rooms or "stay with me" if they are told. Even my son who is not verbal yet would certainly cling to me , hard , if there was trouble in the house. Which is kind of why I want a SG for HD. I may not be able to sight up and then shoot. I may need for point and shoot to be good enough. Which , what I am told , a shotgun is a better bet for for. I'm interested in any input or opinions on that topic for sure.

 

Keep in mind that home invasions are nothing like what is depicted on TV. There will be no one sneaking slowly and quietly up the steps trying not to awaken anyone. Home invasions are fast, chaotic, and violent. You will probably be separated from your children. They should be taught to hide in their rooms. Running to you will put them in more danger and hamper you ability to engage the individuals (yes, plural; home invasions are rarely solo acts) who are invading your home.

[Sandy 44]

We actually had someone try to barge through our backdoor at 5am once . It was super scary. I was younger..in my 20s . I lived at my Grandparents. My grandfather was paranoid by nature so he had drilled a huge slide deadbolt into the floor from the bottom on the door. So as the intruder was trying to break in through the back door the bolt was keeping him out. It was glass panes in the door he had broken and he was trying the knob and bolt with his arm. .He did not know there was a bolt in the floor too and he could not push the door in. I was right next to the door calling 911 while my grandfather was shouting at him to go away , the police were coming. He did not seem to care , he was intent on getting in. I know it would have been BAD had he been able to get through that door .He had our short handled pick ax from our garden shed in his hand ..he had used that to break the glass.Shudder to think what would have happened.

 

I have put a lot of thought into home invasions. I am a big fan of perimeter alarms. I have 2 big dogs that will bark and get aggressive ( just ask the pizza guy who came back in to my house for his pen after I signed the credit card receipt ) Even if they don't stop someone from breaking in , there will be warning. And , we have an alarm system.It is all about buying time so that you can call 911 and get to the safe.

 

The baby is still at an age where he will stay wherever I put him. My daughter will listen to me I think . My 3 year old son isn't quite there yet in the follow directions ability..so he would be a leg hanger. Even a child that is capable of understanding could freeze or not do what they are told or practiced if they are totally panic stricken. Heck , plenty of adults have horrible fight or flight reactions. I think it is wise to consider the scenario that even the best taught child will grip you and not let go if they are told . Know what I mean? It is a good mental exercise to prepare for your kids clinging to you ( especially toddlers ) despite any commands you have taught them or rehearsed.

[TheDon 3]

I think there is no topic with such disparate points of view as HD. I respect everyone’s opinion and understand that the situation in my home is different than the situation in another person’s home.

 

I seriously recommend everyone take a course. The most valuable lesson that I learned was that everything I ever imagined about a home invasion was not realistic. More importantly, I learned how my planning and preparing for those unrealistic scenarios actually hampered my ability to deal with the more probable scenarios.

 

i.e., I used to have a mag extension that gave me 7+1 rounds and I carried another 12 rounds in side saddles on my receiver and stock.

The course I took taught me that home invasions are chaotic and violent. Within 5 seconds, the time it takes to get off a few shots, the perpetrators will either be fleeing or the situation will have disintegrated to hand-to-hand. A 2-round extension is just something to get snagged. You will not be reloading, so carrying another 12 rounds in side saddles is just added weight and clutter to encumber movement. My instructor told me that many experts still consider an old-fashioned double barrel shotgun to be very appropriate for HD because of its simplicity and ease of use under stress. He said that a standard mag tube loaded 5+1 is more than enough for any realistic HD situation.

 

This made sense to me. If me and 2 of my buddies are invading your home, and you shoot one of them, I can’t say whether I would beat feet or rush you. But I can tell you that I am NOT going to go hide in the dark corners and engage in a deadly game of cat-and-mouse. It is fight or flight, not acting out a scene from an action thriller movie.

[TheDon 3]

We actually had someone try to barge through our backdoor at 5am once . It was super scary. I was younger..in my 20s . I lived at my Grandparents. My grandfather was paranoid by nature so he had drilled a huge slide deadbolt into the floor from the bottom on the door. So as the intruder was trying to break in through the back door the bolt was keeping him out. It was glass panes in the door he had broken and he was trying the knob and bolt with his arm. .He did not know there was a bolt in the floor too and he could not push the door in. I was right next to the door calling 911 while my grandfather was shouting at him to go away , the police were coming. He did not seem to care , he was intent on getting in. I know it would have been BAD had he been able to get through that door .He had our short handled pick ax from our garden shed in his hand ..he had used that to break the glass.Shudder to think what would have happened. I have put a lot of thought into home invasions. I am a big fan of perimeter alarms. I have 2 big dogs that will bark and get aggressive ( just ask the pizza guy who came back in to my house for his pen after I signed the credit card receipt ) Even if they don't stop someone from breaking in , there will be warning. And , we have an alarm system.It is all about buying time so that you can call 911 and get to the safe. The baby is still at an age where he will stay wherever I put him. My daughter will listen to me I think . My 3 year old son isn't quite there yet in the follow directions ability..so he would be a leg hanger. Even a child that is capable of understanding could freeze or not do what they are told or practiced if they are totally panic stricken. Heck , plenty of adults have horrible fight or flight reactions. I think it is wise to consider the scenario that even the best taught child will grip you and not let go if they are told . Know what I mean? It is a good mental exercise to prepare for your kids clinging to you ( especially toddlers ) despite any commands you have taught them or rehearsed.

 

WOW! You are lucky to be alive. That must have been a horrible experience.

 

But if you think it through, it is aligned with what I was saying. You were better off hiding than clinging to your grandfather.

 

And, your grandfather was perceived as an non-threat. If he had any kind of firearm the perp would have behaved completely different. The perp would have been forced to decide: flee of direct his attention to your grandfather who was now a threat.

[Sandy 44]

Training is definitely key.The types of training I have done deal with high energy , stress inducing , Israelis screaming at the top of his lungs in your ear hole insulting you and using extremely foul language. It is amazing how you can train for something then it all falls apart during stress. I take every scenario type training course I can find the time for since we have been involved with firearms.

 

As for my grandfather , he would have been better off hiding , not me . He was in his 70s and I was in my 20s and I had my 3 wood in my hand. In hindsight my Rosie II putter would have made a way better weapon. That guy did not stop trying to get in until you heard the police pulling up.

 

My grandfather kept a machete in his bedroom after that .

 

My point is though , kids do weird things under stress. When you talk to them about scenarios , absolutely staying in their rooms is best. But they don't always listen. Age matters too. I think you would be hard pressed to peel a frightened 2 or 3 year old off of you . Probably until the end of their 3rd year they are not going to be very compliant about leaving your side and going into their room if they are terrified . It is a scary thought .

 

Probably a good thing to dry run with your kids , right along with stop drop and roll.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Wow, interesting thread. And quite different from what I would have guessed from the topic heading.

 

To the OP, there's a lot to be said for simplifying, both for our firearms and for life in general.

 

Here's a good article on the HD shotgun:

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/35069-optimizing-the-home-defense-shotgun/

[Cam'mown 0]

I posted a moss berg 590A1 that I was looking at for HD, And after a few weigh-ins from other members and some re-examination.. My mind is changed. I am going to go with the 590A1 w/ Insight Forend light. Gonna skip add-ons, but in the future, I might get the stock w/ 4 shot storage. I also agree.. The more shells you can hold, the better.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I think there is no topic with such disparate points of view as HD. I respect everyone’s opinion and understand that the situation in my home is different than the situation in another person’s home.

 

I seriously recommend everyone take a course. The most valuable lesson that I learned was that everything I ever imagined about a home invasion was not realistic. More importantly, I learned how my planning and preparing for those unrealistic scenarios actually hampered my ability to deal with the more probable scenarios.

 

i.e., I used to have a mag extension that gave me 7+1 rounds and I carried another 12 rounds in side saddles on my receiver and stock.

The course I took taught me that home invasions are chaotic and violent. Within 5 seconds, the time it takes to get off a few shots, the perpetrators will either be fleeing or the situation will have disintegrated to hand-to-hand. A 2-round extension is just something to get snagged. You will not be reloading, so carrying another 12 rounds in side saddles is just added weight and clutter to encumber movement. My instructor told me that many experts still consider an old-fashioned double barrel shotgun to be very appropriate for HD because of its simplicity and ease of use under stress. He said that a standard mag tube loaded 5+1 is more than enough for any realistic HD situation.

 

This made sense to me. If me and 2 of my buddies are invading your home, and you shoot one of them, I can’t say whether I would beat feet or rush you. But I can tell you that I am NOT going to go hide in the dark corners and engage in a deadly game of cat-and-mouse. It is fight or flight, not acting out a scene from an action thriller movie.

 

I don't understand that bit, if it doesn't go beyone the barrel how is it more of a risk of getting snagged? I saw that not using the full legnth of your barrel for the mag tube is silly...its just wasted potential.

 

I could unload 10 rounds from my pump in less then 10 seconds... there could easily be 4 or more invaders at once so i think at least giving me 2 shots per baddie is in order. I'm a decent shot but who knows what will happen under pressure? I sure as hell am not going to fumble with loading more shells in the mag if i run out....ill just be stuck with a sidearm

[TheDon 3]

Wow, interesting thread. And quite different from what I would have guessed from the topic heading.

 

To the OP, there's a lot to be said for simplifying, both for our firearms and for life in general.

 

Here's a good article on the HD shotgun:

http://njgunforums.c...efense-shotgun/

 

No thread that touches on the subject of HD can stay on subject. ;-)

 

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.